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Fries
United States124 Posts
On May 04 2013 02:46 Type|NarutO wrote: The region with the highest skill ceiling and quality should have the biggest price pool. No. The region that makes the most money should have the biggest prize pool. Ideally the two would be the same but that's not how you run a business, which is what a league is. | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
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Fries
United States124 Posts
On May 04 2013 02:59 Dodgin wrote: If you want a truly AM WCS you're going to have to be accepting of a much smaller prize pool, Shoutcraft america is about where it should be, not 20k first place prizes. WCS AM with only AM players with the same prize pool as GSL would be the biggest joke in our short history. Reread what I said carefully. Blizzard can do whatever they want with their money. The problem is it sounds like they blocked the prizepool from going any higher for some reason. | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
Vibe winning 12k for beating daisuki (who? oh yeah the guy who admitted to maphacking) in last years US WCS was a total farce, Creator won 10.5k for winning WCS Korea. I hope to never see something so stupid again. | ||
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Fries
United States124 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
Maybe It's possible that WCS AM is getting poor viewership compared to EU & KR because of the bad publicity of the qualifiers and AM residents not watching because of Koreans being in the tournament. I think It's simply because the AM audience is much smaller than the EU audience for starcraft 2, and WCS AM airs while EU is asleep. | ||
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SayTT
Sweden2158 Posts
On May 04 2013 02:44 Type|NarutO wrote: Not even going to bother arguing with idiots anymore. DELICIOUS TEARS. 24 invites - 8 Koreans qualified - blame Blizzard. Will never understand that logic! This is the best post in this thread for sure. I will start watching WCS AM when all the bad players have been knocked out. I think RO16 will be fucking great! Also about TB's tournament, great that someone does something for the NA/SA scen, but I don't think a lot of Europeans will not watch low tier "up and coming" NA players. Also the viewers that only want to see good games will be missing as well. But I wish the tournament all the best. | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On May 04 2013 03:33 SayTT wrote: This is the best post in this thread for sure. I will start watching WCS AM when all the bad players have been knocked out. I think RO16 will be fucking great! Also about TB's tournament, great that someone does something for the NA/SA scen, but I don't think a lot of Europeans will watch low tier "up and coming" NA players. Also the viewers that only want to see good games will be missing as well. But I wish the tournament all the best. Depends on how it's presented. It will likely fail if you try to sell it on the quality of games alone, because likely the games won't be up to the level of the top. But if you try to personify the people behind the IDs, the storylines, the struggles, and the triumphs, then you create long-term fans of the players. Good play does create fans, but in my opinion a lot of those fans are more volatile. If the fans don't really know the person behind the ID, when the good play stops, often times so does the fandom. But if you know the person and their story behind the ID, then often times the fans will stick it out for the player even during rough times and slumps. Hopefully ShoutCraft can do that for some of these players. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On May 04 2013 03:13 Fries wrote: My bad assuming that was directed towards me. Although I hesitate to say that AM players don't "deserve" to have that much money. In my opinion the market should drive that. You know who deserves money? PEOPLE WORKING FOR IT. Do you really believe WCS AM as you wish, would gather half as much viewers as WCS with Koreans involved? You have to be kidding me! I will happily cheer for every player from NA and EU in WCS if they can stand their own ground and show good games. I will on the other hand not credit anyone who begs for money pumped into the scene while trying to cut competition. You really believe NA skill ceiling does raise when you don't need to raise it and still can win 100k? I don't think so. A good horse jumps as high as needed, not a bit higher. Both scenes, Europe and NA did breed players that were capable of taking down good Koreans - why can't other rise to that level? Do you really believe its because there'S a lacking scene? Because I don't. I for my part don't watch a single WCS NA game, just because I don't want to support MLG after the major fuckup and I don't support that behaviour. | ||
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Fries
United States124 Posts
You know who deserves money? PEOPLE WORKING FOR IT. Do you really believe WCS AM as you wish, would gather half as much viewers as WCS with Koreans involved? You have to be kidding me! I will happily cheer for every player from NA and EU in WCS if they can stand their own ground and show good games. I will on the other hand not credit anyone who begs for money pumped into the scene while trying to cut competition. You really believe NA skill ceiling does raise when you don't need to raise it and still can win 100k? I don't think so. A good horse jumps as high as needed, not a bit higher. Both scenes, Europe and NA did breed players that were capable of taking down good Koreans - why can't other rise to that level? Do you really believe its because there'S a lacking scene? Because I don't. I for my part don't watch a single WCS NA game, just because I don't want to support MLG after the major fuckup and I don't support that behaviour. You're putting words in my mouth. I never said WCS NA would have better viewership than WCS Korea, all I said was skill won't necessarily always correlate with who gets paid. It's like that in all walks of life and you may not think it's fair but that's how business works. I believe that monetary reward would help foster growth in American e-sports, yes. As it becomes more lucrative, people are more accepting of it as a profession and more people are willing to to give it a shot. Do you think Koreans are just naturally born being good at Starcraft? I don't believe that for a second just as I don't believe Americans are born being better than other countries at basketball, a sport they dominated for a loooooong time. I think (and I admit this is an assumption on my part) that there are probably far more young Koreans who aspire to be a professional SC2 gamer than there are in NA. To me this mentality on how NA players should get better is like taking an amateur tennis player and immediately throwing them up against Rafael Nadal and yelling "HOW COME YOU'RE NOT TRYING HARDER! GET BETTER!" at them as they curl into the fetal position and start crying. Of course there have been a very few players from the scene who have managed to hold their own against Koreans and I have all the respect in the world for them, but I can't imagine how soul-crushingly hopeless it probably seems to a lot of aspiring SC2 players to think that in order to make almost any significant money you have to be able to beat someone like Oz. | ||
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Swords
6038 Posts
On May 04 2013 03:56 Type|NarutO wrote: You know who deserves money? PEOPLE WORKING FOR IT. Do you really believe WCS AM as you wish, would gather half as much viewers as WCS with Koreans involved? You have to be kidding me! I will happily cheer for every player from NA and EU in WCS if they can stand their own ground and show good games. I will on the other hand not credit anyone who begs for money pumped into the scene while trying to cut competition. You really believe NA skill ceiling does raise when you don't need to raise it and still can win 100k? I don't think so. A good horse jumps as high as needed, not a bit higher. Both scenes, Europe and NA did breed players that were capable of taking down good Koreans - why can't other rise to that level? Do you really believe its because there'S a lacking scene? Because I don't. I for my part don't watch a single WCS NA game, just because I don't want to support MLG after the major fuckup and I don't support that behaviour. I believe the scene in Korea is way better for training than the scene in NA. I also think that if they made it so you had to live in the region you could potentially see more Korean players moving to the US to play, which would improve the training environment greatly in NA. I don't think you can really say NA players are bad because there's a lacking scene, but there's definitely a better scene in EU and KR, and NA has to find a way to catch up. In it's current state, WCS AM is a complete clusterfuck though. The NA players who really want to get better go to Korea and have to compete in WCS AM with lag. The players who don't have that drive stay at home and lose to Korean players who are also playing with lag. The way the tournament was seeded is ridiculous and didn't reward talent, but name recognition (unless your name is DeMuslim, then you just got fucked over completely). The Chinese scene was eliminated by poor administration (which feels absurd to even type). It's really unclear what they want from this tournament - it feels in some ways they want the best of the best (huge prizepool, anyone from anywhere can play), but they also want to develop the NA scene (seeding tons of well recognized NA players, forcing anyone outside of the region to play with lag - even when their opponents have to as well). Trying to do both things at once though is impossible, and there's a reason why WCS AM has been the shittiest region to watch by far. Now that MajOr is out I probably won't watch much more, except maybe IdrA's games to see if he says anything funny (I'm a terrible person, I know.). | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12267 Posts
On May 04 2013 04:15 Fries wrote: To me this mentality on how NA players should get better is like taking an amateur tennis player and immediately throwing them up against Rafael Nadal and yelling "HOW COME YOU'RE NOT TRYING HARDER! GET BETTER!" at them as they curl into the fetal position and start crying. That's not what's happening though. Nadal and Federer would be, what, Life, Flash, Innovation, sOs, Parting? Apocalypse, moonglade and Thestc are good, but they are nowhere near the equivalent level. Being able to beat Apocalypse is more being able to beat Seppi or Gilles Simon (not even that, they would still be too high, I don't know tennis enough to find the right names). Still not easy, but a good challenge. My point is, I doubt your aspiring young american feels it's harder to beat Apocalypse than to beat Minigun, just because one is korean and the other isn't. | ||
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SayTT
Sweden2158 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
I am ALL FOR(!) investing into NA and EU, as I mentioned before, host teamleagues, player-leagues that are not MAJOR but minor, maximum ~25k as price money and that take part over a certain amount of time and can be either very good in price-distrubition or even locally restricted. But hosting a MAJOR tournamnet such as WCS and blame Koreans for taking the spots if they have the chance is.. absurd. I mean, can anyone blame them? If EU was easier than NA, you can bet your ass everyone from NA would have switched and not a single person would have cried. | ||
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heartagram
178 Posts
On May 04 2013 04:15 Fries wrote: You're putting words in my mouth. I never said WCS NA would have better viewership than WCS Korea, all I said was skill won't necessarily always correlate with who gets paid. It's like that in all walks of life and you may not think it's fair but that's how business works. I believe that monetary reward would help foster growth in American e-sports, yes. As it becomes more lucrative, people are more accepting of it as a profession and more people are willing to to give it a shot. Do you think Koreans are just naturally born being good at Starcraft? I don't believe that for a second just as I don't believe Americans are born being better than other countries at basketball, a sport they dominated for a loooooong time. I think (and I admit this is an assumption on my part) that there are probably far more young Koreans who aspire to be a professional SC2 gamer than there are in NA. To me this mentality on how NA players should get better is like taking an amateur tennis player and immediately throwing them up against Rafael Nadal and yelling "HOW COME YOU'RE NOT TRYING HARDER! GET BETTER!" at them as they curl into the fetal position and start crying. Of course there have been a very few players from the scene who have managed to hold their own against Koreans and I have all the respect in the world for them, but I can't imagine how soul-crushingly hopeless it probably seems to a lot of aspiring SC2 players to think that in order to make almost any significant money you have to be able to beat someone like Oz. Absurdly false. Fast twitch muscle fibers. | ||
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Cyrak
Canada536 Posts
I don't even know where to start with this one. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18055 Posts
On May 04 2013 04:31 Nebuchad wrote: That's not what's happening though. Nadal and Federer would be, what, Life, Flash, Innovation, sOs, Parting? Apocalypse, moonglade and Thestc are good, but they are nowhere near the equivalent level. Being able to beat Apocalypse is more being able to beat Seppi or Gilles Simon (not even that, they would still be too high, I don't know tennis enough to find the right names). Still not easy, but a good challenge. My point is, I doubt your aspiring young american feels it's harder to beat Apocalypse than to beat Minigun, just become one is korean and the other isn't. The main problem I have with people who claim that on the one hand it is unfair to pit Minigun and Vibe against top koreans (or even not-so-top) and expect them to succeed (a fair statement), but on the other hand expect them to be competing for a gigantic prize pool. No. If you're a little league player you get little league prizes. Blizzard clearly doesn't want players in the WCS AM to be sheltered and has an open market model to winning the prize money. There is clearly demand from other regions to come and "steal" the AM prize, just as Nadal, Federer and Djokovic come over and win the US Open every year. | ||
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Charlie.Sheen
662 Posts
On May 04 2013 02:58 Fries wrote: No. The region that makes the most money should have the biggest prize pool. Ideally the two would be the same but that's not how you run a business, which is what a league is. Makes sense, but plz run it better, or at least equally good as GSL, since MLG and ESL will profit a lot from this. At least make it offline for all matches in premier league. Can you imagine MLG's profit margin on this WCS deal compared to Gomtv? MLG invests so little into this compared to Gom, but they can easily have more viewers. | ||
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