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On May 27 2013 02:47 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 02:45 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 27 2013 02:43 Greendotz wrote:On May 27 2013 02:41 Batssa wrote:
Good games. Stephano's got this shit. As per cheesing, the idea of a zerg "cheesing" is usually defined by the zerg player not having 12 bases and 90 drones. That's clearly an eco-cheese. Very abusive play A cheese is a play defined as: "Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies in large parts on lack of information and/or psychological impact on the opponent. Cheese build orders typically revolve around an early attack that, if undetected, is more difficult to defend than execute." http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/CheeseExamples of cheese from above article: + Show Spoiler +Cannon Rush (Protoss) - Building a Forge before the Gateway while placing one or more Pylons in the enemy mineral line, followed by Photon Cannons to stop mining and eliminate any army resistance that may have been established. There are also variations which place a proxy pylon in other locations inside the other player's base.
Proxy BBS- If scouted in time can be defended, but extremely hard to defend against if it comes at a surprise. No longer possible in SC2. The new proxy is SBB, usually against Zerg for early marine pressure, and combined with bunkers.
Proxy Gateway - building a gateway in the opponent's base and Chronoboosting out the first Zealot in order to kill the opposing workers.
Worker Rush - A worker rush is when you take all of your starting SCVs/Probes/Drones to the enemy base and attack everything there.
Aggressive Pool First - Where a Zerg player immediately creates a Spawning Pool at the beginning of the game and produces Zerglings to rush the enemy before they have any defences up.
Proxy Hatchery - A ramp assault using queens and Spine Crawlers can occur in ZvP when a Zerg places a hatchery in his opponent's expansion, and uses the creep spread to plant the spinecrawlers. The hatchery also allows faster unit attack after production, as well as queen production. A three base all-in isn't a cheese. It can be easily be scouted, it doesn't rely on a lack of information and it certainly doesn't rely on an early undetected attack. Look at the above examples. Zerg doesn't really have a reliable cheese against Terran, but the 11/11 or 12/13 whatever Terran does. You should discuss this with one of these four guys: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Kwanrohttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Julyhttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Lifehttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Symbol
It's not an unexpected strategy in 3/4 cases here. And it's not unexpected when your zerglings are invulnerable either. 
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Isn't the CC misplaced?
doesn't mind. Terran.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On May 27 2013 02:48 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 02:47 govie wrote:On May 27 2013 02:45 TheDwf wrote:On May 27 2013 02:44 Derez wrote:On May 27 2013 02:43 Zealously wrote:On May 27 2013 02:41 broodmann wrote:On May 27 2013 02:39 Zealously wrote:
I won't bother, actually ForGG hasnt exactly been crushing his way to the semi finals He's looked decidedly sub-par at times, I know. It still doesn't justify random forum-goers calling him "bad", "unskilled" and whatnot. I can accept criticising his build orders or a specific part of his play, but if he was so bad he wouldn't be in the semifinals of WCS EU. I wish more people would understand that -.- ForGG might reach sniper levels of hatred if he takes out innovation at the global finals ;p. Let this never happen. I think forgg is best of the world in tvt and would kill any korean terran. Other matchups he is mediocre pro (which still is really high level, but ofcourse less then his tvt and therefore he will not win big final). I'd put Ryung, Polt, Flash, Innovation, sC and ty up against ForGG any day of the week.
Innovation's TvT is far from convincing in TvT. At times he looks really good, at times he loses to... Turn
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On May 27 2013 02:49 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 02:49 Silvanel wrote:On May 27 2013 02:47 zanga wrote:I'm sorry to complain but to me this is a major downer in terms of studio setup. 10 people in the audience for what is basically a Code S final? Is this some kind of trolling/joke  ? For instance: I'm pretty sure it could be 10x sicker with an arena by Dreamhack filled with an audience wishing to watch Mvp. The games are great, casting awesome and a good host - but everything else.... Anyone agreeing, or disagreeing? What do you think? Its one thing traveling acros Europe for huge event like dreamhack (different games, few days and so on). Traveling across Europe for one match? Only hardcore fans and those close by would do that. Good call in my opinion. It does seem to work for Iron Squid though.
but ironsquid is more like a huge show than a tournament, so i don't know if we can compare
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On May 27 2013 02:49 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 02:47 govie wrote:On May 27 2013 02:45 TheDwf wrote:On May 27 2013 02:44 Derez wrote:On May 27 2013 02:43 Zealously wrote:On May 27 2013 02:41 broodmann wrote:On May 27 2013 02:39 Zealously wrote:
I won't bother, actually ForGG hasnt exactly been crushing his way to the semi finals He's looked decidedly sub-par at times, I know. It still doesn't justify random forum-goers calling him "bad", "unskilled" and whatnot. I can accept criticising his build orders or a specific part of his play, but if he was so bad he wouldn't be in the semifinals of WCS EU. I wish more people would understand that -.- ForGG might reach sniper levels of hatred if he takes out innovation at the global finals ;p. Let this never happen. I think forgg is best of the world in tvt and would kill any korean terran. Other matchups he is mediocre pro (which still is really high level, but ofcourse less then his tvt and therefore he will not win big final). Hard to say if he's the best without seeing him play vs the big guns in Korea. Could easily see Flash, Gumibear, Taeja etc give him a run for his money!
Flash and Innovation would stomp ForGG, lets not kid ourselves.
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On May 27 2013 02:50 Ysellian wrote:
Isn't the CC misplaced?
Your eyes are abusing you.
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I wish they would stop talking about normal APM numbers.
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United States5225 Posts
On May 27 2013 02:47 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 02:45 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 27 2013 02:43 Greendotz wrote:On May 27 2013 02:41 Batssa wrote:
Good games. Stephano's got this shit. As per cheesing, the idea of a zerg "cheesing" is usually defined by the zerg player not having 12 bases and 90 drones. That's clearly an eco-cheese. Very abusive play A cheese is a play defined as: "Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies in large parts on lack of information and/or psychological impact on the opponent. Cheese build orders typically revolve around an early attack that, if undetected, is more difficult to defend than execute." http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/CheeseExamples of cheese from above article: + Show Spoiler +Cannon Rush (Protoss) - Building a Forge before the Gateway while placing one or more Pylons in the enemy mineral line, followed by Photon Cannons to stop mining and eliminate any army resistance that may have been established. There are also variations which place a proxy pylon in other locations inside the other player's base.
Proxy BBS- If scouted in time can be defended, but extremely hard to defend against if it comes at a surprise. No longer possible in SC2. The new proxy is SBB, usually against Zerg for early marine pressure, and combined with bunkers.
Proxy Gateway - building a gateway in the opponent's base and Chronoboosting out the first Zealot in order to kill the opposing workers.
Worker Rush - A worker rush is when you take all of your starting SCVs/Probes/Drones to the enemy base and attack everything there.
Aggressive Pool First - Where a Zerg player immediately creates a Spawning Pool at the beginning of the game and produces Zerglings to rush the enemy before they have any defences up.
Proxy Hatchery - A ramp assault using queens and Spine Crawlers can occur in ZvP when a Zerg places a hatchery in his opponent's expansion, and uses the creep spread to plant the spinecrawlers. The hatchery also allows faster unit attack after production, as well as queen production. A three base all-in isn't a cheese. It can be easily be scouted, it doesn't rely on a lack of information and it certainly doesn't rely on an early undetected attack. No, something like 3-bases lings/banes/roaches attacks are in no way "easily scouted" but they do rely on a lack of information to work (otherwise Terran bunkers and/or Tanks and holds easily, e. g. Bogus vs Symbol on Whirlwind).
They are easily scouted, at that point in the game the Terran can scan and can get Hellions and map control, and if the player tries to get information, they'll usually figure it out. It'd be like a Protoss switching from Colossus to High Templar, at the point of the game that it happens, the Terran has the tools to scout it. Whether or not they utilize them, is a different story entirely.
This is contrasted to a 6 pool which can't be scouted before it is happening, since the build begins at the start of the game. And it is why all standard openings account for it.
Basically we are arguing semantics and definitions. What TLO did was an all-in, but it wasn't cheesy in my view. The 11/11 is cheesy and an all-in.
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Pretty bad lag now, I think it really messes with the viewer count at this point, if I am not a hardcore starcraft fan and I stumble on this stream, I wouldn't keep watching with this lag even if it seems interesting. Really looking forward to the 3 new twitch servers in EU.
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On May 27 2013 02:47 zanga wrote:I'm sorry to complain but to me this is a major downer in terms of studio setup. 10 people in the audience for what is basically a Code S final? Is this some kind of trolling/joke ? For instance: I'm pretty sure it could be 10x sicker with an arena by Dreamhack filled with an audience wishing to watch Mvp. The games are great, casting awesome and a good host - but everything else.... Anyone agreeing, or disagreeing? What do you think?
A bigger venue for the finals would be nice, yeah. next time hopefully?
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On May 27 2013 02:49 Purpose88 wrote:
Why do they always say that? Neither ForGG or even MC has "fantastic" english. We europeans have pretty solid english. Koreans all have pretty broken english, if they even speak english.
DRG has a good english !
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On May 27 2013 02:50 Makro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 02:49 DJHelium wrote:On May 27 2013 02:49 Silvanel wrote:On May 27 2013 02:47 zanga wrote:I'm sorry to complain but to me this is a major downer in terms of studio setup. 10 people in the audience for what is basically a Code S final? Is this some kind of trolling/joke ? For instance: I'm pretty sure it could be 10x sicker with an arena by Dreamhack filled with an audience wishing to watch Mvp. The games are great, casting awesome and a good host - but everything else.... Anyone agreeing, or disagreeing? What do you think? Its one thing traveling acros Europe for huge event like dreamhack (different games, few days and so on). Traveling across Europe for one match? Only hardcore fans and those close by would do that. Good call in my opinion. It does seem to work for Iron Squid though. but ironsquid is more like a huge show than a tournament, so i don't know if we can compare
Now imagine that show with White-Ra as a bartender.
Oh yes!
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On May 27 2013 02:50 TheDwf wrote:Your eyes are abusing you.
haha I had the stream on mute and was like WTF? But then I realized Terran XD
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On May 27 2013 02:50 petered wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 02:49 DJHelium wrote:On May 27 2013 02:47 govie wrote:On May 27 2013 02:45 TheDwf wrote:On May 27 2013 02:44 Derez wrote:On May 27 2013 02:43 Zealously wrote:On May 27 2013 02:41 broodmann wrote:On May 27 2013 02:39 Zealously wrote:
I won't bother, actually ForGG hasnt exactly been crushing his way to the semi finals He's looked decidedly sub-par at times, I know. It still doesn't justify random forum-goers calling him "bad", "unskilled" and whatnot. I can accept criticising his build orders or a specific part of his play, but if he was so bad he wouldn't be in the semifinals of WCS EU. I wish more people would understand that -.- ForGG might reach sniper levels of hatred if he takes out innovation at the global finals ;p. Let this never happen. I think forgg is best of the world in tvt and would kill any korean terran. Other matchups he is mediocre pro (which still is really high level, but ofcourse less then his tvt and therefore he will not win big final). Hard to say if he's the best without seeing him play vs the big guns in Korea. Could easily see Flash, Gumibear, Taeja etc give him a run for his money! Flash and Innovation would stomp ForGG, lets not kid ourselves.
He would probably be able to take a one game with his wonky mass helion timing and that would be it.
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Man, I love that apm cam.
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On May 27 2013 02:49 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 02:47 govie wrote:On May 27 2013 02:45 TheDwf wrote:On May 27 2013 02:44 Derez wrote:On May 27 2013 02:43 Zealously wrote:On May 27 2013 02:41 broodmann wrote:On May 27 2013 02:39 Zealously wrote:
I won't bother, actually ForGG hasnt exactly been crushing his way to the semi finals He's looked decidedly sub-par at times, I know. It still doesn't justify random forum-goers calling him "bad", "unskilled" and whatnot. I can accept criticising his build orders or a specific part of his play, but if he was so bad he wouldn't be in the semifinals of WCS EU. I wish more people would understand that -.- ForGG might reach sniper levels of hatred if he takes out innovation at the global finals ;p. Let this never happen. I think forgg is best of the world in tvt and would kill any korean terran. Other matchups he is mediocre pro (which still is really high level, but ofcourse less then his tvt and therefore he will not win big final). Hard to say if he's the best without seeing him play vs the big guns in Korea. Could easily see Flash, Gumibear, Taeja etc give him a run for his money!
He has beaten Taeja twice in HotS
http://aligulac.com/results/search/?op=search&after=&before=&players=taeja
forgg
&eventtext=&bo=all&offline=both&game=HotS
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On May 27 2013 02:48 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 02:47 govie wrote:On May 27 2013 02:45 TheDwf wrote:On May 27 2013 02:44 Derez wrote:On May 27 2013 02:43 Zealously wrote:On May 27 2013 02:41 broodmann wrote:On May 27 2013 02:39 Zealously wrote:
I won't bother, actually ForGG hasnt exactly been crushing his way to the semi finals He's looked decidedly sub-par at times, I know. It still doesn't justify random forum-goers calling him "bad", "unskilled" and whatnot. I can accept criticising his build orders or a specific part of his play, but if he was so bad he wouldn't be in the semifinals of WCS EU. I wish more people would understand that -.- ForGG might reach sniper levels of hatred if he takes out innovation at the global finals ;p. Let this never happen. I think forgg is best of the world in tvt and would kill any korean terran. Other matchups he is mediocre pro (which still is really high level, but ofcourse less then his tvt and therefore he will not win big final). I'd put Ryung, Polt, Flash, Innovation, sC and ty up against ForGG any day of the week.
Big names! but he already beat alot of big names! Well we will see in wcs finals how he fares against other korean terrans!
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United States33667 Posts
ECO CHEESE 
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On May 27 2013 02:50 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 02:48 stuchiu wrote:On May 27 2013 02:47 govie wrote:On May 27 2013 02:45 TheDwf wrote:On May 27 2013 02:44 Derez wrote:On May 27 2013 02:43 Zealously wrote:On May 27 2013 02:41 broodmann wrote:On May 27 2013 02:39 Zealously wrote:
I won't bother, actually ForGG hasnt exactly been crushing his way to the semi finals He's looked decidedly sub-par at times, I know. It still doesn't justify random forum-goers calling him "bad", "unskilled" and whatnot. I can accept criticising his build orders or a specific part of his play, but if he was so bad he wouldn't be in the semifinals of WCS EU. I wish more people would understand that -.- ForGG might reach sniper levels of hatred if he takes out innovation at the global finals ;p. Let this never happen. I think forgg is best of the world in tvt and would kill any korean terran. Other matchups he is mediocre pro (which still is really high level, but ofcourse less then his tvt and therefore he will not win big final). I'd put Ryung, Polt, Flash, Innovation, sC and ty up against ForGG any day of the week. Innovation's TvT is far from convincing in TvT. At times he looks really good, at times he loses to... Turn
Yeah, I think he's weaker than the rest of that list in terms of consistency. But when he wins, it is pretty convincing.
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On May 27 2013 02:50 TheDwf wrote:Your eyes are abusing you. it's not real, madness takes your mind
or... terran
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EPT
