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On May 03 2013 13:53 Gojira621 wrote:
I understand that America has to be the laughing stock of the sc2 scene, and probably always will be, but I'm caring less and less about this season of it. Before I get labeled racist, I'm an avid GSL viewer, I watch like every VOD, i love watching proleague, etc. I don't even mind so much when koreans come over and dominate every MLG, or NASL, or IPL (rip). But I was hoping this would be like last year where we would finally have a tournament that a reasonable amount of north american players could claim victory on. I know I'm not the only person who enjoyed watching some of the WCS America and def. the north american finals last year. But at this point, what exactly is the point of watching? I already watch tons of amazing koreans play in proleague and GSL. I know with a 95% certainty that WCS America season 1 will consist of mostly koreans from the ro16 to the finals. I guess I should look at it more like a GSL that is "in" the USA, but I just don't feel like caring anymore if no one from north america can even get into the second group stage.
I'm really happy for the europeans holding their own but to be fair, there were a LOT less koreans trying to get into WCS Europe, and only 4 who managed to get into the premier league (shuttle JUST BARELY qualified, but he lost anyway). Not to mention the top of the european scene is stacked considerably higher than NA. But compare this to the nearly 20 or so Koreans who declared they would be participating in WCS America. I guess I'm just beating a dead horse at this point, but it's just frustrating to watch.
So much truth in this post. Killer and Major are both so good. It's a shame that they can't advance in an NA tournament. I don't care to see more Koreans playing.
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So far 6 Koreans, 1 Australian and 1 Norwegian have gotten through to the round of 16 for the NORTH AMERICAN WCS.
xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
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I said this before. I will stop watching WCS when there are no longer any players from SA/NA in the tourney. I don't care to watch another emotionless korean tourney with players that I don't follow or really care about.
I see that when I watch the GSL and many other tourneys (not flaming, I love watching the skill that these players show) but Blizz talks about growing the NA scene, but in reality we are turning into BW where the NA scene was crippled by that mentality of MORE KOREANS means BETTER ESPORTS
It hurts esports as a whole, and watch the viewship numbers drop after the last NA player falls out of the tourney.
Looking forward to Shoutcraft America, what WCS NA should have been.
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On May 03 2013 22:52 Enchanted wrote:
So far 6 Koreans, 1 Australian and 1 Norwegian have gotten through to the round of 16 for the NORTH AMERICAN WCS.
xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
WCS AMERICAS, not NORTH AMERICAN anything.
Still sad, but Major and Killer were two representatives who could have actually made it in WCS AMERICAS
Also, if it wasn't WCS AMERICAS, then it would be MLG. Where Koreans would come. And dominate. So it's a case of Koreans winning WCS AMERICAS or Koreans winning MLG.
Same crap, different name.
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Austria24417 Posts
On May 03 2013 23:00 Ravensong170 wrote:
I said this before. I will stop watching WCS when there are no longer any players from SA/NA in the tourney. I don't care to watch another emotionless korean tourney with players that I don't follow or really care about.
I see that when I watch the GSL and many other tourneys (not flaming, I love watching the skill that these players show) but Blizz talks about growing the NA scene, but in reality we are turning into BW where the NA scene was crippled by that mentality of MORE KOREANS means BETTER ESPORTS
It hurts esports as a whole, and watch the viewship numbers drop after the last NA player falls out of the tourney.
Looking forward to Shoutcraft America, what WCS NA should have been.
Blizzard wants WCS to be the biggest tournament in the world. Like a best of the best. Not a single NA player deserves to be in something like that (except for maaaaaaybeeeeeeee Scarlett).
I agree that the previous system was better but I also won't complain about this one and I won't miss anybody who does. Complain to blizzard, not in LRs.
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Killer did surpirse me vs alive in that first series. But I knew alive would get out. I have been actualy enjoying the EU WCS games more than NA, but I watch mainly the NA. WCS NA is basically the league the koreans who can't make it in the real Code S come here. I think the 2nd group stage will be at least enterataining because you will have better players get through. The problem I have with TB shoutcraft America event, is that the player list is a bunch of random players, and then root gaming players. I do want to see the root gaming players, but I don't really care to watch xenocider(no offense).
Next week I think we will see more foreigners get out. Scarlett's group could be hard cause violet and Oz could get out pretty easily. I really think Scarlett will be the one to determine that if she wins. IT does help that she doesn't play a korean first, she plays state, so if she beats state she only has to beat oz/violet to advance. Group C I see reviaval and polt getting out. Idra could get out but I don't have faith in him since he leaves games vs demuslim, and blames blizzard if he loses, so Polt, who only needs to prepare vs Zerg will win. Still don't get why hellokitty is in "NA code S" but I guess we shall see how he does vs 2 koreans in RYung and heart, I expect the korean terrans get out. HuK and Sen should actually get out of there group, Huk was strong at dreamhack and Sen is very good. I think HuK can beat crank in a PvP. And HuK is in korean under coach park so that should be good.
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On May 03 2013 23:06 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:00 Ravensong170 wrote:
I said this before. I will stop watching WCS when there are no longer any players from SA/NA in the tourney. I don't care to watch another emotionless korean tourney with players that I don't follow or really care about.
I see that when I watch the GSL and many other tourneys (not flaming, I love watching the skill that these players show) but Blizz talks about growing the NA scene, but in reality we are turning into BW where the NA scene was crippled by that mentality of MORE KOREANS means BETTER ESPORTS
It hurts esports as a whole, and watch the viewship numbers drop after the last NA player falls out of the tourney.
Looking forward to Shoutcraft America, what WCS NA should have been. Blizzard wants WCS to be the biggest tournament in the world. Like a best of the best. Not a single NA player deserves to be in something like that (except for maaaaaaybeeeeeeee Scarlett).
This is how I feel too. At WCS 2012, watching the guys from [non-Korea] compete, I couldn't help but feel a world champion should be decided from a tourney where the best were united, and that it wasn't the case with that sort of qualifying system.
Ofc I understand the other side of the coin, and I do think that this group was ridiculous for Killer and Major, but I'm certainly going to keep watching no matter what, and I expect much better WCS Finals for 2013 because of how they decided to do it.
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Here's the problem, as has been stated multiple times: If they say their goal is to help the growth in American e-sports, then how much is this really helping when like 95% of the prizepool of WCS NA goes towards Koreans? It's hard to imagine a bustling scene trying to claw their way to the top of NA for a shot at the $1,000 dollars or whatever it is of getting knocked out in the first round of Premiere league if you even get that far.
Yes, they want the WCS to be the biggest tournament in the world and crown the best of the best, but aren't the players coming out of WCS Korea going to be the best of the best anyway? By that logic isn't this already a failure because the Premiere league players in Korea who won't make it to the finals for that region are better than even the top 8 Koreans that will come out of NA?
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Austria24417 Posts
On May 04 2013 02:03 Fries wrote:
Here's the problem, as has been stated multiple times: If they say their goal is to help the growth in American e-sports, then how much is this really helping when like 95% of the prizepool of WCS NA goes towards Koreans? It's hard to imagine a bustling scene trying to claw their way to the top of NA for a shot at the $1,000 dollars or whatever it is of getting knocked out in the first round of Premiere league if you even get that far.
Yes, they want the WCS to be the biggest tournament in the world and crown the best of the best, but aren't the players coming out of WCS Korea going to be the best of the best anyway? By that logic isn't this already a failure because the Premiere league players in Korea who won't make it to the finals for that region are better than even the top 8 Koreans that will come out of NA?
Kinda, yes. I guess in the long run they want a strong scene in all of the regions which includes a more spread out lineup of koreans. Currently Korea is so stacked that the current Code A is almost stronger than Code S was a year ago. The amount of raw skill there at the moment is too high. So I suppose what they're trying to do is export some of that so they'll have an absolutely sick finals. Like... there's groups of death like WCS Ro16 group B. Those will happen more often now. There's just too many SICK good players.
That, I guess, is the plan. I don't think it's gonna help the respective scenes that much in the sense that the money will go to koreans. However the koreans might bring a lot of knowledge, ways to practice, just practice partners in general, etc.
I mean all of this is speculation but I think that's what they wanna do. They wanna make SC2 global by going after skill, not names. Which means spread out the koreans, lol.
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And my problem is I just don't see how we can realistically expect NA to get better when they're fighting over what is realistically not going to be a lot of money. I have nothing against the Koreans, but I just can't see helping grow the NA scene much.
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Austria24417 Posts
On May 04 2013 02:13 Fries wrote:
And my problem is I just don't see how we can realistically expect NA to get better when they're fighting over what is realistically not going to be a lot of money. I have nothing against the Koreans, but I just can't see helping grow the NA scene much.
That's true. I didn't say I agreed with what I think they're trying to do, I don't in fact. I think the system from last year was better. To be honest they could just have one regional WCS like last year and then give WCS points for every tournament. The more stacked it is, the more points you get. Which means you'll have the best players from each region qualify through their regional WCS and then you'd have the rest fight for points at tournaments like MLG, Dreamhack, GSL, ETC
THEN you get a final where the best players from each region (which should excite their respective players) compete with the most successful people in tournaments. The only thing that would have to change is Kespa being a bitch and not letting their players leave Korea or holding more tournaments in Korea to give those players a better chance.
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On May 03 2013 13:53 Gojira621 wrote:
I know with a 95% certainty that WCS America season 1 will consist of mostly koreans from the ro16 to the finals.
Sounds good to me. I'll start watching at that point.
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On May 04 2013 02:13 Fries wrote:
And my problem is I just don't see how we can realistically expect NA to get better when they're fighting over what is realistically not going to be a lot of money. I have nothing against the Koreans, but I just can't see helping grow the NA scene much.
So Blizzard should give pity money to baddies? Why?
I mean, no offense, but if you can't beat TheSTC, Apocalypse, Snute or Moonglade (seriously, no offense to these players) then what the fuck rights do you have to be clamouring about prize money?
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Austria24417 Posts
On May 04 2013 02:20 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 02:13 Fries wrote:
And my problem is I just don't see how we can realistically expect NA to get better when they're fighting over what is realistically not going to be a lot of money. I have nothing against the Koreans, but I just can't see helping grow the NA scene much. So Blizzard should give pity money to baddies? Why? I mean, no offense, but if you can't beat TheSTC, Apocalypse, Snute or Moonglade (seriously, no offense to these players) then what the fuck rights do you have to be clamouring about prize money?
Well, the thing he's talking about is if NA teams and players make no money because the koreans come over and win everything, then they won't have the possibility to set up a professional practice environment like there is in korea ====>> they'll never even have the chance to get as good as the koreans.
It's blatantly obvious that just grinding the ladder all day doesn't do the job. Otherwise Minigun would win tournaments. And I think he'd have the potential to, with the proper infrastructure, a coach taking care of the team, strong practice partners, super deep knowledge floating around the practice environment. People helping him prepare for specific games as well as broader tournaments, etc.
All those things differentiate korean pros from NA pros.
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Regarding growing American e-sports: Set aside prize money for a minute. You need to remember that there is _already_ more money in AM e-sports than there is in KR e-sports. The majority of the viewers and of the sponsors are outside of Korea. That's the whole reason why Korean players are ending up on Western teams - the Western teams are the ones with cash.
So if money isn't the obstacle, what is? It's skill. It's training, it's playing against the best. Which is why we encourage players to go to Korea and level up. But that's expensive and difficult and gets a whole lot of other roadblocks (including getting used to a whole new culture) in the way of Starcraft.
So here's the plan: let's try and get some of the best to come over to AM. Kickstart the local scene with world-class skill and training regimens. Give them incentive to stay in AM by having regular off-line matches and making it hard to switch between regions. (Region switching after season 1, and online RO32 are only temporary, to get things started...)
The goal is to _make_ these players into AM players, regardless of where they are from initially, and then, once you have the local scene built and world-class, then new players coming up will have the right environment to get the skills without having to move halfway around the world in order to do it.
Yes, the first couple seasons will kind of suck. They would've been less than ideal anyway because of all the invites to start things off and people still learning HotS. But in the long-term, this is one of the only ways to actually make the AM scene worthwhile.
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On May 03 2013 23:24 HeeroFX wrote: The problem I have with TB shoutcraft America event, is that the player list is a bunch of random players, and then root gaming players. I do want to see the root gaming players, but I don't really care to watch xenocider(no offense).
This is the problem with the SC2 community.
"Why are foreigners so bad? Where are the good foreign players!"
* Provides a list of top foreign players according to GM ladder, competing in their native countries, puts them in a tournament
"I don't know any of these players, I'm not going to watch!"
How the fuck is the foreigner scene supposed to develop if you're not willing to support it? Do these guys need to beat Koreans for you to notice them? How are they going to do that if they don't even have the opportunity to play against them?
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Not even going to bother arguing with idiots anymore. DELICIOUS TEARS. 24 invites - 8 Koreans qualified - blame Blizzard. Will never understand that logic!
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But as far as I know they're not actually coming to the region. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the majority playing online then flying over to NA to play the offline matches and then flying back to their usual practice environments with some easy money in their pockets. I do agree with you Tobon that it could get better if it did keep these players within the scene and hopefully if nothing else that happens.
Like DarkLord said, I'm speaking exclusively about raising the level of play outside of Korea. If one of the goals of Blizzard is to help grow E-sports in other regions, I don't see how this does it.
I applaud Blizzard for trying to pump money into the different regions, but in my mind I think it would work best like this:
Blizzard throws in their contribution to the prize-pool evenly distributed like it currently is. That way each region has a sort of "minimum wage" if you will. But don't cut off players in other regions from possibly making even more money. Set that up as a base and allow the prize-pools to grow from there. The region with the most viewers, sponsorships, etc will end up with a bigger prize-pool and that's exactly as it should be. A sort of minor league system develops where players that aren't good enough quite yet for the Korean league come here to play and hopefully make a decent living. When they're a little better they go to EU because there might be more money there and slightly higher competition and Korea is the big leagues.
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On May 04 2013 02:41 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:24 HeeroFX wrote: The problem I have with TB shoutcraft America event, is that the player list is a bunch of random players, and then root gaming players. I do want to see the root gaming players, but I don't really care to watch xenocider(no offense).
This is the problem with the SC2 community. "Why are foreigners so bad? Where are the good foreign players!" * Provides a list of top foreign players according to GM ladder, competing in their native countries, puts them in a tournament "I don't know any of these players, I'm not going to watch!" How the fuck is the foreigner scene supposed to develop if you're not willing to support it? Do these guys need to beat Koreans for you to notice them? How are they going to do that if they don't even have the opportunity to play against them?
No no because if they do it will be the "bad Koreans that had to play in NA"
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On May 04 2013 02:44 Fries wrote:
But as far as I know they're not actually coming to the region. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the majority playing online then flying over to NA to play the offline matches and then flying back to their usual practice environments with some easy money in their pockets. I do agree with you Tobon that it could get better if it did keep these players within the scene and hopefully if nothing else that happens.
Like DarkLord said, I'm speaking exclusively about raising the level of play outside of Korea. If one of the goals of Blizzard is to help grow E-sports in other regions, I don't see how this does it.
I applaud Blizzard for trying to pump money into the different regions, but in my mind I think it would work best like this:
Blizzard throws in their contribution to the prize-pool evenly distributed like it currently is. That way each region has a sort of "minimum wage" if you will. But don't cut off players in other regions from possibly making even more money. Set that up as a base and allow the prize-pools to grow from there. The region with the most viewers, sponsorships, etc will end up with a bigger prize-pool and that's exactly as it should be. A sort of minor league system develops where players that aren't good enough quite yet for the Korean league come here to play and hopefully make a decent living. When they're a little better they go to EU because there might be more money there and slightly higher competition and Korea is the big leagues.
The region with the highest skill ceiling and quality should have the biggest price pool.
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EPT
