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[SPL] Team 8 vs. EG-TL R5 - Page 20
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intmastad
Korea (South)38 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:32 ZenithM wrote: I'm not even a fanboy man, I really don't care :D But what european player do you honestly see competing better than HerO vs someone like Ty? Maybe Jürgen, I'll give you that. Jürgen's pretty good, those Germans have potential | ||
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Shantastic
United States435 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:31 ZenithM wrote: Terran units are all ranged, so it makes sense to put a melee buffer in front of them, they can still all fire. A good Protoss army has chargelots, like you said, so either the probes, or the zealots can't attack, so it's not really a plus to have probes in your army. And they will be wiped out by Terran's ranged units very very quickly. Another example: you don't see SCV pulls (as a non-desperate move :D) past the early game in TvT, because it just doesn't work, they don't tank against anything, and die instantly anyway. In the end, it all comes down to the fact that Terran is a pure ranged race, but not the other two. I'm talking about a situation like we JUST saw where the probes aren't contributing anything. Once the Chargelots die, the probes reinforce with limited melee damage, and it takes the Terran army just a bit longer to get to the ranged units OR it costs a bit more stim-time to kite the army. If the best argument against that is that you can storm your own probes which otherwise would be dead supply anyway, I have yet to hear why a Protoss doesn't reinforce chargelot with probe-tanking in an all-or-nothing scenario. | ||
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Penev
28503 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:28 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Should I remind you about EG-TL players performance during DreamHack? Should I remind you about overall chances in bo1 format? Fanboys are so cute :D The "fanboys are so cute" reveals your troll attempt. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:33 Shantastic wrote: I'm talking about a situation like we JUST saw where the probes aren't contributing anything. Once the Chargelots die, the probes reinforce with limited melee damage, and it takes the Terran army just a bit longer to get to the ranged units. If the best argument against that is that you can storm your own probes which otherwise would be dead supply anyway, I have yet to hear why a Protoss doesn't reinforce chargelot with probe-tanking in an all-or-nothing scenario. Some pros do pull probes when there is absolutely no mining possible. It doesn't happen often because it is always better to mine a little than use probes to fight. Best pro probe puller is Naniwa maybe you should ask him about it :p | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:33 Shantastic wrote: I'm talking about a situation like we JUST saw where the probes aren't contributing anything. Once the Chargelots die, the probes reinforce with limited melee damage, and it takes the Terran army just a bit longer to get to the ranged units OR it costs a bit more stim-time to kite the army. If the best argument against that is that you can storm your own probes which otherwise would be dead supply anyway, I have yet to hear why a Protoss doesn't reinforce chargelot with probe-tanking in an all-or-nothing scenario. Because there's literally no such thing as an all-or-nothing scenario where you only have 17 excess probes past 6 minutes | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:33 Shantastic wrote: I'm talking about a situation like we JUST saw where the probes aren't contributing anything. Once the Chargelots die, the probes reinforce with limited melee damage, and it takes the Terran army just a bit longer to get to the ranged units. If the best argument against that is that you can storm your own probes which otherwise would be dead supply anyway, I have yet to hear why a Protoss doesn't reinforce chargelot with probe-tanking in an all-or-nothing scenario. In most offensive cases you prefer pulling back when your zealots are dead, wait for the round of warp-ins and minerals (mined by, tadam, the probes :D), remake zealots and go again. In defense, against a Terran all-in for example, you actually do see probe pulls when the situation is desperate enough. | ||
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:32 ZenithM wrote: I'm not even a fanboy man, I really don't care :D But what european player do you honestly see competing better than HerO vs someone like Ty? Maybe Jürgen, I'll give you that. Every strong TvTer and also top zerg possibly could, stop underestimating European top tier players, yes, overall Koreans are much stronger, but looking at the EG-TL results i rather call them a typical code A players, that has nothing special in comparison to top europeans. Also this is just my humble opinion and I might be wrong. | ||
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Shantastic
United States435 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:36 ZenithM wrote: In most offensive cases you prefer pulling back when your zealots are dead, wait for the round of warp-ins and minerals (mined by, tadam, the probes :D), remake zealots and go again. In defense, against a Terran all-in for example, you actually do see probe pulls when the situation is desperate enough. Again, the probes don't mine the minerals, because they would oversaturate your mining bases. With so many maps with far enough thirds, that the distance mining gives you maybe 1 extra zealot, I fail to see a reason not to reinforce with deadweight probes. | ||
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intmastad
Korea (South)38 Posts
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Shantastic
United States435 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:38 intmastad wrote: Code b player such as mvp can even win foreign league Performance and capability are two faaaaar different things. Mvp can beat pretty much any Korean pro, but his performance in Korean individual leagues is lacking. He has always been stronger in foreign leagues, though, even against those who perform better than him in Korean leagues. | ||
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slowbacontron
United States7722 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:36 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Every strong TvTer and also top zerg possibly could, stop underestimating European top tier players, yes, overall Koreans are much stronger, but looking at the EG-TL results i rather call them a typical code A players, that has nothing special in comparison to top europeans. Also this is just my humble opinion and I might be wrong. But what teams are you even thinking of? Karonte with only 2 really good players wouldn't even be able to finish off a Proleague match. Mill has ForGG and a rising Dayshi, but aside from ForGG I don't think anyone there has even shown the ability to win an adequate percent of the time against Koreans. Similar for mouz. | ||
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:38 intmastad wrote: Code b player such as mvp can even win foreign league Top Proleague players such as EG-TL can compete even in a weakest WCS region, oh wait, weren't they in code B before? | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:36 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Every strong TvTer and also top zerg possibly could, stop underestimating European top tier players, yes, overall Koreans are much stronger, but looking at the EG-TL results i rather call them a typical code A players, that has nothing special in comparison to top europeans. Also this is just my humble opinion and I might be wrong. "Typical Code A players" are much stronger than most top EU players anyway. It's really not the same class of players. I think you confuse top Korean players (a lot of them are in Code A :D) with players like Tails, Shuttle etc.. | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:40 Shantastic wrote: Performance and capability are two faaaaar different things. Mvp can beat pretty much any Korean pro, but his performance in Korean individual leagues is lacking. He has always been stronger in foreign leagues, though, even against those who perform better than him in Korean leagues. what are you saying ;o mvp was always " weaker " in foreign tournaments, and best in GSL where he could prepare for each series after the ro16. wcs eu is kind of like GSL, so It's not surprising he would do well there. | ||
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:45 Dodgin wrote: what are you saying ;o mvp was always " weaker " in foreign tournaments, and best in GSL where he could prepare for each series after the ro16. wcs eu is kind of like GSL, so It's not surprising he would do well there. They forgot about "King of Wings". Btw, was it MKP as the last player who never falled in code A from code S since the first season? | ||
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Shantastic
United States435 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:45 Dodgin wrote: what are you saying ;o mvp was always " weaker " in foreign tournaments, and best in GSL where he could prepare for each series after the ro16. wcs eu is kind of like GSL, so It's not surprising he would do well there. Fine, let me reword. He has recently been better in foreign leagues. Unless you've seen him in ro8 many times recently, and I just slept through the last couple seasons of GSL. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:50 Shantastic wrote: Fine, let me reword. He has recently been better in foreign leagues. Unless you've seen him in ro8 many times recently, and I just slept through the last couple seasons of GSL. I didn't even understand your "even against those who perform better than him in Korean leagues". Were you talking about foreigners there? Because there aren't foreigners that can compete in Korean leagues anymore past, let's say, the very first round of Code A. | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:50 Shantastic wrote: Fine, let me reword. He has recently been better in foreign leagues. Unless you've seen him in ro8 many times recently, and I just slept through the last couple seasons of GSL. Recently, yeah. But I believe that was more to his worsening physical condition at the end of WoL than a change in what kind of tournament he is better at. He seems to not be having too many health issues right now, and is performing well again because of it. | ||
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Shantastic
United States435 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:53 ZenithM wrote: I didn't even understand your "even against those who perform better than him in Korean leagues". Were you talking about foreigners there? Because there aren't foreigners that can compete in Korean leagues anymore past, let's say, the very first round of Code A. I just typically saw him perform better against top eSF Koreans in foreign tournaments than in Korean tournaments. I mean, he was great in Code S last season, but I just felt like the players he faced in both foreign and Korean tourneys, he had better results against them in the foreign matches. But hey, maybe it's just how the stats happened to spread. I'd still say someone like Stephano has the ability to compete with the Ro32. Remember that not all of Code S is top-tier KeSPA pro (or Life). Many Code S players can be beaten by the top foreigners without a doubt. | ||
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