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On July 24 2013 11:16 Havik_ wrote:
Its annoying to see a Zerg play so well all game only to lose half their army to one Widow Mine and then fall behind/lose the game.
It's also annoying to see posts like this when Terran can play so well all game only to lose half their army to a few banelings or fungal growths and then fall behind / lose the game.
What? Zergs now have to deal with the same thing Terrans have had to deal with since forever?
I guess it's also annoying to see a Terran play a great game and win, then?
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On July 24 2013 11:29 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 11:16 Havik_ wrote:
Its annoying to see a Zerg play so well all game only to lose half their army to one Widow Mine and then fall behind/lose the game. It's also annoying to see posts like this when Terran can play so well all game only to lose half their army to a few banelings or fungal growths and then fall behind / lose the game. What? Zergs now have to deal with the same thing Terrans have had to deal with since forever? I guess it's also annoying to see a Terran play a great game and win, then?
Somebody is very resentful, can't we all hold hands/claws?
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Maru looked like peak MarineKing come again in that series.
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On July 24 2013 11:19 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 09:57 lichter wrote:On July 24 2013 09:17 Shellshock1122 wrote:On July 24 2013 09:10 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
haha I never understood why so many were selling Bogus short against Soulkey becuase hellbats aren't as good anymore
It's not like his macro, micro, and multitasking capabilities aren't phenomenal as well >_> He wasn't really reliant on hellbats in the matchup either. He was always crushing with bio mine I don't remember him ever using hellbats in anything but TvT The "no hellbats bogus is dead" idea probably came from his beatdown from Bomber, which is, you know, a totally unrelated matchup. The idea came from everyone noticing he used hellbats (like every other Terran). People mistakingly thought he would be worse after hellbats got nerfed. Those same people now think he'd also be worse if mines got nerfed. What people fail to realize is that Innovation has never *not* been in a ro8 or better in a Code S since he entered Code S. This was during WoL. He made a ro8 and a semi-final in two GSL's in WoL when Terran didn't have hellbats, mines or boosted medivacs and Zerg was considered OP. And yet people still think he wins because of some Terran imbalance.
Like I said before, occasionally, we get incredible players who dominate a match-up.
iloveoov had like a 90%+ win rate vZ at one point. Jaedong had prolonged dominance vZ despite the recognized truth that ZvZ was coin flippy. Bisu dominated vZ at a 75% win rate for a full year. Savior destroyed the vT match-up despite every other Zerg getting stomped vT. Flash had a 75% win rate in all his match-ups for like a 3 year period.
It happens. It should be a pleasure to watch regardless of what race you play because this type of excellence is a rarity.
Innovation is one of those players. Some people have just not realized it yet. Perhaps they are too new to RTS games because I suppose we haven't seen something like this in SC2, yet.
To be honest, for something like this to be possible shows that SC2 is maturing as a balanced game, not the opposite. It is balanced that the most skilled player in the game can consistently win in a match-up his skill-set caters to.
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Maru is fast, aggressive, his style is similar to Innovation, basically a younger version of Bogus. Innovation's TvT, meh, Maru should be topdog in the semis.
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On July 24 2013 11:30 sparklyresidue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 11:29 Brian333 wrote:On July 24 2013 11:16 Havik_ wrote:
Its annoying to see a Zerg play so well all game only to lose half their army to one Widow Mine and then fall behind/lose the game. It's also annoying to see posts like this when Terran can play so well all game only to lose half their army to a few banelings or fungal growths and then fall behind / lose the game. What? Zergs now have to deal with the same thing Terrans have had to deal with since forever? I guess it's also annoying to see a Terran play a great game and win, then? Somebody is very resentful, can't we all hold hands/claws?
Zergs started it 
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Eh I feel innovation is as good as any other terran in tvt maybe not overwhelming favorite but certainly not the underdog either. I think innovation could win this whole thing he just looks beastly as usual. Maybe innovation actually deserves to be the number one in the July power ranking?
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On July 24 2013 11:53 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 11:19 vesicular wrote:On July 24 2013 09:57 lichter wrote:On July 24 2013 09:17 Shellshock1122 wrote:On July 24 2013 09:10 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
haha I never understood why so many were selling Bogus short against Soulkey becuase hellbats aren't as good anymore
It's not like his macro, micro, and multitasking capabilities aren't phenomenal as well >_> He wasn't really reliant on hellbats in the matchup either. He was always crushing with bio mine I don't remember him ever using hellbats in anything but TvT The "no hellbats bogus is dead" idea probably came from his beatdown from Bomber, which is, you know, a totally unrelated matchup. The idea came from everyone noticing he used hellbats (like every other Terran). People mistakingly thought he would be worse after hellbats got nerfed. Those same people now think he'd also be worse if mines got nerfed. What people fail to realize is that Innovation has never *not* been in a ro8 or better in a Code S since he entered Code S. This was during WoL. He made a ro8 and a semi-final in two GSL's in WoL when Terran didn't have hellbats, mines or boosted medivacs and Zerg was considered OP. And yet people still think he wins because of some Terran imbalance. Like I said before, occasionally, we get incredible players who dominate a match-up. iloveoov had like a 90%+ win rate vZ at one point. Jaedong had prolonged dominance vZ despite the recognized truth that ZvZ was coin flippy. Bisu dominated vZ at a 75% win rate for a full year. Savior destroyed the vT match-up despite every other Zerg getting stomped vT. Flash had a 75% win rate in all his match-ups for like a 3 year period. It happens. It should be a pleasure to watch regardless of what race you play because this type of excellence is a rarity. Innovation is one of those players. Some people have just not realized it yet. Perhaps they are too new to RTS games because I suppose we haven't seen something like this in SC2, yet. To be honest, for something like this to be possible shows that SC2 is maturing as a balanced game, not the opposite. It is balanced that the most skilled player in the game can consistently win in a match-up his skill-set caters to.
Damn straight, it would be nice to see a player truly rise up and become a titan of the scene. Mvp came close in late 2011. I wonder if Innovation can do the same in 2013 and beyond
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Terran wins Zerg QQ
Zerg wins Terran QQ
THe forever QQ of Teamliquid forums.
The cycle of QQiness will continue, zerg will QQ Terran will QQ
some may actually get this reference
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I really don't see any balance problems in TvZ right now. It's just Innovation doing bogus stuff.
Zergs are just having the problem transitioning to hive tech without losing bases. New strategies are needed, not balance changes.
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Props to Maru (the most sick micro I have seen probably, constant splitting and unburrowing widow mines), but that widow mine in game 4 was just dumb. It killed ~14 banelings from what I could tell. That literally turned the game around. Suddenly Symbol had 700 min/350 gas/7 larvae and a long production time (banelings take 44+ seconds to make including ling production) gone. Maybe widow mines should have a multiple stage AE like a siege tanks splash. 14 units from 1 hit from a single unit.... that hurts. Not to take away anything from Maru though, he played awesome. And symbol shouldve gotten his 4th down much earlier. But still.
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On July 24 2013 16:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Props to Maru (the most sick micro I have seen probably, constant splitting and unburrowing widow mines), but that widow mine in game 4 was just dumb. It killed ~14 banelings from what I could tell. That literally turned the game around. Suddenly Symbol had 700 min/350 gas/7 larvae and a long production time (banelings take 44+ seconds to make including ling production) gone. Maybe widow mines should have a multiple stage AE like a siege tanks splash. 14 units from 1 hit from a single unit.... that hurts. Not to take away anything from Maru though, he played awesome. And symbol shouldve gotten his 4th down much earlier. But still.
If you manage to get your widowmine under a perfect clump of banes and target manually the middle one, you can kill up to 35 banes with one shot. You lose the mine though. [edit: source: Unit test map]
Will never happen in a GSL/SPL pro game, but it could in foreign tournaments.
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On July 24 2013 16:37 gingerfluffmuff wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 16:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Props to Maru (the most sick micro I have seen probably, constant splitting and unburrowing widow mines), but that widow mine in game 4 was just dumb. It killed ~14 banelings from what I could tell. That literally turned the game around. Suddenly Symbol had 700 min/350 gas/7 larvae and a long production time (banelings take 44+ seconds to make including ling production) gone. Maybe widow mines should have a multiple stage AE like a siege tanks splash. 14 units from 1 hit from a single unit.... that hurts. Not to take away anything from Maru though, he played awesome. And symbol shouldve gotten his 4th down much earlier. But still. If you manage to get your widowmine under a perfect clump of banes and target manually the middle one, you can kill up to 35 banes with one shot. You lose the mine though. [edit: source: Unit test map] Will never happen in a GSL/SPL pro game, but it could in foreign tournaments.
Haha, that is ridiculous. Definitely needs a secondary AE to limit that a bit. HT need 133 in-game seconds to go from 0 energy to 75 energy for 1 storm.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On July 24 2013 21:27 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 16:37 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On July 24 2013 16:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Props to Maru (the most sick micro I have seen probably, constant splitting and unburrowing widow mines), but that widow mine in game 4 was just dumb. It killed ~14 banelings from what I could tell. That literally turned the game around. Suddenly Symbol had 700 min/350 gas/7 larvae and a long production time (banelings take 44+ seconds to make including ling production) gone. Maybe widow mines should have a multiple stage AE like a siege tanks splash. 14 units from 1 hit from a single unit.... that hurts. Not to take away anything from Maru though, he played awesome. And symbol shouldve gotten his 4th down much earlier. But still. If you manage to get your widowmine under a perfect clump of banes and target manually the middle one, you can kill up to 35 banes with one shot. You lose the mine though. [edit: source: Unit test map] Will never happen in a GSL/SPL pro game, but it could in foreign tournaments. Haha, that is ridiculous. Definitely needs a secondary AE to limit that a bit. HT need 133 in-game seconds to go from 0 energy to 75 energy for 1 storm.
you'll need to target for that though which requires constant attention and can be hard to do.
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It seems to me that people forget that moment around 14.20 when Soulkey did a huge blunder for such high level of play. He went up the ramp without detection and high ground vision and lost a ton of banes to widow mine hits. You cant really blame luck or extreme unforgivingness for that mistake. Same thing would happen to terran who would go with bio up the ramp and get chain-fungaled to death, or stormed for that matter.
From that point he lost his 4th base and Innovation established his fourth.
Then, when SK managed to take map control and put pressure on Inno with his mutas, he didn't expand to get ahead in economy and/or tried to go to hive and get 3-3. Innovation was completely on the defensive at that point. SK was always even or behind in bases compared to Innovation.
Finally, in the second big fight, he keeps his mutas at Inno's 4th base and Innovation kills his 4th, almost all his ling-bane and gets a cancel on SK's 5th base and loses only a PF in that trade (and he already has another CC in production). Maybe it would be a better move to kill some workers at Innovation's 4th and then flank the medivacs from behind with mass muta. After that it was maxed Innovation with all his medivacs and 3-3 upgrades vs. 170 supply zerg army on 2-2.
So as I see that game, Soulkey did at least 3 big mistakes and you cant really do that and expect to win against Innovations TvZ.
Only possible problem I see in TvZ is transition from lair to hive for zergs but this game was not a game that could support that because I think Soulkey could keep his 4th or at least stall enough to get a 4th in different location so he can transfer drones as soon as it falls. TvZ these days revolves around terran trying to deny the 4th base of zerg. If he succeeds he will usually win the game. If he fails, zerg will get his hive tech and 3-3 upgrades out and be in advantageous position.
At least that is how I see it, feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong.
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The sign of a top player is to single handedly get the hellbat nerfed, and then cause outcries from Zerg everywhere about imbalance, when stats show the matchup is as close to balanced as practically possible.
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On July 24 2013 04:23 LighT. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 04:16 Luolis wrote:On July 24 2013 04:12 LighT. wrote:On July 24 2013 03:40 massivez wrote:On July 24 2013 03:35 Fearest wrote:
Innovation, the most consistent Terran I have EVER seen, dated back from WoL. He is the best and balance should not be balanced around HIM. Look how Blizzard balanced Terran around MVP end of WoL, it was horrible and made ALL terran unable to compete.
I agree, and i disagree about nerfing specific units at this point. They just need to look at maps and vary them up a bit cause most have easy to get thirds. Nerfing isnt needed from what I see. and the changes I want blizzard to make..will likely be implemented in LotV (aka..get rid of the freakin zzz colosseus) and make terran not have to resort to t1 units even 50 minutes into the game. Maps are a problem though... The proleague playoffs is a prime example of this. All maps seems to favor one race over another leading to a lot of mirror match ups and unfavorable conditions. One of the best things about BW was with Sniper Ridge/FS/Match point and WoL with CK,Daybreak, you had a few maps where no race did not have a distinct advantage going into the map. As of HoTS, I feel you only see this in Whirlwind and Planet S. lol saying daybreak wasnt Z favored... It isnt as soon as they nerfedf that bs known as the gg-insta kill death ball army of zerg.
fair enough i guess i just hate that map after that year ^^
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On July 24 2013 12:17 rshawer wrote:
Terran wins Zerg QQ
Zerg wins Terran QQ
THe forever QQ of Teamliquid forums.
The cycle of QQiness will continue, zerg will QQ Terran will QQ
some may actually get this reference
That's why the website is called team liquid. We cry as a team.
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On July 24 2013 23:00 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 12:17 rshawer wrote:
Terran wins Zerg QQ
Zerg wins Terran QQ
THe forever QQ of Teamliquid forums.
The cycle of QQiness will continue, zerg will QQ Terran will QQ
some may actually get this reference That's why the website is called team liquid. We cry as a team.
You cant be the first who said that. Its genius!
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TLADT24920 Posts
On July 24 2013 21:54 Qwerty85 wrote:
It seems to me that people forget that moment around 14.20 when Soulkey did a huge blunder for such high level of play. He went up the ramp without detection and high ground vision and lost a ton of banes to widow mine hits. You cant really blame luck or extreme unforgivingness for that mistake. Same thing would happen to terran who would go with bio up the ramp and get chain-fungaled to death, or stormed for that matter.
From that point he lost his 4th base and Innovation established his fourth.
Then, when SK managed to take map control and put pressure on Inno with his mutas, he didn't expand to get ahead in economy and/or tried to go to hive and get 3-3. Innovation was completely on the defensive at that point. SK was always even or behind in bases compared to Innovation.
Finally, in the second big fight, he keeps his mutas at Inno's 4th base and Innovation kills his 4th, almost all his ling-bane and gets a cancel on SK's 5th base and loses only a PF in that trade (and he already has another CC in production). Maybe it would be a better move to kill some workers at Innovation's 4th and then flank the medivacs from behind with mass muta. After that it was maxed Innovation with all his medivacs and 3-3 upgrades vs. 170 supply zerg army on 2-2.
So as I see that game, Soulkey did at least 3 big mistakes and you cant really do that and expect to win against Innovations TvZ.
Only possible problem I see in TvZ is transition from lair to hive for zergs but this game was not a game that could support that because I think Soulkey could keep his 4th or at least stall enough to get a 4th in different location so he can transfer drones as soon as it falls. TvZ these days revolves around terran trying to deny the 4th base of zerg. If he succeeds he will usually win the game. If he fails, zerg will get his hive tech and 3-3 upgrades out and be in advantageous position.
At least that is how I see it, feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong.
you forgot the major blunder in their final engagement in game #1 where Soulkey left his mutas and infestors behind and went in with 4-5 ultras against Innovation's MMMM. He should've funglaed all those since he had the energy but for some reason, he didn't and only fungaled after the ultras were pretty much dead leaving only queens+mutas with infestor support against a large MMM force = GG. I have to say after watching that, he played pretty well throughout the game but that blunder was the killing blow.
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EPT
