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On November 06 2012 01:29 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:23 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 01:10 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:57 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:48 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:43 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:35 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:29 Dodgin wrote:
The problem is you guys are looking at the numbers to justify either whining or defending about something being OP, you should be looking at the game itself and not just " x terrans are in GSL, x terrans are in WCS worlds " And how do you propose balancing without win/loss statistics? If you want to talk about game design, there are plenty of things wrong with sc2, for EVERY race. If you've been around since the beginning of sc2, then you would have tasted all of the different tears by now. Strategies shift, deal with it.If win/loss statistics justify it, balance will be made. Check out TvZ in Korean for Oct. This number is not going to stay the same though. You are looking at an extraordinarily small sample size (you linked to like 14 games played earlier from GSL, really?). I didn't link anything...there are a lot more than 14 TvZ games in Korea in October. No, it is not a huge sample size, it never is when you look at Korean offline tournaments. But when terrans used International results, we are told foreigner terrans have always been weak and we need to balance for the tip top. Kinda of convenient how that works out. Now, even the tip top results are bad for terrans, it is the sample size is not big enough... When you look at small sample sizes, random spikes tend to happen. If you look at the months before, it's a farcry. Wait another month or two and see if it even remains anywhere near the same. Remember when zergs was overrunning GSTL after the patch? The stats were pretty bad and terrans were told to wait as well. How many months has it been? Look, I am glad queens and overseers got buffed so zergs did just die to random allies since they had poor scouting and no map control. It has helped to stabilize the early game. Terrans just want a late game option. We don't want all terrans to play where they NEED to kill tons of drones with hellions or do tons of damage with drops. Sure, that should be one of the option with its own risks and rewards. But there should be other options. Right now, it just doesn't seem to be happening in most games. I couldn't find the TLPD winrates thread for September and October but here's the August one. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368146From that, you can see that it hasn't been unbearably rough for terrans. And the graph takes international winrates into consideration as well where foreign terrans supposedly lose left and right. I'm not against terran getting a buff or anything. All I'm saying is that if a buff is called for, it will be given. Or perhaps everyone would have already moved over to HoTS by then lol. Blizzard is painfully slow at fixing anything as we all know by now. It took them quite a long time to even buff zergs if you look back at it. I posted this above as well. But a buff to ravens was coming, being tested even. Then Mvp wins IEM and poof. Why this sudden change? It is like Life winning GSL, MLG with a lot of ling runbys and lings just get nerfed.
Whatever it was, I doubt it's due to Mvp winning. Blizzard makes weird decisions all the time without an explanation half the time.
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On November 06 2012 01:35 Zane wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:29 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 01:23 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 01:10 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:57 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:48 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:43 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:35 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:29 Dodgin wrote:
The problem is you guys are looking at the numbers to justify either whining or defending about something being OP, you should be looking at the game itself and not just " x terrans are in GSL, x terrans are in WCS worlds " And how do you propose balancing without win/loss statistics? If you want to talk about game design, there are plenty of things wrong with sc2, for EVERY race. If you've been around since the beginning of sc2, then you would have tasted all of the different tears by now. Strategies shift, deal with it.If win/loss statistics justify it, balance will be made. Check out TvZ in Korean for Oct. This number is not going to stay the same though. You are looking at an extraordinarily small sample size (you linked to like 14 games played earlier from GSL, really?). I didn't link anything...there are a lot more than 14 TvZ games in Korea in October. No, it is not a huge sample size, it never is when you look at Korean offline tournaments. But when terrans used International results, we are told foreigner terrans have always been weak and we need to balance for the tip top. Kinda of convenient how that works out. Now, even the tip top results are bad for terrans, it is the sample size is not big enough... When you look at small sample sizes, random spikes tend to happen. If you look at the months before, it's a farcry. Wait another month or two and see if it even remains anywhere near the same. Remember when zergs was overrunning GSTL after the patch? The stats were pretty bad and terrans were told to wait as well. How many months has it been? Look, I am glad queens and overseers got buffed so zergs did just die to random allies since they had poor scouting and no map control. It has helped to stabilize the early game. Terrans just want a late game option. We don't want all terrans to play where they NEED to kill tons of drones with hellions or do tons of damage with drops. Sure, that should be one of the option with its own risks and rewards. But there should be other options. Right now, it just doesn't seem to be happening in most games. I couldn't find the TLPD winrates thread for September and October but here's the August one. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368146From that, you can see that it hasn't been unbearably rough for terrans. And the graph takes international winrates into consideration as well where foreign terrans supposedly lose left and right. I'm not against terran getting a buff or anything. All I'm saying is that if a buff is called for, it will be given. Or perhaps everyone would have already moved over to HoTS by then lol. Blizzard is painfully slow at fixing anything as we all know by now. It took them quite a long time to even buff zergs if you look back at it. I posted this above as well. But a buff to ravens was coming, being tested even. Then Mvp wins IEM and poof. Why this sudden change? It is like Life winning GSL, MLG with a lot of ling runbys and lings just get nerfed. Or like T-Zain winning a game with thors and thors getting nerfed. Or like Mvp using mass ghost to win some games when he was ahead anyway and ghosts getting nerfed.
Wait what. Not sure which game you are referring to but the one I recall which got Ghosts nerfed Nestea was miles ahead (10,000/10,000) on resources and lost to snipe spam whenever he tried to attack despite being way ahead. Not saying he could not have handled that situation better but Ghost's were pretty freaking annoying for Zerg back then even when far ahead it made winning basically impossible.
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On November 06 2012 01:36 Maloreon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:35 Zane wrote:On November 06 2012 01:29 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 01:23 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 01:10 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:57 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:48 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:43 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:35 DigitalDevil wrote:
[quote]
And how do you propose balancing without win/loss statistics? If you want to talk about game design, there are plenty of things wrong with sc2, for EVERY race. If you've been around since the beginning of sc2, then you would have tasted all of the different tears by now. Strategies shift, deal with it.If win/loss statistics justify it, balance will be made. Check out TvZ in Korean for Oct. This number is not going to stay the same though. You are looking at an extraordinarily small sample size (you linked to like 14 games played earlier from GSL, really?). I didn't link anything...there are a lot more than 14 TvZ games in Korea in October. No, it is not a huge sample size, it never is when you look at Korean offline tournaments. But when terrans used International results, we are told foreigner terrans have always been weak and we need to balance for the tip top. Kinda of convenient how that works out. Now, even the tip top results are bad for terrans, it is the sample size is not big enough... When you look at small sample sizes, random spikes tend to happen. If you look at the months before, it's a farcry. Wait another month or two and see if it even remains anywhere near the same. Remember when zergs was overrunning GSTL after the patch? The stats were pretty bad and terrans were told to wait as well. How many months has it been? Look, I am glad queens and overseers got buffed so zergs did just die to random allies since they had poor scouting and no map control. It has helped to stabilize the early game. Terrans just want a late game option. We don't want all terrans to play where they NEED to kill tons of drones with hellions or do tons of damage with drops. Sure, that should be one of the option with its own risks and rewards. But there should be other options. Right now, it just doesn't seem to be happening in most games. I couldn't find the TLPD winrates thread for September and October but here's the August one. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368146From that, you can see that it hasn't been unbearably rough for terrans. And the graph takes international winrates into consideration as well where foreign terrans supposedly lose left and right. I'm not against terran getting a buff or anything. All I'm saying is that if a buff is called for, it will be given. Or perhaps everyone would have already moved over to HoTS by then lol. Blizzard is painfully slow at fixing anything as we all know by now. It took them quite a long time to even buff zergs if you look back at it. I posted this above as well. But a buff to ravens was coming, being tested even. Then Mvp wins IEM and poof. Why this sudden change? It is like Life winning GSL, MLG with a lot of ling runbys and lings just get nerfed. Or like T-Zain winning a game with thors and thors getting nerfed. Or like Mvp using mass ghost to win some games when he was ahead anyway and ghosts getting nerfed. Wait what. Not sure which game you are referring to but the one I recall which got Ghosts nerfed Nestea was miles ahead (10,000/10,000) on resources and lost to snipe spam whenever he tried to attack despite being way ahead. Not saying he could not have handled that situation better but Ghost's were pretty freaking annoying for Zerg back then even when far ahead it made winning basically impossible.
I don't think it was just due to that game but the patch did get rolled out coincidentally soon after. There were plenty of games before that too where zerg's entire T3 armada was getting sniped and they struggled to engage.
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On November 06 2012 01:36 Maloreon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:35 Zane wrote:On November 06 2012 01:29 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 01:23 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 01:10 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:57 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:48 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:43 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:35 DigitalDevil wrote:
[quote]
And how do you propose balancing without win/loss statistics? If you want to talk about game design, there are plenty of things wrong with sc2, for EVERY race. If you've been around since the beginning of sc2, then you would have tasted all of the different tears by now. Strategies shift, deal with it.If win/loss statistics justify it, balance will be made. Check out TvZ in Korean for Oct. This number is not going to stay the same though. You are looking at an extraordinarily small sample size (you linked to like 14 games played earlier from GSL, really?). I didn't link anything...there are a lot more than 14 TvZ games in Korea in October. No, it is not a huge sample size, it never is when you look at Korean offline tournaments. But when terrans used International results, we are told foreigner terrans have always been weak and we need to balance for the tip top. Kinda of convenient how that works out. Now, even the tip top results are bad for terrans, it is the sample size is not big enough... When you look at small sample sizes, random spikes tend to happen. If you look at the months before, it's a farcry. Wait another month or two and see if it even remains anywhere near the same. Remember when zergs was overrunning GSTL after the patch? The stats were pretty bad and terrans were told to wait as well. How many months has it been? Look, I am glad queens and overseers got buffed so zergs did just die to random allies since they had poor scouting and no map control. It has helped to stabilize the early game. Terrans just want a late game option. We don't want all terrans to play where they NEED to kill tons of drones with hellions or do tons of damage with drops. Sure, that should be one of the option with its own risks and rewards. But there should be other options. Right now, it just doesn't seem to be happening in most games. I couldn't find the TLPD winrates thread for September and October but here's the August one. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368146From that, you can see that it hasn't been unbearably rough for terrans. And the graph takes international winrates into consideration as well where foreign terrans supposedly lose left and right. I'm not against terran getting a buff or anything. All I'm saying is that if a buff is called for, it will be given. Or perhaps everyone would have already moved over to HoTS by then lol. Blizzard is painfully slow at fixing anything as we all know by now. It took them quite a long time to even buff zergs if you look back at it. I posted this above as well. But a buff to ravens was coming, being tested even. Then Mvp wins IEM and poof. Why this sudden change? It is like Life winning GSL, MLG with a lot of ling runbys and lings just get nerfed. Or like T-Zain winning a game with thors and thors getting nerfed. Or like Mvp using mass ghost to win some games when he was ahead anyway and ghosts getting nerfed. Wait what. Not sure which game you are referring to but the one I recall which got Ghosts nerfed Nestea was miles ahead (10,000/10,000) on resources and lost to snipe spam whenever he tried to attack despite being way ahead. Not saying he could not have handled that situation better but Ghost's were pretty freaking annoying for Zerg back then even when far ahead it made winning basically impossible.
I was thinking of the July and XiGua games on Metalopolis. Yeah, NesTea was ahead on Shakuras but he kinda threw that advantage by repeatedly attacking in PFs and turrets. Shakuras is just a terrible map, much like Metropolis.
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On November 06 2012 01:35 Maloreon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:22 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 01:17 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 01:10 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:57 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:48 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:43 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:35 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:29 Dodgin wrote:
The problem is you guys are looking at the numbers to justify either whining or defending about something being OP, you should be looking at the game itself and not just " x terrans are in GSL, x terrans are in WCS worlds " And how do you propose balancing without win/loss statistics? If you want to talk about game design, there are plenty of things wrong with sc2, for EVERY race. If you've been around since the beginning of sc2, then you would have tasted all of the different tears by now. Strategies shift, deal with it.If win/loss statistics justify it, balance will be made. Check out TvZ in Korean for Oct. This number is not going to stay the same though. You are looking at an extraordinarily small sample size (you linked to like 14 games played earlier from GSL, really?). I didn't link anything...there are a lot more than 14 TvZ games in Korea in October. No, it is not a huge sample size, it never is when you look at Korean offline tournaments. But when terrans used International results, we are told foreigner terrans have always been weak and we need to balance for the tip top. Kinda of convenient how that works out. Now, even the tip top results are bad for terrans, it is the sample size is not big enough... When you look at small sample sizes, random spikes tend to happen. If you look at the months before, it's a farcry. Wait another month or two and see if it even remains anywhere near the same. Remember when zergs was overrunning GSTL after the patch? The stats were pretty bad and terrans were told to wait as well. How many months has it been? Look, I am glad queens and overseers got buffed so zergs did just die to random allies since they had poor scouting and no map control. It has helped to stabilize the early game. Terrans just want a late game option. We don't want all terrans to play where they NEED to kill tons of drones with hellions or do tons of damage with drops. Sure, that should be one of the option with its own risks and rewards. But there should be other options. Right now, it just doesn't seem to be happening in most games. I personally think Terran do have good late-game options that few have explored (the random game here or there for Terran that does reach uber late-game seems to support my argument, but not enough games overall obviously). However I'd love for Terran endgame to get some buffs: I've supported buffs for Raven for example. Probably a big buff for BC's. Anyway, at the very least it might get the greatest Terrans actually motivated to give Turtle-mech a more serious look. Stats have held even, you're just citing an enormously small sample. I agree with you in that the game needs some love but Zerg is not overwhelming everyone: Life, Leenock, DRG, and Symbol are really. The greatest sc2 Terran DID that at a foreigner tournament and beat some foreigner zergs and a slumping Nestea.. Then the maps he could do them on (Metropolis, Atlantic Spaceship) were removed from GSL. Nerfing the Zerg creep spread at pro level was cancelled. Raven buffs cancelled. That is why some of us terrans get annoyed when we are told the sample size is too small or we need to wait a couple months. Blizzard had ALREADY had it in the testing patch and there didn't seem to be too many issues with balance yet. Then Mvp wins some of his games at IEM with ravens and patch gets cancelled. The BC and raven damage 'bug' in HoTS didn't help either. Yeah not sure if you are understanding me. I think the match-ups are pretty balanced numbers wise but I agree on the following: Raven should get buffed. BC should get buffed. I'm not against a creep nerf (minor one, 20% maybe). I like the maps you mentioned and miss them.
Oh, I understand. It was more directed at Blizzard. Anyways, nice to have a rational 'balance' discussion without name calling and sarcastic comments. As a spectator (I rarely even play SC2 anymore), I just like to see more strategies available.
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On November 06 2012 01:41 Zane wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:36 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 01:35 Zane wrote:On November 06 2012 01:29 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 01:23 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 01:10 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:57 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:48 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:43 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 vthree wrote:
[quote]
Check out TvZ in Korean for Oct. This number is not going to stay the same though. You are looking at an extraordinarily small sample size (you linked to like 14 games played earlier from GSL, really?). I didn't link anything...there are a lot more than 14 TvZ games in Korea in October. No, it is not a huge sample size, it never is when you look at Korean offline tournaments. But when terrans used International results, we are told foreigner terrans have always been weak and we need to balance for the tip top. Kinda of convenient how that works out. Now, even the tip top results are bad for terrans, it is the sample size is not big enough... When you look at small sample sizes, random spikes tend to happen. If you look at the months before, it's a farcry. Wait another month or two and see if it even remains anywhere near the same. Remember when zergs was overrunning GSTL after the patch? The stats were pretty bad and terrans were told to wait as well. How many months has it been? Look, I am glad queens and overseers got buffed so zergs did just die to random allies since they had poor scouting and no map control. It has helped to stabilize the early game. Terrans just want a late game option. We don't want all terrans to play where they NEED to kill tons of drones with hellions or do tons of damage with drops. Sure, that should be one of the option with its own risks and rewards. But there should be other options. Right now, it just doesn't seem to be happening in most games. I couldn't find the TLPD winrates thread for September and October but here's the August one. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368146From that, you can see that it hasn't been unbearably rough for terrans. And the graph takes international winrates into consideration as well where foreign terrans supposedly lose left and right. I'm not against terran getting a buff or anything. All I'm saying is that if a buff is called for, it will be given. Or perhaps everyone would have already moved over to HoTS by then lol. Blizzard is painfully slow at fixing anything as we all know by now. It took them quite a long time to even buff zergs if you look back at it. I posted this above as well. But a buff to ravens was coming, being tested even. Then Mvp wins IEM and poof. Why this sudden change? It is like Life winning GSL, MLG with a lot of ling runbys and lings just get nerfed. Or like T-Zain winning a game with thors and thors getting nerfed. Or like Mvp using mass ghost to win some games when he was ahead anyway and ghosts getting nerfed. Wait what. Not sure which game you are referring to but the one I recall which got Ghosts nerfed Nestea was miles ahead (10,000/10,000) on resources and lost to snipe spam whenever he tried to attack despite being way ahead. Not saying he could not have handled that situation better but Ghost's were pretty freaking annoying for Zerg back then even when far ahead it made winning basically impossible. I was thinking of the July and XiGua games on Metalopolis. Yeah, NesTea was ahead on Shakuras but he kinda threw that advantage by repeatedly attacking in PFs and turrets. Shakuras is just a terrible map, much like Metropolis.
Iirc, he made like 20+ broodlords which would have been fine vs planetary fortresses and turrets but he neglected corruptor support and got taken out by vikings and a handful of full energy ghosts with pre-patch snipes.
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On November 06 2012 01:36 DigitalDevil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:29 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 01:23 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 01:10 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:57 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:48 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:43 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:35 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:29 Dodgin wrote:
The problem is you guys are looking at the numbers to justify either whining or defending about something being OP, you should be looking at the game itself and not just " x terrans are in GSL, x terrans are in WCS worlds " And how do you propose balancing without win/loss statistics? If you want to talk about game design, there are plenty of things wrong with sc2, for EVERY race. If you've been around since the beginning of sc2, then you would have tasted all of the different tears by now. Strategies shift, deal with it.If win/loss statistics justify it, balance will be made. Check out TvZ in Korean for Oct. This number is not going to stay the same though. You are looking at an extraordinarily small sample size (you linked to like 14 games played earlier from GSL, really?). I didn't link anything...there are a lot more than 14 TvZ games in Korea in October. No, it is not a huge sample size, it never is when you look at Korean offline tournaments. But when terrans used International results, we are told foreigner terrans have always been weak and we need to balance for the tip top. Kinda of convenient how that works out. Now, even the tip top results are bad for terrans, it is the sample size is not big enough... When you look at small sample sizes, random spikes tend to happen. If you look at the months before, it's a farcry. Wait another month or two and see if it even remains anywhere near the same. Remember when zergs was overrunning GSTL after the patch? The stats were pretty bad and terrans were told to wait as well. How many months has it been? Look, I am glad queens and overseers got buffed so zergs did just die to random allies since they had poor scouting and no map control. It has helped to stabilize the early game. Terrans just want a late game option. We don't want all terrans to play where they NEED to kill tons of drones with hellions or do tons of damage with drops. Sure, that should be one of the option with its own risks and rewards. But there should be other options. Right now, it just doesn't seem to be happening in most games. I couldn't find the TLPD winrates thread for September and October but here's the August one. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368146From that, you can see that it hasn't been unbearably rough for terrans. And the graph takes international winrates into consideration as well where foreign terrans supposedly lose left and right. I'm not against terran getting a buff or anything. All I'm saying is that if a buff is called for, it will be given. Or perhaps everyone would have already moved over to HoTS by then lol. Blizzard is painfully slow at fixing anything as we all know by now. It took them quite a long time to even buff zergs if you look back at it. I posted this above as well. But a buff to ravens was coming, being tested even. Then Mvp wins IEM and poof. Why this sudden change? It is like Life winning GSL, MLG with a lot of ling runbys and lings just get nerfed. Whatever it was, I doubt it's due to Mvp winning. Blizzard makes weird decisions all the time without an explanation half the time.
I don't have the exact link but it was pretty obvious. The reason was given right after IEM. The reason said something like 'we have been seeing greater raven (non buff) usage in professional tournaments with great success. So we have decide to hold off the raven changes and observe this situation more.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
God damnit I intentionally skip watching today so I don't curse Mvp and he still loses
Oh well it's his off season (he can contractually only go to every other finals or else it gets predictable)
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On November 06 2012 01:45 DigitalDevil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:41 Zane wrote:On November 06 2012 01:36 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 01:35 Zane wrote:On November 06 2012 01:29 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 01:23 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 01:10 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:57 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:48 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:43 Maloreon wrote:
[quote]
This number is not going to stay the same though. You are looking at an extraordinarily small sample size (you linked to like 14 games played earlier from GSL, really?). I didn't link anything...there are a lot more than 14 TvZ games in Korea in October. No, it is not a huge sample size, it never is when you look at Korean offline tournaments. But when terrans used International results, we are told foreigner terrans have always been weak and we need to balance for the tip top. Kinda of convenient how that works out. Now, even the tip top results are bad for terrans, it is the sample size is not big enough... When you look at small sample sizes, random spikes tend to happen. If you look at the months before, it's a farcry. Wait another month or two and see if it even remains anywhere near the same. Remember when zergs was overrunning GSTL after the patch? The stats were pretty bad and terrans were told to wait as well. How many months has it been? Look, I am glad queens and overseers got buffed so zergs did just die to random allies since they had poor scouting and no map control. It has helped to stabilize the early game. Terrans just want a late game option. We don't want all terrans to play where they NEED to kill tons of drones with hellions or do tons of damage with drops. Sure, that should be one of the option with its own risks and rewards. But there should be other options. Right now, it just doesn't seem to be happening in most games. I couldn't find the TLPD winrates thread for September and October but here's the August one. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368146From that, you can see that it hasn't been unbearably rough for terrans. And the graph takes international winrates into consideration as well where foreign terrans supposedly lose left and right. I'm not against terran getting a buff or anything. All I'm saying is that if a buff is called for, it will be given. Or perhaps everyone would have already moved over to HoTS by then lol. Blizzard is painfully slow at fixing anything as we all know by now. It took them quite a long time to even buff zergs if you look back at it. I posted this above as well. But a buff to ravens was coming, being tested even. Then Mvp wins IEM and poof. Why this sudden change? It is like Life winning GSL, MLG with a lot of ling runbys and lings just get nerfed. Or like T-Zain winning a game with thors and thors getting nerfed. Or like Mvp using mass ghost to win some games when he was ahead anyway and ghosts getting nerfed. Wait what. Not sure which game you are referring to but the one I recall which got Ghosts nerfed Nestea was miles ahead (10,000/10,000) on resources and lost to snipe spam whenever he tried to attack despite being way ahead. Not saying he could not have handled that situation better but Ghost's were pretty freaking annoying for Zerg back then even when far ahead it made winning basically impossible. I was thinking of the July and XiGua games on Metalopolis. Yeah, NesTea was ahead on Shakuras but he kinda threw that advantage by repeatedly attacking in PFs and turrets. Shakuras is just a terrible map, much like Metropolis. Iirc, he made like 20+ broodlords which would have been fine vs planetary fortresses and turrets but he neglected corruptor support and got taken out by vikings and a handful of full energy ghosts with pre-patch snipes.
Yeah, but before making the BL he suicided a couple of armies in PFs, he tried to drop but Mvp had turrets etc. The BLs were the last resort.
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On November 06 2012 01:48 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:36 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 01:29 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 01:23 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 01:10 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:57 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:48 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:43 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:35 DigitalDevil wrote:
[quote]
And how do you propose balancing without win/loss statistics? If you want to talk about game design, there are plenty of things wrong with sc2, for EVERY race. If you've been around since the beginning of sc2, then you would have tasted all of the different tears by now. Strategies shift, deal with it.If win/loss statistics justify it, balance will be made. Check out TvZ in Korean for Oct. This number is not going to stay the same though. You are looking at an extraordinarily small sample size (you linked to like 14 games played earlier from GSL, really?). I didn't link anything...there are a lot more than 14 TvZ games in Korea in October. No, it is not a huge sample size, it never is when you look at Korean offline tournaments. But when terrans used International results, we are told foreigner terrans have always been weak and we need to balance for the tip top. Kinda of convenient how that works out. Now, even the tip top results are bad for terrans, it is the sample size is not big enough... When you look at small sample sizes, random spikes tend to happen. If you look at the months before, it's a farcry. Wait another month or two and see if it even remains anywhere near the same. Remember when zergs was overrunning GSTL after the patch? The stats were pretty bad and terrans were told to wait as well. How many months has it been? Look, I am glad queens and overseers got buffed so zergs did just die to random allies since they had poor scouting and no map control. It has helped to stabilize the early game. Terrans just want a late game option. We don't want all terrans to play where they NEED to kill tons of drones with hellions or do tons of damage with drops. Sure, that should be one of the option with its own risks and rewards. But there should be other options. Right now, it just doesn't seem to be happening in most games. I couldn't find the TLPD winrates thread for September and October but here's the August one. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368146From that, you can see that it hasn't been unbearably rough for terrans. And the graph takes international winrates into consideration as well where foreign terrans supposedly lose left and right. I'm not against terran getting a buff or anything. All I'm saying is that if a buff is called for, it will be given. Or perhaps everyone would have already moved over to HoTS by then lol. Blizzard is painfully slow at fixing anything as we all know by now. It took them quite a long time to even buff zergs if you look back at it. I posted this above as well. But a buff to ravens was coming, being tested even. Then Mvp wins IEM and poof. Why this sudden change? It is like Life winning GSL, MLG with a lot of ling runbys and lings just get nerfed. Whatever it was, I doubt it's due to Mvp winning. Blizzard makes weird decisions all the time without an explanation half the time. I don't have the exact link but it was pretty obvious. The reason was given right after IEM. The reason said something like 'we have been seeing greater raven (non buff) usage in professional tournaments with great success. So we have decide to hold off the raven changes and observe this situation more.
Regardless of whether the raven needed a buff or not at the time, what they are saying is that they didn't see the raven used enough. They merely wanted to see the raven used more and buffing it draws attention to it. They did not necessarily feel the raven was weak, but underused. Therefore, from their point of view, they didn't need to do anything. Whether the ravens were actually being used as they claimed is subject to review.
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On November 06 2012 01:36 Maloreon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:35 Zane wrote:On November 06 2012 01:29 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 01:23 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 01:10 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:57 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:48 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:43 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:35 DigitalDevil wrote:
[quote]
And how do you propose balancing without win/loss statistics? If you want to talk about game design, there are plenty of things wrong with sc2, for EVERY race. If you've been around since the beginning of sc2, then you would have tasted all of the different tears by now. Strategies shift, deal with it.If win/loss statistics justify it, balance will be made. Check out TvZ in Korean for Oct. This number is not going to stay the same though. You are looking at an extraordinarily small sample size (you linked to like 14 games played earlier from GSL, really?). I didn't link anything...there are a lot more than 14 TvZ games in Korea in October. No, it is not a huge sample size, it never is when you look at Korean offline tournaments. But when terrans used International results, we are told foreigner terrans have always been weak and we need to balance for the tip top. Kinda of convenient how that works out. Now, even the tip top results are bad for terrans, it is the sample size is not big enough... When you look at small sample sizes, random spikes tend to happen. If you look at the months before, it's a farcry. Wait another month or two and see if it even remains anywhere near the same. Remember when zergs was overrunning GSTL after the patch? The stats were pretty bad and terrans were told to wait as well. How many months has it been? Look, I am glad queens and overseers got buffed so zergs did just die to random allies since they had poor scouting and no map control. It has helped to stabilize the early game. Terrans just want a late game option. We don't want all terrans to play where they NEED to kill tons of drones with hellions or do tons of damage with drops. Sure, that should be one of the option with its own risks and rewards. But there should be other options. Right now, it just doesn't seem to be happening in most games. I couldn't find the TLPD winrates thread for September and October but here's the August one. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368146From that, you can see that it hasn't been unbearably rough for terrans. And the graph takes international winrates into consideration as well where foreign terrans supposedly lose left and right. I'm not against terran getting a buff or anything. All I'm saying is that if a buff is called for, it will be given. Or perhaps everyone would have already moved over to HoTS by then lol. Blizzard is painfully slow at fixing anything as we all know by now. It took them quite a long time to even buff zergs if you look back at it. I posted this above as well. But a buff to ravens was coming, being tested even. Then Mvp wins IEM and poof. Why this sudden change? It is like Life winning GSL, MLG with a lot of ling runbys and lings just get nerfed. Or like T-Zain winning a game with thors and thors getting nerfed. Or like Mvp using mass ghost to win some games when he was ahead anyway and ghosts getting nerfed. Wait what. Not sure which game you are referring to but the one I recall which got Ghosts nerfed Nestea was miles ahead (10,000/10,000) on resources and lost to snipe spam whenever he tried to attack despite being way ahead. Not saying he could not have handled that situation better but Ghost's were pretty freaking annoying for Zerg back then even when far ahead it made winning basically impossible.
Yeah, it looked pretty ridiculous. But is it any more so than Zerg losing all his bases but just walks around with a few spines with his deathball? And if he keeps his army spread, there is no way for P to engage? Or a late game situation where the P has better mining but has carriers which just get their interceptors fungaled and runs out of money? I understand the super late game is hard to balance since it just doesn't occur that often. But the ghosts nerf were mainly for the super late game as well.
And I never understood Blizzard's reasoning. They said ghosts were good vs both T3 options for Zerg. So why not nerf it for one of the options (either Ultra OR broodlords) instead of both. It think it would be interesting dynamic. Terrans can fight the BL/infestor comp. with Thor, Vikings and a few ghosts for EMP. And if the tech switch comes after the trade, those few ghosts can hold off the first few Ultras while the Terran goes to make marauders.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On November 06 2012 02:01 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:36 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 01:35 Zane wrote:On November 06 2012 01:29 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 01:23 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 01:10 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:57 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:48 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:43 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 vthree wrote:
[quote]
Check out TvZ in Korean for Oct. This number is not going to stay the same though. You are looking at an extraordinarily small sample size (you linked to like 14 games played earlier from GSL, really?). I didn't link anything...there are a lot more than 14 TvZ games in Korea in October. No, it is not a huge sample size, it never is when you look at Korean offline tournaments. But when terrans used International results, we are told foreigner terrans have always been weak and we need to balance for the tip top. Kinda of convenient how that works out. Now, even the tip top results are bad for terrans, it is the sample size is not big enough... When you look at small sample sizes, random spikes tend to happen. If you look at the months before, it's a farcry. Wait another month or two and see if it even remains anywhere near the same. Remember when zergs was overrunning GSTL after the patch? The stats were pretty bad and terrans were told to wait as well. How many months has it been? Look, I am glad queens and overseers got buffed so zergs did just die to random allies since they had poor scouting and no map control. It has helped to stabilize the early game. Terrans just want a late game option. We don't want all terrans to play where they NEED to kill tons of drones with hellions or do tons of damage with drops. Sure, that should be one of the option with its own risks and rewards. But there should be other options. Right now, it just doesn't seem to be happening in most games. I couldn't find the TLPD winrates thread for September and October but here's the August one. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368146From that, you can see that it hasn't been unbearably rough for terrans. And the graph takes international winrates into consideration as well where foreign terrans supposedly lose left and right. I'm not against terran getting a buff or anything. All I'm saying is that if a buff is called for, it will be given. Or perhaps everyone would have already moved over to HoTS by then lol. Blizzard is painfully slow at fixing anything as we all know by now. It took them quite a long time to even buff zergs if you look back at it. I posted this above as well. But a buff to ravens was coming, being tested even. Then Mvp wins IEM and poof. Why this sudden change? It is like Life winning GSL, MLG with a lot of ling runbys and lings just get nerfed. Or like T-Zain winning a game with thors and thors getting nerfed. Or like Mvp using mass ghost to win some games when he was ahead anyway and ghosts getting nerfed. Wait what. Not sure which game you are referring to but the one I recall which got Ghosts nerfed Nestea was miles ahead (10,000/10,000) on resources and lost to snipe spam whenever he tried to attack despite being way ahead. Not saying he could not have handled that situation better but Ghost's were pretty freaking annoying for Zerg back then even when far ahead it made winning basically impossible. Yeah, it looked pretty ridiculous. But is it any more so than Zerg losing all his bases but just walks around with a few spines with his deathball? And if he keeps his army spread, there is no way for P to engage? Or a late game situation where the P has better mining but has carriers which just get their interceptors fungaled and runs out of money? I understand the super late game is hard to balance since it just doesn't occur that often. But the ghosts nerf were mainly for the super late game as well. And I never understood Blizzard's reasoning. They said ghosts were good vs both T3 options for Zerg. So why not nerf it for one of the options (either Ultra OR broodlords) instead of both. It think it would be interesting dynamic. Terrans can fight the BL/infestor comp. with Thor, Vikings and a few ghosts for EMP. And if the tech switch comes after the trade, those few ghosts can hold off the first few Ultras while the Terran goes to make marauders.
I play Zerg and think late game Zerg armies are ridiculous. And boring. Bros need to stop putting their own race first and realize how much they suck at the game and actually think about things properly.
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On November 06 2012 01:56 DigitalDevil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:48 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 01:36 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 01:29 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 01:23 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 01:10 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:57 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:48 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:43 Maloreon wrote:On November 06 2012 00:37 vthree wrote:
[quote]
Check out TvZ in Korean for Oct. This number is not going to stay the same though. You are looking at an extraordinarily small sample size (you linked to like 14 games played earlier from GSL, really?). I didn't link anything...there are a lot more than 14 TvZ games in Korea in October. No, it is not a huge sample size, it never is when you look at Korean offline tournaments. But when terrans used International results, we are told foreigner terrans have always been weak and we need to balance for the tip top. Kinda of convenient how that works out. Now, even the tip top results are bad for terrans, it is the sample size is not big enough... When you look at small sample sizes, random spikes tend to happen. If you look at the months before, it's a farcry. Wait another month or two and see if it even remains anywhere near the same. Remember when zergs was overrunning GSTL after the patch? The stats were pretty bad and terrans were told to wait as well. How many months has it been? Look, I am glad queens and overseers got buffed so zergs did just die to random allies since they had poor scouting and no map control. It has helped to stabilize the early game. Terrans just want a late game option. We don't want all terrans to play where they NEED to kill tons of drones with hellions or do tons of damage with drops. Sure, that should be one of the option with its own risks and rewards. But there should be other options. Right now, it just doesn't seem to be happening in most games. I couldn't find the TLPD winrates thread for September and October but here's the August one. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368146From that, you can see that it hasn't been unbearably rough for terrans. And the graph takes international winrates into consideration as well where foreign terrans supposedly lose left and right. I'm not against terran getting a buff or anything. All I'm saying is that if a buff is called for, it will be given. Or perhaps everyone would have already moved over to HoTS by then lol. Blizzard is painfully slow at fixing anything as we all know by now. It took them quite a long time to even buff zergs if you look back at it. I posted this above as well. But a buff to ravens was coming, being tested even. Then Mvp wins IEM and poof. Why this sudden change? It is like Life winning GSL, MLG with a lot of ling runbys and lings just get nerfed. Whatever it was, I doubt it's due to Mvp winning. Blizzard makes weird decisions all the time without an explanation half the time. I don't have the exact link but it was pretty obvious. The reason was given right after IEM. The reason said something like 'we have been seeing greater raven (non buff) usage in professional tournaments with great success. So we have decide to hold off the raven changes and observe this situation more. Regardless of whether the raven needed a buff or not at the time, what they are saying is that they didn't see the raven used enough. They merely wanted to see the raven used more and buffing it draws attention to it. They did not necessarily feel the raven was weak, but underused. Therefore, from their point of view, they didn't need to do anything. Whether the ravens were actually being used as they claimed is subject to review.
So ravens were underused. But once Mvp uses it a few times on certain maps, then it is not 'unused' anymore? Is there really more raven usage now as compare to pre IEM?
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On November 06 2012 02:05 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:56 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 01:48 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 01:36 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 01:29 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 01:23 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 01:10 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:57 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:48 vthree wrote:On November 06 2012 00:43 Maloreon wrote:
[quote]
This number is not going to stay the same though. You are looking at an extraordinarily small sample size (you linked to like 14 games played earlier from GSL, really?). I didn't link anything...there are a lot more than 14 TvZ games in Korea in October. No, it is not a huge sample size, it never is when you look at Korean offline tournaments. But when terrans used International results, we are told foreigner terrans have always been weak and we need to balance for the tip top. Kinda of convenient how that works out. Now, even the tip top results are bad for terrans, it is the sample size is not big enough... When you look at small sample sizes, random spikes tend to happen. If you look at the months before, it's a farcry. Wait another month or two and see if it even remains anywhere near the same. Remember when zergs was overrunning GSTL after the patch? The stats were pretty bad and terrans were told to wait as well. How many months has it been? Look, I am glad queens and overseers got buffed so zergs did just die to random allies since they had poor scouting and no map control. It has helped to stabilize the early game. Terrans just want a late game option. We don't want all terrans to play where they NEED to kill tons of drones with hellions or do tons of damage with drops. Sure, that should be one of the option with its own risks and rewards. But there should be other options. Right now, it just doesn't seem to be happening in most games. I couldn't find the TLPD winrates thread for September and October but here's the August one. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368146From that, you can see that it hasn't been unbearably rough for terrans. And the graph takes international winrates into consideration as well where foreign terrans supposedly lose left and right. I'm not against terran getting a buff or anything. All I'm saying is that if a buff is called for, it will be given. Or perhaps everyone would have already moved over to HoTS by then lol. Blizzard is painfully slow at fixing anything as we all know by now. It took them quite a long time to even buff zergs if you look back at it. I posted this above as well. But a buff to ravens was coming, being tested even. Then Mvp wins IEM and poof. Why this sudden change? It is like Life winning GSL, MLG with a lot of ling runbys and lings just get nerfed. Whatever it was, I doubt it's due to Mvp winning. Blizzard makes weird decisions all the time without an explanation half the time. I don't have the exact link but it was pretty obvious. The reason was given right after IEM. The reason said something like 'we have been seeing greater raven (non buff) usage in professional tournaments with great success. So we have decide to hold off the raven changes and observe this situation more. Regardless of whether the raven needed a buff or not at the time, what they are saying is that they didn't see the raven used enough. They merely wanted to see the raven used more and buffing it draws attention to it. They did not necessarily feel the raven was weak, but underused. Therefore, from their point of view, they didn't need to do anything. Whether the ravens were actually being used as they claimed is subject to review. So ravens were underused. But once Mvp uses it a few times on certain maps, then it is not 'unused' anymore? Is there really more raven usage now as compare to pre IEM?
Did I say ravens were not underused? I merely explained their rationale and how it didn't have to do with balance. How they decided that ravens were seeing use and whether they were right or wrong to claim so is none of my concern.
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On November 05 2012 06:25 red4ce wrote:
When I first saw the Ro32 groups for this GSL there were 2 players I had a feeling would be upset, Taeja and MVP. Semifinals curse ensured the former. Will the group of death cause the latter?
*sigh* poor terrans
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I'm a terran fan, since Flash and Boxer. I think they need to re-implement the use of the banshee, hellions (power up the blue flame), reapers. I don't like seeing MVP being dropped like this. I'm also an MMA fan.. and some buffing of the the weaker terran units would be nice to see.
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mvp =( our savior, guess no terran finalist this season. zvz finals just like mlg?
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haha so many painful memories being erased by the sweet taste of green fungus
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On November 06 2012 01:56 DigitalDevil wrote:
Regardless of whether the raven needed a buff or not at the time, what they are saying is that they didn't see the raven used enough. They merely wanted to see the raven used more and buffing it draws attention to it. They did not necessarily feel the raven was weak, but underused. Therefore, from their point of view, they didn't need to do anything. Whether the ravens were actually being used as they claimed is subject to review.
If a unit terribly suck, it tends to be underused.. look how once fearsome reapers where pushed into oblivion.
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Maruaders, marines and Tanks are arguably the most useful and cost efficient units for Terrans.
for 1 Thor with 30 AttackP ground 6 AP in air, cost 300 M 200 G, 400 HP
You can get 6 marines without 200 gas.. and get
30 AP combined focus fire
300 Min cost
0 Gas
300 HitP
and the Marine is more mobile than the Thor like a ratio of 3-1
This is without a tech lab, reactor and armory. and without any marine upgrades
That is why the thor is so innefficient. they need to buff the thor.
i guess i can go on an one about this.. this is about the GSL so i'll shut up.
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EPT
