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On February 02 2013 00:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 00:05 SamsungStar wrote:On February 02 2013 00:01 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:58 Arceus wrote:
lol at all those defenders. If you failed a bo1 with PRESET map AND opponent, you are bad. I mean cmon just one known map, one known opponent, days to prepare. Theres really no excuse if you cant do that, repeatedly no less WTF, silliest argument I've ever heard. Yeah, almost as bad as the guy arguing EGTL's losses in winner's league were due to their aces not getting more than once chance to win for their team. You are just way too rabid of a fanboy. EGTL's aces are strong, but so are the aces of other teams in PL like Grumbels said. You're way overestimating their skill and that's why you find yourself needing to defend your team's abysmal performance when to everyone else it's plain as day that your players are simply not as good as you claim. So who 3 killed Samsung Khan again? Oh right, HerO. Why did EGTL lose again? Oh right, because the rest of the lineup didn't perform. The team overall might be worse than the rest in PL, whatever. I'm not saying anything else. I don't even care about their performance, lol. All I'm saying is that the hate against their players is fucking retarded as hell because teamleagues don't show individual skill as much as individual leagues because you, as an individual player, only get a smaller amount of games which makes it easier for you to lose. That's how it is.
Hey, you are becoming lost in your own arguments 8D
In this last post you said hero won 3 games and thats because hes an ace, so he´s good.
But at the same time you say that individual skill don´t mean wins.
Try to take a break, breath for a while and think about it.
But in the end, this discussion doesn´t matter anyway.
What´s important is wins, losses and who is the champion in the last game
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 02 2013 00:16 Taipoka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 00:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:05 SamsungStar wrote:On February 02 2013 00:01 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:58 Arceus wrote:
lol at all those defenders. If you failed a bo1 with PRESET map AND opponent, you are bad. I mean cmon just one known map, one known opponent, days to prepare. Theres really no excuse if you cant do that, repeatedly no less WTF, silliest argument I've ever heard. Yeah, almost as bad as the guy arguing EGTL's losses in winner's league were due to their aces not getting more than once chance to win for their team. You are just way too rabid of a fanboy. EGTL's aces are strong, but so are the aces of other teams in PL like Grumbels said. You're way overestimating their skill and that's why you find yourself needing to defend your team's abysmal performance when to everyone else it's plain as day that your players are simply not as good as you claim. So who 3 killed Samsung Khan again? Oh right, HerO. Why did EGTL lose again? Oh right, because the rest of the lineup didn't perform. The team overall might be worse than the rest in PL, whatever. I'm not saying anything else. I don't even care about their performance, lol. All I'm saying is that the hate against their players is fucking retarded as hell because teamleagues don't show individual skill as much as individual leagues because you, as an individual player, only get a smaller amount of games which makes it easier for you to lose. That's how it is. Hey, you are becoming lost in your own arguments 8D In this last post you said hero won 3 games and thats because hes an ace, so he´s good. But at the same time you say that individual skill don´t mean wins. Try to take a break, breath for a while and think about it. But in the end, this discussion doesn´t matter anyway. What´s important is wins, losses and who is the champion in the last game
I'm saying that individual skill doesn't mean wins for a team. It meant 3 kills for HerO which is great but it didn't help the team too much.
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On February 02 2013 00:15 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 00:15 SamsungStar wrote:On February 02 2013 00:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:06 Taipoka wrote:On February 02 2013 00:01 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:58 Arceus wrote:
lol at all those defenders. If you failed a bo1 with PRESET map AND opponent, you are bad. I mean cmon just one known map, one known opponent, days to prepare. Theres really no excuse if you cant do that, repeatedly no less WTF, silliest argument I've ever heard. On February 01 2013 23:56 SamsungStar wrote:On February 01 2013 23:56 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:53 SamsungStar wrote:On February 01 2013 23:47 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:43 SamsungStar wrote:
[quote]
I suggest you take a dice. And roll it for five weeks. And when it never comes up EGTL, come back and tell me how great they are LOL. A whole team of better players don't lose for an entire season of WINNER's League, which is simply a smart and right observation. MVP and Nestea don't make a team. DEPTH does. WTF! I didn't... say... EGTL was a good team... Stop arguing against something I'm not even saying. IM had the best individual players in the world but was bad in teamleagues. EGTL has great individual players but is bad in this teamleague. Why are you even arguing about depth, I never said anything about depth. That was never even the point. Nothing you ever argued about was even the point No, you don't get it. There's no difference between "individual" and "team" players in SC2. I have no clue wtf you're on. It's a 1v1 game. Good players win their 1v1s consistently. Mediocre players don't. You can't argue a team has amazing players when that team's players keep losing. So, when you claim EGTL has amazing "individual" players, in essence you're claiming the team is amazing. When it's very much not. My point is you have none. You've tried to create some kind of artificial division between PL and individual leagues, except that's never how its worked. In BW, the players winning the most in PL were nearly always the same ones winning the individual leagues. You know why? Because that's what winners do. There were a few exceptions, like Sea, but that's why Sea is a well-recognized name, because of his unusually lopsided performance. The others were called snipers because they were only good at one particular matchup or map. It's why snipers are not given the same level of respect as the bonjwas and league winners. Until PL has 2v2 and 3v3 matches, you have no case. If EGTL had individually great players they would be winning. They're not and they don't. At least not right now. Do their players have the potential to be great? Yes. But you can't claim they're amazing when they continue to lose. That's the thing though, that's wrong. It's simply wrong. There IS a difference between individual leagues and teamleagues. That's why I brought up the example of IM which had, without the shadow of a doubt, the greatest individual players of SC2 but always lost in teamleagues. Why? Unless you can answer that question, you're the one who has no case. You don't read very well. ? Why don't you answer about IM. Why didn't IM win every teamleague? 1 - Why? Care to counter argument? 2 - you don´t see IM losing to everyone im team leagues. IM got all killed by QXC back when Mvp and Nestea were the best players in the world. How is that possible if amazing individual players automatically mean that a team will do well, according to that other guy? Keep trying to find outliers to justify trends. I'm sure you'll find a lot of success with that strategy. Straw man. Answer the question
Your question is a straw man. Now answer my answer.
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On February 02 2013 00:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 00:14 Dodgin wrote:On February 02 2013 00:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:06 Taipoka wrote:On February 02 2013 00:01 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:58 Arceus wrote:
lol at all those defenders. If you failed a bo1 with PRESET map AND opponent, you are bad. I mean cmon just one known map, one known opponent, days to prepare. Theres really no excuse if you cant do that, repeatedly no less WTF, silliest argument I've ever heard. On February 01 2013 23:56 SamsungStar wrote:On February 01 2013 23:56 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:53 SamsungStar wrote:On February 01 2013 23:47 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:43 SamsungStar wrote:
[quote]
I suggest you take a dice. And roll it for five weeks. And when it never comes up EGTL, come back and tell me how great they are LOL. A whole team of better players don't lose for an entire season of WINNER's League, which is simply a smart and right observation. MVP and Nestea don't make a team. DEPTH does. WTF! I didn't... say... EGTL was a good team... Stop arguing against something I'm not even saying. IM had the best individual players in the world but was bad in teamleagues. EGTL has great individual players but is bad in this teamleague. Why are you even arguing about depth, I never said anything about depth. That was never even the point. Nothing you ever argued about was even the point No, you don't get it. There's no difference between "individual" and "team" players in SC2. I have no clue wtf you're on. It's a 1v1 game. Good players win their 1v1s consistently. Mediocre players don't. You can't argue a team has amazing players when that team's players keep losing. So, when you claim EGTL has amazing "individual" players, in essence you're claiming the team is amazing. When it's very much not. My point is you have none. You've tried to create some kind of artificial division between PL and individual leagues, except that's never how its worked. In BW, the players winning the most in PL were nearly always the same ones winning the individual leagues. You know why? Because that's what winners do. There were a few exceptions, like Sea, but that's why Sea is a well-recognized name, because of his unusually lopsided performance. The others were called snipers because they were only good at one particular matchup or map. It's why snipers are not given the same level of respect as the bonjwas and league winners. Until PL has 2v2 and 3v3 matches, you have no case. If EGTL had individually great players they would be winning. They're not and they don't. At least not right now. Do their players have the potential to be great? Yes. But you can't claim they're amazing when they continue to lose. That's the thing though, that's wrong. It's simply wrong. There IS a difference between individual leagues and teamleagues. That's why I brought up the example of IM which had, without the shadow of a doubt, the greatest individual players of SC2 but always lost in teamleagues. Why? Unless you can answer that question, you're the one who has no case. You don't read very well. ? Why don't you answer about IM. Why didn't IM win every teamleague? 1 - Why? Care to counter argument? 2 - you don´t see IM losing to everyone im team leagues. IM got all killed by QXC back when Mvp and Nestea were the best players in the world. How is that possible if amazing individual players automatically mean that a team will do well, according to that other guy? iirc the QXC all kill was 3 B teamers and then Mvp as the last guy. I really think you should just give up this argument by the way ;o Mvp was the best player in the world, how could he possibly lose a Bo1?!?! Impossible!!! Yeah I'll give up soon. People just love to hate on player who lose Bo1s.
When you have a losing record on 20 Bo1s, ofc you are not a better player compared to average.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 02 2013 00:17 SamsungStar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 00:15 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:15 SamsungStar wrote:On February 02 2013 00:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:06 Taipoka wrote:On February 02 2013 00:01 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:58 Arceus wrote:
lol at all those defenders. If you failed a bo1 with PRESET map AND opponent, you are bad. I mean cmon just one known map, one known opponent, days to prepare. Theres really no excuse if you cant do that, repeatedly no less WTF, silliest argument I've ever heard. On February 01 2013 23:56 SamsungStar wrote:On February 01 2013 23:56 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:53 SamsungStar wrote:On February 01 2013 23:47 DarkLordOlli wrote:
[quote]
I didn't... say... EGTL was a good team...
Stop arguing against something I'm not even saying. IM had the best individual players in the world but was bad in teamleagues. EGTL has great individual players but is bad in this teamleague. Why are you even arguing about depth, I never said anything about depth. That was never even the point. Nothing you ever argued about was even the point No, you don't get it. There's no difference between "individual" and "team" players in SC2. I have no clue wtf you're on. It's a 1v1 game. Good players win their 1v1s consistently. Mediocre players don't. You can't argue a team has amazing players when that team's players keep losing. So, when you claim EGTL has amazing "individual" players, in essence you're claiming the team is amazing. When it's very much not. My point is you have none. You've tried to create some kind of artificial division between PL and individual leagues, except that's never how its worked. In BW, the players winning the most in PL were nearly always the same ones winning the individual leagues. You know why? Because that's what winners do. There were a few exceptions, like Sea, but that's why Sea is a well-recognized name, because of his unusually lopsided performance. The others were called snipers because they were only good at one particular matchup or map. It's why snipers are not given the same level of respect as the bonjwas and league winners. Until PL has 2v2 and 3v3 matches, you have no case. If EGTL had individually great players they would be winning. They're not and they don't. At least not right now. Do their players have the potential to be great? Yes. But you can't claim they're amazing when they continue to lose. That's the thing though, that's wrong. It's simply wrong. There IS a difference between individual leagues and teamleagues. That's why I brought up the example of IM which had, without the shadow of a doubt, the greatest individual players of SC2 but always lost in teamleagues. Why? Unless you can answer that question, you're the one who has no case. You don't read very well. ? Why don't you answer about IM. Why didn't IM win every teamleague? 1 - Why? Care to counter argument? 2 - you don´t see IM losing to everyone im team leagues. IM got all killed by QXC back when Mvp and Nestea were the best players in the world. How is that possible if amazing individual players automatically mean that a team will do well, according to that other guy? Keep trying to find outliers to justify trends. I'm sure you'll find a lot of success with that strategy. Straw man. Answer the question Your question is a straw man. Now answer my answer.
My question is an example directly related to your argument. Am I gonna have to explain to you how it's not a straw man? Shouldn't be too hard to answer for you since you got it all figured out.
Mvp is the greatest WoL player of all time. But he always performed poorly in teamleagues. So if you looked at only his teamleague results, Mvp would have a negative winrate. That, according to your argument, would mean that he's bad. Meanwhile, he was the best individual player in the world. That means your thesis that teamleagues show skill as much as individual leagues or whatever you wanna call it is wrong.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 02 2013 00:18 FineAndDandy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 00:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:14 Dodgin wrote:On February 02 2013 00:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:06 Taipoka wrote:On February 02 2013 00:01 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:58 Arceus wrote:
lol at all those defenders. If you failed a bo1 with PRESET map AND opponent, you are bad. I mean cmon just one known map, one known opponent, days to prepare. Theres really no excuse if you cant do that, repeatedly no less WTF, silliest argument I've ever heard. On February 01 2013 23:56 SamsungStar wrote:On February 01 2013 23:56 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:53 SamsungStar wrote:On February 01 2013 23:47 DarkLordOlli wrote:
[quote]
I didn't... say... EGTL was a good team...
Stop arguing against something I'm not even saying. IM had the best individual players in the world but was bad in teamleagues. EGTL has great individual players but is bad in this teamleague. Why are you even arguing about depth, I never said anything about depth. That was never even the point. Nothing you ever argued about was even the point No, you don't get it. There's no difference between "individual" and "team" players in SC2. I have no clue wtf you're on. It's a 1v1 game. Good players win their 1v1s consistently. Mediocre players don't. You can't argue a team has amazing players when that team's players keep losing. So, when you claim EGTL has amazing "individual" players, in essence you're claiming the team is amazing. When it's very much not. My point is you have none. You've tried to create some kind of artificial division between PL and individual leagues, except that's never how its worked. In BW, the players winning the most in PL were nearly always the same ones winning the individual leagues. You know why? Because that's what winners do. There were a few exceptions, like Sea, but that's why Sea is a well-recognized name, because of his unusually lopsided performance. The others were called snipers because they were only good at one particular matchup or map. It's why snipers are not given the same level of respect as the bonjwas and league winners. Until PL has 2v2 and 3v3 matches, you have no case. If EGTL had individually great players they would be winning. They're not and they don't. At least not right now. Do their players have the potential to be great? Yes. But you can't claim they're amazing when they continue to lose. That's the thing though, that's wrong. It's simply wrong. There IS a difference between individual leagues and teamleagues. That's why I brought up the example of IM which had, without the shadow of a doubt, the greatest individual players of SC2 but always lost in teamleagues. Why? Unless you can answer that question, you're the one who has no case. You don't read very well. ? Why don't you answer about IM. Why didn't IM win every teamleague? 1 - Why? Care to counter argument? 2 - you don´t see IM losing to everyone im team leagues. IM got all killed by QXC back when Mvp and Nestea were the best players in the world. How is that possible if amazing individual players automatically mean that a team will do well, according to that other guy? iirc the QXC all kill was 3 B teamers and then Mvp as the last guy. I really think you should just give up this argument by the way ;o Mvp was the best player in the world, how could he possibly lose a Bo1?!?! Impossible!!! Yeah I'll give up soon. People just love to hate on player who lose Bo1s. When you have a losing record on 20 Bo1s, ofc you are not a better player compared to average.
So you're saying a losing record in 20 Bo1s matters as much as about a positive winrate in individual leagues with Bo3s, Bo5s and Bo7s?
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On February 02 2013 00:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 00:18 FineAndDandy wrote:On February 02 2013 00:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:14 Dodgin wrote:On February 02 2013 00:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:06 Taipoka wrote:On February 02 2013 00:01 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:58 Arceus wrote:
lol at all those defenders. If you failed a bo1 with PRESET map AND opponent, you are bad. I mean cmon just one known map, one known opponent, days to prepare. Theres really no excuse if you cant do that, repeatedly no less WTF, silliest argument I've ever heard. On February 01 2013 23:56 SamsungStar wrote:On February 01 2013 23:56 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:53 SamsungStar wrote:
[quote]
No, you don't get it. There's no difference between "individual" and "team" players in SC2. I have no clue wtf you're on. It's a 1v1 game. Good players win their 1v1s consistently. Mediocre players don't. You can't argue a team has amazing players when that team's players keep losing. So, when you claim EGTL has amazing "individual" players, in essence you're claiming the team is amazing. When it's very much not.
My point is you have none. You've tried to create some kind of artificial division between PL and individual leagues, except that's never how its worked. In BW, the players winning the most in PL were nearly always the same ones winning the individual leagues. You know why? Because that's what winners do. There were a few exceptions, like Sea, but that's why Sea is a well-recognized name, because of his unusually lopsided performance. The others were called snipers because they were only good at one particular matchup or map. It's why snipers are not given the same level of respect as the bonjwas and league winners.
Until PL has 2v2 and 3v3 matches, you have no case. If EGTL had individually great players they would be winning. They're not and they don't. At least not right now. Do their players have the potential to be great? Yes. But you can't claim they're amazing when they continue to lose. That's the thing though, that's wrong. It's simply wrong. There IS a difference between individual leagues and teamleagues. That's why I brought up the example of IM which had, without the shadow of a doubt, the greatest individual players of SC2 but always lost in teamleagues. Why? Unless you can answer that question, you're the one who has no case. You don't read very well. ? Why don't you answer about IM. Why didn't IM win every teamleague? 1 - Why? Care to counter argument? 2 - you don´t see IM losing to everyone im team leagues. IM got all killed by QXC back when Mvp and Nestea were the best players in the world. How is that possible if amazing individual players automatically mean that a team will do well, according to that other guy? iirc the QXC all kill was 3 B teamers and then Mvp as the last guy. I really think you should just give up this argument by the way ;o Mvp was the best player in the world, how could he possibly lose a Bo1?!?! Impossible!!! Yeah I'll give up soon. People just love to hate on player who lose Bo1s. When you have a losing record on 20 Bo1s, ofc you are not a better player compared to average. So you're saying a losing record in 20 Bo1s matters as much as about a positive winrate in individual leagues with Bo3s, Bo5s and Bo7s?
What? don't get your point. Why shouldn't it matter the same? Bo3 are just 3 Bo1s. I would even say Bo1s maybe matter more because every game is live or die situation.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 02 2013 00:25 FineAndDandy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 00:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:18 FineAndDandy wrote:On February 02 2013 00:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:14 Dodgin wrote:On February 02 2013 00:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:06 Taipoka wrote:On February 02 2013 00:01 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:58 Arceus wrote:
lol at all those defenders. If you failed a bo1 with PRESET map AND opponent, you are bad. I mean cmon just one known map, one known opponent, days to prepare. Theres really no excuse if you cant do that, repeatedly no less WTF, silliest argument I've ever heard. On February 01 2013 23:56 SamsungStar wrote:On February 01 2013 23:56 DarkLordOlli wrote:
[quote]
That's the thing though, that's wrong. It's simply wrong. There IS a difference between individual leagues and teamleagues. That's why I brought up the example of IM which had, without the shadow of a doubt, the greatest individual players of SC2 but always lost in teamleagues. Why? Unless you can answer that question, you're the one who has no case. You don't read very well. ? Why don't you answer about IM. Why didn't IM win every teamleague? 1 - Why? Care to counter argument? 2 - you don´t see IM losing to everyone im team leagues. IM got all killed by QXC back when Mvp and Nestea were the best players in the world. How is that possible if amazing individual players automatically mean that a team will do well, according to that other guy? iirc the QXC all kill was 3 B teamers and then Mvp as the last guy. I really think you should just give up this argument by the way ;o Mvp was the best player in the world, how could he possibly lose a Bo1?!?! Impossible!!! Yeah I'll give up soon. People just love to hate on player who lose Bo1s. When you have a losing record on 20 Bo1s, ofc you are not a better player compared to average. So you're saying a losing record in 20 Bo1s matters as much as about a positive winrate in individual leagues with Bo3s, Bo5s and Bo7s? What? don't get your point. Why shouldn't it matter the same? Bo3 are just 3 Bo1s.
No, because the more games are played, the likelier it is that the better player wins. A Bo1 is over after one game. A Bo3 gives the loser two more chances to win the series. Imagine if a player called "X" has a 10% winrate vs player "Y". In other words, he statistically only wins 1/10 games. His chance to take a series is higher in a Bo1 format than in Bo3.
That's basic probability calculus. The more games are played, the likelier it is that player Y wins the series.
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On February 02 2013 00:25 FineAndDandy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 00:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:18 FineAndDandy wrote:On February 02 2013 00:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:14 Dodgin wrote:On February 02 2013 00:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:06 Taipoka wrote:On February 02 2013 00:01 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:58 Arceus wrote:
lol at all those defenders. If you failed a bo1 with PRESET map AND opponent, you are bad. I mean cmon just one known map, one known opponent, days to prepare. Theres really no excuse if you cant do that, repeatedly no less WTF, silliest argument I've ever heard. On February 01 2013 23:56 SamsungStar wrote:On February 01 2013 23:56 DarkLordOlli wrote:
[quote]
That's the thing though, that's wrong. It's simply wrong. There IS a difference between individual leagues and teamleagues. That's why I brought up the example of IM which had, without the shadow of a doubt, the greatest individual players of SC2 but always lost in teamleagues. Why? Unless you can answer that question, you're the one who has no case. You don't read very well. ? Why don't you answer about IM. Why didn't IM win every teamleague? 1 - Why? Care to counter argument? 2 - you don´t see IM losing to everyone im team leagues. IM got all killed by QXC back when Mvp and Nestea were the best players in the world. How is that possible if amazing individual players automatically mean that a team will do well, according to that other guy? iirc the QXC all kill was 3 B teamers and then Mvp as the last guy. I really think you should just give up this argument by the way ;o Mvp was the best player in the world, how could he possibly lose a Bo1?!?! Impossible!!! Yeah I'll give up soon. People just love to hate on player who lose Bo1s. When you have a losing record on 20 Bo1s, ofc you are not a better player compared to average. So you're saying a losing record in 20 Bo1s matters as much as about a positive winrate in individual leagues with Bo3s, Bo5s and Bo7s? What? don't get your point. Why shouldn't it matter the same? Bo3 are just 3 Bo1s. I would even say Bo1s maybe matter more because every game is live or die situation.
No its not. BO3 are much more complicated than bo1s. How do you think MVP beat Rain in BO5 series in GSL S4?
Think about it. If you still dont understand then maybe ill be kind enough to explain
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On February 02 2013 00:29 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 00:25 FineAndDandy wrote:On February 02 2013 00:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:18 FineAndDandy wrote:On February 02 2013 00:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:14 Dodgin wrote:On February 02 2013 00:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:06 Taipoka wrote:On February 02 2013 00:01 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:58 Arceus wrote:
lol at all those defenders. If you failed a bo1 with PRESET map AND opponent, you are bad. I mean cmon just one known map, one known opponent, days to prepare. Theres really no excuse if you cant do that, repeatedly no less WTF, silliest argument I've ever heard. On February 01 2013 23:56 SamsungStar wrote:
[quote]
You don't read very well. ? Why don't you answer about IM. Why didn't IM win every teamleague? 1 - Why? Care to counter argument? 2 - you don´t see IM losing to everyone im team leagues. IM got all killed by QXC back when Mvp and Nestea were the best players in the world. How is that possible if amazing individual players automatically mean that a team will do well, according to that other guy? iirc the QXC all kill was 3 B teamers and then Mvp as the last guy. I really think you should just give up this argument by the way ;o Mvp was the best player in the world, how could he possibly lose a Bo1?!?! Impossible!!! Yeah I'll give up soon. People just love to hate on player who lose Bo1s. When you have a losing record on 20 Bo1s, ofc you are not a better player compared to average. So you're saying a losing record in 20 Bo1s matters as much as about a positive winrate in individual leagues with Bo3s, Bo5s and Bo7s? What? don't get your point. Why shouldn't it matter the same? Bo3 are just 3 Bo1s. No, because the more games are played, the likelier it is that the better player wins. A Bo1 is over after one game. A Bo3 gives the loser two more chances to win the series. Imagine if a player called "X" has a 10% winrate vs player "Y". In other words, he statistically only wins 1/10 games. His chance to take a series is higher in a Bo1 format than in Bo3. That's a basic probability calculus.
Ofc, 3 Bo3s are better than 3 Bo1s, that's 9 games against 3 games. But when you have the same amount of games played, 3 Bo3s compared to 9 Bo1s, I would weigh more on 9 Bo1s. In proleague, players face each other constantly, not just once.
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On February 02 2013 00:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 00:05 SamsungStar wrote:On February 02 2013 00:01 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:58 Arceus wrote:
lol at all those defenders. If you failed a bo1 with PRESET map AND opponent, you are bad. I mean cmon just one known map, one known opponent, days to prepare. Theres really no excuse if you cant do that, repeatedly no less WTF, silliest argument I've ever heard. Yeah, almost as bad as the guy arguing EGTL's losses in winner's league were due to their aces not getting more than once chance to win for their team. You are just way too rabid of a fanboy. EGTL's aces are strong, but so are the aces of other teams in PL like Grumbels said. You're way overestimating their skill and that's why you find yourself needing to defend your team's abysmal performance when to everyone else it's plain as day that your players are simply not as good as you claim. So who 3 killed Samsung Khan again? Oh right, HerO. Why did EGTL lose again? Oh right, because the rest of the lineup didn't perform. The team overall might be worse than the rest in PL, whatever. I'm not saying anything else. I don't even care about their performance, lol. All I'm saying is that the hate against their players is fucking retarded as hell because teamleagues don't show individual skill as much as individual leagues because you, as an individual player, only get a smaller amount of games which makes it easier for you to lose. That's how it is. Zenio for example might have a bad record in PL but hey, he made Code A which is something most kespa player can't say for themselves. That doesn't automatically mean that he's better of course. But he can't be as horrible as his PL statistics say.
Lol you love talking about "individual skill". For that matter, Winnerleague (in which you cite Hero's 3 kills) is not a good benchmark because you dont know your opponents, hence volatile as fuck.
However, Proleague (and OSL, GSL from the playoff) IS. Rational speaking, the best condition for one player to show his 100% A-game is when maps & opponent are known (thats why Starleague playoff does that). Being unable to perform in the ideal condition many times means that you are ultimately the worse player.
Zenio? One session of beating the randomness doesnt make him good. Meanwhile going 2-5 in SPL settings is only better than his terran fellow.
Mvp is the greatest WoL player of all time. But he always performed poorly in teamleagues. So if you looked at only his teamleague results, Mvp would have a negative winrate. That, according to your argument, would mean that he's bad. Meanwhile, he was the best individual player in the world. That means your thesis that teamleagues show skill as much as individual leagues or whatever you wanna call it is wrong.
I think my argument answer for this. MVP at his peak would go 200-0 in GSTL if it's not winnerleague style. Gumiho might be the best "improvisation" player in GSTL but he couldnt do much in GSL. Think about that
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On February 02 2013 00:25 FineAndDandy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 00:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:18 FineAndDandy wrote:On February 02 2013 00:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:14 Dodgin wrote:On February 02 2013 00:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:06 Taipoka wrote:On February 02 2013 00:01 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:58 Arceus wrote:
lol at all those defenders. If you failed a bo1 with PRESET map AND opponent, you are bad. I mean cmon just one known map, one known opponent, days to prepare. Theres really no excuse if you cant do that, repeatedly no less WTF, silliest argument I've ever heard. On February 01 2013 23:56 SamsungStar wrote:On February 01 2013 23:56 DarkLordOlli wrote:
[quote]
That's the thing though, that's wrong. It's simply wrong. There IS a difference between individual leagues and teamleagues. That's why I brought up the example of IM which had, without the shadow of a doubt, the greatest individual players of SC2 but always lost in teamleagues. Why? Unless you can answer that question, you're the one who has no case. You don't read very well. ? Why don't you answer about IM. Why didn't IM win every teamleague? 1 - Why? Care to counter argument? 2 - you don´t see IM losing to everyone im team leagues. IM got all killed by QXC back when Mvp and Nestea were the best players in the world. How is that possible if amazing individual players automatically mean that a team will do well, according to that other guy? iirc the QXC all kill was 3 B teamers and then Mvp as the last guy. I really think you should just give up this argument by the way ;o Mvp was the best player in the world, how could he possibly lose a Bo1?!?! Impossible!!! Yeah I'll give up soon. People just love to hate on player who lose Bo1s. When you have a losing record on 20 Bo1s, ofc you are not a better player compared to average. So you're saying a losing record in 20 Bo1s matters as much as about a positive winrate in individual leagues with Bo3s, Bo5s and Bo7s? What? don't get your point. Why shouldn't it matter the same? Bo3 are just 3 Bo1s.
Yeah, if you ignore silly stuff like mental strength, mind games, nerves, stamina, map choice/preparation (speshul tactiks)... You know, the stuff that makes champions.
Source: Mr. LWW Jae Dong
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 02 2013 00:40 Arceus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 00:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:05 SamsungStar wrote:On February 02 2013 00:01 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:58 Arceus wrote:
lol at all those defenders. If you failed a bo1 with PRESET map AND opponent, you are bad. I mean cmon just one known map, one known opponent, days to prepare. Theres really no excuse if you cant do that, repeatedly no less WTF, silliest argument I've ever heard. Yeah, almost as bad as the guy arguing EGTL's losses in winner's league were due to their aces not getting more than once chance to win for their team. You are just way too rabid of a fanboy. EGTL's aces are strong, but so are the aces of other teams in PL like Grumbels said. You're way overestimating their skill and that's why you find yourself needing to defend your team's abysmal performance when to everyone else it's plain as day that your players are simply not as good as you claim. So who 3 killed Samsung Khan again? Oh right, HerO. Why did EGTL lose again? Oh right, because the rest of the lineup didn't perform. The team overall might be worse than the rest in PL, whatever. I'm not saying anything else. I don't even care about their performance, lol. All I'm saying is that the hate against their players is fucking retarded as hell because teamleagues don't show individual skill as much as individual leagues because you, as an individual player, only get a smaller amount of games which makes it easier for you to lose. That's how it is. Zenio for example might have a bad record in PL but hey, he made Code A which is something most kespa player can't say for themselves. That doesn't automatically mean that he's better of course. But he can't be as horrible as his PL statistics say. Lol you love talking about "individual skill". For that matter, Winnerleague (in which you cite Hero's 3 kills) is not a good benchmark because you dont know your opponents, hence volatile as fuck. However, Proleague (and OSL, GSL from the playoff) IS. Rational speaking, the best condition for one player to show his 100% A-game is when maps & opponent are known (thats why Starleague playoff does that). Being unable to perform in the ideal condition many times means that you are ultimately the worse player. Zenio? One session of beating the randomness doesnt make him good. Meanwhile going 2-5 in SPL settings is only better than his terran fellow.
Actually the best condition for a player to show his absolute best is in as many games as possible with known opponents on known maps. GSL Bo7 finals for example.
Because that provides the statistical stability of the better player likelier winning the longer series while also providing the ability to extensively prepare for an opponent & the maps.
If you get blind countered by an arguably worse player than you once in a Bo1, you lose the whole series. Doesn't matter if you've studied your opponent and the map for weeks. If it happens once in a Bo7, you lose one map but might win the next 4 straight. In that case, it's a much more skill-indicative series than a Bo1.
Well, all these arguments are basically meant to say one thing: if EGTL performs poorly as a team, that doesn't automatically mean that the players are as bad as their team's results, especially seeing how most EGTL players have better results in individual leagues than in PL.
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On February 02 2013 00:41 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 00:25 FineAndDandy wrote:On February 02 2013 00:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:18 FineAndDandy wrote:On February 02 2013 00:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:14 Dodgin wrote:On February 02 2013 00:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:06 Taipoka wrote:On February 02 2013 00:01 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:58 Arceus wrote:
lol at all those defenders. If you failed a bo1 with PRESET map AND opponent, you are bad. I mean cmon just one known map, one known opponent, days to prepare. Theres really no excuse if you cant do that, repeatedly no less WTF, silliest argument I've ever heard. On February 01 2013 23:56 SamsungStar wrote:
[quote]
You don't read very well. ? Why don't you answer about IM. Why didn't IM win every teamleague? 1 - Why? Care to counter argument? 2 - you don´t see IM losing to everyone im team leagues. IM got all killed by QXC back when Mvp and Nestea were the best players in the world. How is that possible if amazing individual players automatically mean that a team will do well, according to that other guy? iirc the QXC all kill was 3 B teamers and then Mvp as the last guy. I really think you should just give up this argument by the way ;o Mvp was the best player in the world, how could he possibly lose a Bo1?!?! Impossible!!! Yeah I'll give up soon. People just love to hate on player who lose Bo1s. When you have a losing record on 20 Bo1s, ofc you are not a better player compared to average. So you're saying a losing record in 20 Bo1s matters as much as about a positive winrate in individual leagues with Bo3s, Bo5s and Bo7s? What? don't get your point. Why shouldn't it matter the same? Bo3 are just 3 Bo1s. Yeah, if you ignore silly stuff like mental strength, mind games, nerves, stamina, map choice/preparation (speshul tactiks)... You know, the stuff that makes champions. Source: Mr. LWW Jae Dong
Thank You sir, you saved my time writing the exact same thing. Some people just dont seem to get it lol
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Hey guys, just want to pop in here as a fan of TLEG! Just want to say well played by Khan, and to say we're not all crazy!
...Jesus, some people are stating WoL beta results as evidence TLEG prowess. My god, this must be what it's like to be a Leafs fan.
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On February 02 2013 00:49 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 00:40 Arceus wrote:On February 02 2013 00:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2013 00:05 SamsungStar wrote:On February 02 2013 00:01 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 01 2013 23:58 Arceus wrote:
lol at all those defenders. If you failed a bo1 with PRESET map AND opponent, you are bad. I mean cmon just one known map, one known opponent, days to prepare. Theres really no excuse if you cant do that, repeatedly no less WTF, silliest argument I've ever heard. Yeah, almost as bad as the guy arguing EGTL's losses in winner's league were due to their aces not getting more than once chance to win for their team. You are just way too rabid of a fanboy. EGTL's aces are strong, but so are the aces of other teams in PL like Grumbels said. You're way overestimating their skill and that's why you find yourself needing to defend your team's abysmal performance when to everyone else it's plain as day that your players are simply not as good as you claim. So who 3 killed Samsung Khan again? Oh right, HerO. Why did EGTL lose again? Oh right, because the rest of the lineup didn't perform. The team overall might be worse than the rest in PL, whatever. I'm not saying anything else. I don't even care about their performance, lol. All I'm saying is that the hate against their players is fucking retarded as hell because teamleagues don't show individual skill as much as individual leagues because you, as an individual player, only get a smaller amount of games which makes it easier for you to lose. That's how it is. Zenio for example might have a bad record in PL but hey, he made Code A which is something most kespa player can't say for themselves. That doesn't automatically mean that he's better of course. But he can't be as horrible as his PL statistics say. Lol you love talking about "individual skill". For that matter, Winnerleague (in which you cite Hero's 3 kills) is not a good benchmark because you dont know your opponents, hence volatile as fuck. However, Proleague (and OSL, GSL from the playoff) IS. Rational speaking, the best condition for one player to show his 100% A-game is when maps & opponent are known (thats why Starleague playoff does that). Being unable to perform in the ideal condition many times means that you are ultimately the worse player. Zenio? One session of beating the randomness doesnt make him good. Meanwhile going 2-5 in SPL settings is only better than his terran fellow. Actually the best condition for a player to show his absolute best is in as many games as possible with known opponents on known maps. GSL Bo7 finals for example. Because that provides the statistical stability of the better player likelier winning the longer series while also providing the ability to extensively prepare for an opponent & the maps. If you get blind countered by an arguably worse player than you once in a Bo1, you lose the whole series. Doesn't matter if you've studied your opponent and the map for weeks. If it happens once in a Bo7, you lose one map but might win the next 4 straight. In that case, it's a much more skill-indicative series than a Bo1. Well, all these arguments are basically meant to say one thing: if EGTL performs poorly as a team, that doesn't automatically mean that the players are as bad as their team's results, especially seeing how most EGTL players have better results in individual leagues than in PL.
Well duh I mean can you seriously compare a bunch of foreigners + 3 or 4 GSL players throughout the brackets to an all-Korean teamleague. EGTL's best are good, most of the others are average at beat.
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lol. People implying that a Bo1 isnt volatile and unpredictable just because they know the opponent and map before hand.
This is what probably happens, while getting ready for a Bo1 like the ones in proleague. They look at the map, and the player. They look at how the player plays, on said maps. Then they'll prepare a specialized build, to try and best defeat that specific player, on that specific map. Guess what the other guy does? THE SAME THING.
So what has a good chance of happening is, both players will be preparing for each others normal styles. So neither of them will play quite normally because theyre both trying to pre-counter what they think the other will do. Its kind of all or nothing.
So thats why theres DEFINATLY a difference between teamleague Bo1 and individual league Bo3/5/7.
Some people are just better at reading others. In a long series, it won't matter as much. An upset can still be had since theres a finite number of games in the series, but generally the better player will win a longer series. A Bo1 is still largely up to chance, even when opponent and map is known before hand. Theres only so much adaptation and on the fly reacting you can do. EGTL has the talented players. I honestly think the coaches have no idea what-so-ever as to what to do, so thats why they're struggling. The other Proleague teams have been at this system and format for years. They know how to read teams and their players, and know what kind of builds to go for dependent on what the maps are like. EGTL has the sheer skill. They just need to refine their Proleague coaching and preperation. Which I feel like they're going to be behind in for probably another season, unless they bring in veteran Proleague coaches.
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Were any of the games close/entertaining? Didn't get to watch 
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there is probably enough whine about EGTL performing underwhelming.
i just want to add some more.
often i read that EGTL got the best lineup in proleague, but if you look close, this isnt true.
(i dont want to say its the worst lineup)
the core of the team are zenio, puma, jd and jyp.
these are players you expect between code a and code b (i know jd is a legend, but its another game).
i would say jd & jyp doing surprisingly good but even so their records are 10-9 & 7-6
zenio & puma together got 2-11
now you cant replace these players easily. the backup players are thorzain & huk wich are not on the same level as koreans yet.
then there are the "expected to be" stronger players.
the story of hero is tricky. its ether bad luck or good mindgame from opponent teams but he mostly had to play PvP.
All his loses in round 1 & 3 are PvPs.
Taeja is doing his thing.
Stephano & Revival need more games.
But all these players are now in GSL* and iam sure their focus is on GSL wich makes them weaker choices for proleague and this is why the core of team has to put their shoulders to the wheel and i doubt they are strong enough to move EGTL in a position where people say "yes thats what i expected from the team with the best lineup".
(* zenio is back in code a too but it will be hard for him to stay)
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EPT
