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Austria24420 Posts
On January 25 2013 23:02 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 22:56 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 25 2013 22:43 sitromit wrote:On January 25 2013 22:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 25 2013 22:23 _SpiRaL_ wrote:On January 25 2013 21:50 Waxangel wrote:
what's going on behind the scenes that leads to this madness?
has infestor-turtle into brood lords been getting record low win rates on ladder ?! I dont know what you mean behind the scenes. Blizzard don't patch in secret. Infestor broodlord turtle is getting raped on ladder as never before by air toss or simply good protoss mothership usage and engagements. This was nigh on impossible before. I feel the need to keep repeating because people act surprised but the 3 nerfs to infestor combined are probably the biggest nerf in the history of sc2. Only that hots is coming out so its pretty moot I'd say z went from op to weakest race in one fell swoop. Not so sure about weakest race. Infestor/BL is still extremely hard to beat as protoss considering the timings. BL/infestor is out WAY earlier than any protoss air army and it still does extremely well vs anything protoss has on the ground. It's just not completely unbeatable anymore. Pre-hive 3 base pushes were already very hard for Zerg to hold, win rates were never bad for Protoss because of how powerful 2-3 base all ins were. Now the 3 base pushes are even harder to hold with nerfed Infestors, and if the Zerg does get to Broodlords, Protoss can turtle with a mothership and get out the air army. Protosses didn't have problem turtling before, they just had difficulty making Skytoss work, now they don't. It was that Protoss was stronger until Infestor/Broodlord, Zerg was stronger after. That seems to no longer be the case, hence you see all these Zergs trying to kill the Protoss somehow as they take their 3rd, to avoid the 3 base death push, or the late-game Skytoss turtle into loss. Well, a 3 base all in is still an all in. If it fails, zerg still wins the game. The only thing that's changed now is that maybe protoss can now shift their gameplan. If they would have added gateways and chronoed +3 weapons as fast as possible with colossi coming out, they might now be able to revert back to a similar style to what HerO originally popularized, skipping colossi, going right into templar, maybe double forge to capitalize on the nerf even more. The point I'm trying to make is, if protoss do that, they have to start setting up for it early enough for zergs to figure out what they're up to and change their own plan according to it. You still won't be able to do a 3 base attack without having to do a certain amount of damage. So as for 3 base pushes, nothing has changed except that they're now harder to hold, which I agree with. So the main thing that's changed is that there's now a clock for zerg as well. BL/infestor is not the ultimate composition that beats everything at any point in the game anymore. If protoss takes a 4th base or fails a 3 base attack, that's when it'll be most effective (as it always has been). Except now, if protoss gets that 4th base up and starts taking advantage of it while zerg just sits back on mass spines, protoss will be able to build an army that beats BL/infestor (I think). As it should be, if you stick with one composition for too long, you should lose to a superior composition by your opponent. You say Zerg should lose for staying on one composition for too long, but Infestor/Broodlord is the end of the Zerg tech tree, there is no more tech, there is not another, better unit to transition to. And when Zergs turtled behind spines, they didn't do it because they enjoy games that drag out for 40 minutes, they did it because for all its OPness, that's what it still took to win with that composition.
So? High templar are the end of the protoss tech tree in that regard. They still lose to Ghosts. BCs are the end of the terran tech tree and they lose to a composition designed to counter them. Every unit composition has a counter composition (or should have). Maybe zergs just have to start thinking about how many of their corruptors they morph. You can't expect to beat a mass air army when half the units in your army only attack ground >_>
So, if protoss forgoes colossus production to take a 4th base and then builds towards beating a BL/infestor army, why not mix in hydras to beat that protoss air army for example (just spitballing)? Zergs just have to get away from the thought that one unit composition is supposed to be able to beat everything
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On January 25 2013 22:56 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 22:48 vthree wrote:On January 25 2013 22:43 sitromit wrote:On January 25 2013 22:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:On January 25 2013 22:23 _SpiRaL_ wrote:On January 25 2013 21:50 Waxangel wrote:
what's going on behind the scenes that leads to this madness?
has infestor-turtle into brood lords been getting record low win rates on ladder ?! I dont know what you mean behind the scenes. Blizzard don't patch in secret. Infestor broodlord turtle is getting raped on ladder as never before by air toss or simply good protoss mothership usage and engagements. This was nigh on impossible before. I feel the need to keep repeating because people act surprised but the 3 nerfs to infestor combined are probably the biggest nerf in the history of sc2. Only that hots is coming out so its pretty moot I'd say z went from op to weakest race in one fell swoop. Not so sure about weakest race. Infestor/BL is still extremely hard to beat as protoss considering the timings. BL/infestor is out WAY earlier than any protoss air army and it still does extremely well vs anything protoss has on the ground. It's just not completely unbeatable anymore. Pre-hive 3 base pushes were already very hard for Zerg to hold, win rates were never bad for Protoss because of how powerful 2-3 base all ins were. Now the 3 base pushes are even harder to hold with nerfed Infestors, and if the Zerg does get to Broodlords, Protoss can turtle with a mothership and get out the air army. Protosses didn't have problem turtling before, they just had difficulty making Skytoss work, now they don't. It was that Protoss was stronger until Infestor/Broodlord, Zerg was stronger after. That seems to no longer be the case, hence you see all these Zergs trying to kill the Protoss somehow as they take their 3rd, to avoid the 3 base death push, or the late-game Skytoss turtle into loss. We have seen 1 game where Skytoss worked. I think we will have to see a few more before we can conclude that this is the case. That's because out of 19 maps of PvZ played so far, we saw only 1 game go to Infestor/Broodlord lategame, which transitioned into Skytoss win. Do you think all these pros suddenly forgot how to build Broodlords?
You know there was a time when after the Queen and Overlord buff when terrans were trying new stuff other than hellion banshee. And artosis was saying crap about how happy he was that the matchup was going to become less stale with that opening becoming less popular. Then suddenly terrans just kept on doing it just as much as they used to pre-patch after a few months of stuff.
Basically what I'm saying is, it's way too early to say anything because pros need to figure it out. Besides, right after the Queen buff, zergs just did not lose to terran at all before it started to mellow out again. If 4/8 zergs can make it through despite this latest patch then it's looking pretty good for them in a month.
EDIT: Actually I totally expect zerg to win more for the rest of Code S ro32. There are mostly TvZs left and for the most part that matchup wasn't changed that much...
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Back to the time of previous finalist getting eliminated right away
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And we actually see zergs trying different tactics with decent success. Drops, Nydus, hydras, ultras, mutas are all being used more. So it kind of nullifies the Zerg needs infestor/BL to win theory.
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This grup was just crazy...
On one hand my LB is dead but hi, another toss in the RO16.
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While 2P/2T/4Z advanced sofar, that is exactly the same ratio for players dropped down to Code A atm, I like it!
Though at least 1 more terran player will advance since group F has 3 of them, but hey. =)
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Man, what happened HyuN...
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On January 25 2013 23:12 vthree wrote:
And we actually see zergs trying different tactics with decent success. Drops, Nydus, hydras, ultras, mutas are all being used more. So it kind of nullifies the Zerg needs infestor/BL to win theory.
I don't know if you're paying attention, but so far, in 19 maps, there has only been 1 game where Zerg won after Protoss successfully took a 3rd, and that's Symbol vs Creator on Ohana with the drops and in that game Squirtle had just taken his 3rd and hadn't really mined much from it when Symbol attacked. Drops haven't worked the other 2 times they were attempted. I wouldn't call 33% a decent success rate.
Every other Zerg win has come from defending a 2 base all in, successfully denying the Protoss 3rd, or Zerg doing an all in. This further proves my opinion that Zergs are trying to kill the Protoss before they get going on 3 bases or dying trying. Essentially the Zerg metagame seems to have gone back to 1.5-2 years ago, where the main principle was that if you let Protoss get a 3rd, you have lost the game.
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On January 25 2013 23:40 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 23:12 vthree wrote:
And we actually see zergs trying different tactics with decent success. Drops, Nydus, hydras, ultras, mutas are all being used more. So it kind of nullifies the Zerg needs infestor/BL to win theory. I don't know if you're paying attention, but so far, in 19 maps, there has only been 1 game where Zerg won after Protoss successfully took a 3rd, and that's Symbol vs Creator on Ohana with the drops and in that game Squirtle had just taken his 3rd and hadn't really mined much from it when Symbol attacked. Drops haven't worked the other 2 times they were attempted. I wouldn't call 33% a decent success rate. Every other Zerg win has come from defending a 2 base all in, successfully denying the Protoss 3rd, or Zerg doing an all in. This further proves my opinion that Zergs are trying to kill the Protoss before they get going on 3 bases or dying trying.
So basically what you are saying is that it is now reverse from before. Instead of Protoss doing 2-3 base timing. It is the zerg doing 2-3 base timing. And judging from the win rate, zergs seem to be doing fine with their early/mid game. So it seems like the NEED for infestor/BL was overblown.
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Austria24420 Posts
On January 25 2013 23:40 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 23:12 vthree wrote:
And we actually see zergs trying different tactics with decent success. Drops, Nydus, hydras, ultras, mutas are all being used more. So it kind of nullifies the Zerg needs infestor/BL to win theory. I don't know if you're paying attention, but so far, in 19 maps, there has only been 1 game where Zerg won after Protoss successfully took a 3rd, and that's Symbol vs Creator on Ohana with the drops and in that game Squirtle had just taken his 3rd and hadn't really mined much from it when Symbol attacked. Drops haven't worked the other 2 times they were attempted. I wouldn't call 33% a decent success rate. Every other Zerg win has come from defending a 2 base all in, successfully denying the Protoss 3rd, or Zerg doing an all in. This further proves my opinion that Zergs are trying to kill the Protoss before they get going on 3 bases or dying trying. Essentially the Zerg metagame seems to have gone back to 1.5-2 years ago, where the main principle was that if you let Protoss get a 3rd, you have lost the game.
They just gotta get better at reading the game then. Protoss doesn't just pop out with a 3 base all in. Their whole gameplan is shaped so they can do that attack. It's not hard to figure out if you do some scouting. Just gotta morph em overseers more often, ETC. If protoss is taking a 4th, they have to have certain tech out to do it (templar tech, some stargate tech). So basically, if zerg scouts that tech => safe, proceed with your standard plans. If lack of that tech => not safe, prepare for 3 base attack. WAY too often do you see zergs realize that an attack is incoming when protoss is already halfway across the map.
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On January 25 2013 23:40 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 23:12 vthree wrote:
And we actually see zergs trying different tactics with decent success. Drops, Nydus, hydras, ultras, mutas are all being used more. So it kind of nullifies the Zerg needs infestor/BL to win theory. I don't know if you're paying attention, but so far, in 19 maps, there has only been 1 game where Zerg won after Protoss successfully took a 3rd, and that's Symbol vs Creator on Ohana with the drops and in that game Squirtle had just taken his 3rd and hadn't really mined much from it when Symbol attacked. Drops haven't worked the other 2 times they were attempted. I wouldn't call 33% a decent success rate. Every other Zerg win has come from defending a 2 base all in, successfully denying the Protoss 3rd, or Zerg doing an all in. This further proves my opinion that Zergs are trying to kill the Protoss before they get going on 3 bases or dying trying. Essentially the Zerg metagame seems to have gone back to 1.5-2 years ago, where the main principle was that if you let Protoss get a 3rd, you have lost the game.
God forbid zerg has to do the same shit terrans and protosses have been forced to do for months.
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4 days in a row we got a player with 4-0 score D: Life Mc Bomber and 4B :O Such a good season GSL
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On January 26 2013 00:13 foxj wrote:
4 days in a row we got a player with 4-0 score D: Life Mc Bomber and 4B :O Such a good season GSL
b4, not 4b, also he got 4-1
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United States97276 Posts
On January 26 2013 00:13 foxj wrote:
4 days in a row we got a player with 4-0 score D: Life Mc Bomber and 4B :O Such a good season GSL
BBoongBBoong went 4-1
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I'm surprised that BBoongBBoong made it through, but I don't mind as long as Squirtle did too 
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Squirtle fighting!!! Can't believe B4 got through in 1st place though, that's insane. I thought for sure it was going to be Hyun and Squirtle, in that order!
Edit: With mass recall gone, mass Infestor/Corruptor is good against mass Skytoss now. You used to be able to go mass 3/3/3 Void Ray and have a defensive mothership sitting under like 20 Cannons at your natural or main and run around killing hatcheries and tech structures with a max VoidRay army and recall them as soon as you got fungaled, rinse, and repeat and literally never lose the game because to attack into you they had to fight mass void rays on top of an insane amount of cannons. With that option gone, Fungal obviously rapes air toss. Corruptors and a lot of burrowed infestors (and some overseers to snipe obs, make sure you don't lose all your infestors before you can chain fungal everything). You just have to unborrow like 4 at a time and accept that to fungal a mass air army once you need to lose more than 1 infestor. Without the defensive mothership, it really is a LOT easier to deal with skytoss, not imbalanced vs Z at all.
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EPT
