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TheBB
Switzerland5133 Posts
On January 25 2013 21:58 DaRKMaTT3r wrote: Liquipedia is showing: 1 protoss 3 terrans and 4 zergs on Ro16, when its actualy 2/2/4. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S Squirtle just wasn't updated. There's another Terran guaranteed from group F, which is why that count is 3. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On January 25 2013 21:58 DaRKMaTT3r wrote: Liquipedia is showing: 1 protoss 3 terrans and 4 zergs on Ro16, when its actualy 2/2/4. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S It is actually 2/3/4 but they just hadn't update Squirtle yet. There is 3 terrans but 1 Terran will make it from group F for sure. | ||
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
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Ctesias
4595 Posts
On January 25 2013 05:44 Ctesias wrote: Head: Hyun and Squirtle. Heart: Hyun and Squirtle. One of the few times these correspond. Guess that'll set up an even bigger disappointment, with neither of them advancing. Well, half-right. Stupid BboongBboong is why we* can't have nice things. *Actually means I. | ||
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Thurken
961 Posts
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_SpiRaL_
Afghanistan1636 Posts
On January 25 2013 21:50 Waxangel wrote: what's going on behind the scenes that leads to this madness? has infestor-turtle into brood lords been getting record low win rates on ladder ?! I dont know what you mean behind the scenes. Blizzard don't patch in secret. Infestor broodlord turtle is getting raped on ladder as never before by air toss or simply good protoss mothership usage and engagements. This was nigh on impossible before. I feel the need to keep repeating because people act surprised but the 3 nerfs to infestor combined are probably the biggest nerf in the history of sc2. Only that hots is coming out so its pretty moot I'd say z went from op to weakest race in one fell swoop. | ||
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Wampaibist
United States478 Posts
On January 25 2013 22:20 Thurken wrote: Can someone tell me how BboongBboong beat Squirtle? artosis cursed the group saying there's no way bboongbboong (someone who names themselves after a fart) can advance | ||
Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
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Olli
Austria24420 Posts
On January 25 2013 22:23 _SpiRaL_ wrote: I dont know what you mean behind the scenes. Blizzard don't patch in secret. Infestor broodlord turtle is getting raped on ladder as never before by air toss or simply good protoss mothership usage and engagements. This was nigh on impossible before. I feel the need to keep repeating because people act surprised but the 3 nerfs to infestor combined are probably the biggest nerf in the history of sc2. Only that hots is coming out so its pretty moot I'd say z went from op to weakest race in one fell swoop. Not so sure about weakest race. Infestor/BL is still extremely hard to beat as protoss considering the timings. BL/infestor is out WAY earlier than any protoss air army and it still does extremely well vs anything protoss has on the ground. It's just not completely unbeatable anymore. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On January 25 2013 22:23 _SpiRaL_ wrote: I dont know what you mean behind the scenes. Blizzard don't patch in secret. Infestor broodlord turtle is getting raped on ladder as never before by air toss or simply good protoss mothership usage and engagements. This was nigh on impossible before. I feel the need to keep repeating because people act surprised but the 3 nerfs to infestor combined are probably the biggest nerf in the history of sc2. Only that hots is coming out so its pretty moot I'd say z went from op to weakest race in one fell swoop. Well, 4 out of the 8 zergs have made it to Ro16. I am not sure we can say they are the weakest race. And if you talk about nerfs, I would say the ghost EMP+snipe is at least up there with the infestor nerfs. It just seems that zergs will actually have to try to attack with infestors BLs now instead of just sitting them on top of spines and make more infestors and BLs. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On January 25 2013 22:33 DarkLordOlli wrote: Not so sure about weakest race. Infestor/BL is still extremely hard to beat as protoss considering the timings. BL/infestor is out WAY earlier than any protoss air army and it still does extremely well vs anything protoss has on the ground. It's just not completely unbeatable anymore. Pre-hive 3 base pushes were already very hard for Zerg to hold, win rates were never bad for Protoss because of how powerful 2-3 base all ins were. Now the 3 base pushes are even harder to hold with nerfed Infestors, and if the Zerg does get to Broodlords, Protoss can turtle with a mothership and get out the air army. Protosses didn't have problem turtling before, they just had difficulty making Skytoss work, now they don't. It was that Protoss was stronger until Infestor/Broodlord, Zerg was stronger after. That seems to no longer be the case, hence you see all these Zergs trying to kill the Protoss somehow as they take their 3rd, to avoid the 3 base death push, or the late-game Skytoss turtle into loss. | ||
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_SpiRaL_
Afghanistan1636 Posts
On January 25 2013 22:33 DarkLordOlli wrote: Not so sure about weakest race. Infestor/BL is still extremely hard to beat as protoss considering the timings. BL/infestor is out WAY earlier than any protoss air army and it still does extremely well vs anything protoss has on the ground. It's just not completely unbeatable anymore. You may be right. Only time would tell but because of hots as I mentioned we wont know. Someone like life could win the gsl and make it seem like z was op right up until the end which imo is definitely no longer true. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On January 25 2013 22:43 sitromit wrote: Pre-hive 3 base pushes were already very hard for Zerg to hold, win rates were never bad for Protoss because of how powerful 2-3 base all ins were. Now the 3 base pushes are even harder to hold with nerfed Infestors, and if the Zerg does get to Broodlords, Protoss can turtle with a mothership and get out the air army. Protosses didn't have problem turtling before, they just had difficulty making Skytoss work, now they don't. It was that Protoss was stronger until Infestor/Broodlord, Zerg was stronger after. That seems to no longer be the case, hence you see all these Zergs trying to kill the Protoss somehow as they take their 3rd, to avoid the 3 base death push, or the late-game Skytoss turtle into loss. We have seen 1 game where Skytoss worked. I think we will have to see a few more before we can conclude that this is the case. | ||
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X3GoldDot
Malaysia3840 Posts
On January 25 2013 22:48 vthree wrote: We have seen 1 game where Skytoss worked. I think we will have to see a few more before we can conclude that this is the case. eh squirtle have won a couple of games with skytoss, infact i dont remember him losing any games as skytoss yet | ||
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Olli
Austria24420 Posts
On January 25 2013 22:43 sitromit wrote: Pre-hive 3 base pushes were already very hard for Zerg to hold, win rates were never bad for Protoss because of how powerful 2-3 base all ins were. Now the 3 base pushes are even harder to hold with nerfed Infestors, and if the Zerg does get to Broodlords, Protoss can turtle with a mothership and get out the air army. Protosses didn't have problem turtling before, they just had difficulty making Skytoss work, now they don't. It was that Protoss was stronger until Infestor/Broodlord, Zerg was stronger after. That seems to no longer be the case, hence you see all these Zergs trying to kill the Protoss somehow as they take their 3rd, to avoid the 3 base death push, or the late-game Skytoss turtle into loss. Well, a 3 base all in is still an all in. If it fails, zerg still wins the game. The only thing that's changed now is that maybe protoss can now shift their gameplan. If they would have added gateways and chronoed +3 weapons as fast as possible with colossi coming out, they might now be able to revert back to a similar style to what HerO originally popularized, skipping colossi, going right into templar, maybe double forge to capitalize on the nerf even more. The point I'm trying to make is, if protoss do that, they have to start setting up for it early enough for zergs to figure out what they're up to and change their own plan according to it. You still won't be able to do a 3 base attack without having to do a certain amount of damage. So as for 3 base pushes, nothing has changed except that they're now harder to hold, which I agree with. So the main thing that's changed is that there's now a clock for zerg as well. BL/infestor is not the ultimate composition that beats everything at any point in the game anymore. If protoss takes a 4th base or fails a 3 base attack, that's when it'll be most effective (as it always has been). Except now, if protoss gets that 4th base up and starts taking advantage of it while zerg just sits back on mass spines, protoss will be able to build an army that beats BL/infestor (I think). As it should be, if you stick with one composition for too long, you should lose to a superior composition by your opponent. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On January 25 2013 22:48 vthree wrote: We have seen 1 game where Skytoss worked. I think we will have to see a few more before we can conclude that this is the case. That's because out of 19 maps of PvZ played so far, we saw only 1 game go to Infestor/Broodlord lategame, which transitioned into Skytoss win. Do you think all these pros suddenly forgot how to build Broodlords? | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On January 25 2013 22:53 X3GoldDot wrote: eh squirtle have won a couple of games with skytoss, infact i dont remember him losing any games as skytoss yet Which games? | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On January 25 2013 22:56 sitromit wrote: That's because out of 19 maps of PvZ played so far, we saw only 1 game go to Infestor/Broodlord lategame, which transitioned into Skytoss win. Do you think all these pros suddenly forgot how to build Broodlords? Yup, just like all the terrans pros forgot to make ghosts vZ when all the zergs were claiming they were still good vs infestors. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On January 25 2013 22:56 DarkLordOlli wrote: Well, a 3 base all in is still an all in. If it fails, zerg still wins the game. The only thing that's changed now is that maybe protoss can now shift their gameplan. If they would have added gateways and chronoed +3 weapons as fast as possible with colossi coming out, they might now be able to revert back to a similar style to what HerO originally popularized, skipping colossi, going right into templar, maybe double forge to capitalize on the nerf even more. The point I'm trying to make is, if protoss do that, they have to start setting up for it early enough for zergs to figure out what they're up to and change their own plan according to it. You still won't be able to do a 3 base attack without having to do a certain amount of damage. So as for 3 base pushes, nothing has changed except that they're now harder to hold, which I agree with. So the main thing that's changed is that there's now a clock for zerg as well. BL/infestor is not the ultimate composition that beats everything at any point in the game anymore. If protoss takes a 4th base or fails a 3 base attack, that's when it'll be most effective (as it always has been). Except now, if protoss gets that 4th base up and starts taking advantage of it while zerg just sits back on mass spines, protoss will be able to build an army that beats BL/infestor (I think). As it should be, if you stick with one composition for too long, you should lose to a superior composition by your opponent. You say Zerg should lose for staying on one composition for too long, but Infestor/Broodlord is the end of the Zerg tech tree, there is no more tech, there is not another, better unit to transition to. And when Zergs turtled behind spines, they didn't do it because they enjoy games that drag out for 40 minutes, they did it because for all its OPness, that's what it still took to win with that composition. | ||
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
On January 25 2013 22:53 X3GoldDot wrote: eh squirtle have won a couple of games with skytoss, infact i dont remember him losing any games as skytoss yet That was before the infestor nerfs, they are talking afterwards. Also Squirtle did lose with skytoss once, at IPL5 he was knocked out of the tourney when he went skytoss on Emtombed. =( | ||
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