On November 06 2012 01:56 DigitalDevil wrote: Regardless of whether the raven needed a buff or not at the time, what they are saying is that they didn't see the raven used enough. They merely wanted to see the raven used more and buffing it draws attention to it. They did not necessarily feel the raven was weak, but underused. Therefore, from their point of view, they didn't need to do anything. Whether the ravens were actually being used as they claimed is subject to review.
If a unit terribly suck, it tends to be underused.. look how once fearsome reapers where pushed into oblivion.
That's generally true for the obvious cases but of course not fact. Infestors were once underused. Warp prisms were underused but not because without an hp buff they were underpowered. Metagames shift. Players learn from other players. Specialized uses for niche units crop up on the rare occasions and then it becomes all mainstream. Ravens certainly have more utility than reapers so their situations aren't comparable. If anything, the situation with ravens are still a bit questionable. It would be quite funny if some well known terran started getting cute with ravens and then every other terran starts doing the same.
On November 06 2012 01:56 DigitalDevil wrote: Regardless of whether the raven needed a buff or not at the time, what they are saying is that they didn't see the raven used enough. They merely wanted to see the raven used more and buffing it draws attention to it. They did not necessarily feel the raven was weak, but underused. Therefore, from their point of view, they didn't need to do anything. Whether the ravens were actually being used as they claimed is subject to review.
If a unit terribly suck, it tends to be underused.. look how once fearsome reapers where pushed into oblivion.
That's generally true for the obvious cases but of course not fact. Infestors were once underused. Warp prisms were underused but not because without an hp buff they were underpowered. Metagames shift. Players learn from other players. Specialized uses for niche units crop up on the rare occasions and then it becomes all mainstream. Ravens certainly have more utility than reapers so their situations aren't comparable. If anything, the situation with ravens are still a bit questionable. It would be quite funny if some well known terran started getting cute with ravens and then every other terran starts doing the same.
Well, Ravens are a decent unit for TErran, but their mobility isn't great and they HP is also pretty weak. Their capabilities in terms of the Seeker Missile and detect are useful abilities. Their cost is pretty reasonable considering the amount of technology inside the raven.
it's 100 M 200 G... seeker missile, auto turret, and detect would explain for the 200 G, but speed is not up to par compared to Hellions and zerglings.
I would increase the HP to 150-160. The mineral cost should be more prohibitive to like 140-150. The Gas cost should be lowered to maybe 175
As for the reapers, yes they are now a weak unit, they should not have been nerfed so severely. Either they should increase the unit time for Reapers, increase their AP, or increase their speed.
On November 06 2012 00:29 Dodgin wrote: The problem is you guys are looking at the numbers to justify either whining or defending about something being OP, you should be looking at the game itself and not just " x terrans are in GSL, x terrans are in WCS worlds "
I can't believe that someone with 16000+ posts would actually post this. Clearly you need to balance around objective facts rather than your subjective impressions. Perhaps what you mean to say is that the game, despite generally being balanced at the highest levels as determined by the representation of Terrans in GSL, etc., the game doesn't seem to be as interesting as it could be because Terrans tend to lose too often if the game goes beyond XX minutes. Then you can look at the numbers to see whether, e.g., the late game needs to be balanced. I think it would be silly to design the game where one race is heavily favored if the game goes past 20 minutes.
For the sheer sake of variety, I want to see Terran late game units buffed because it's very rare that you see, e.g., ghosts in tvz or ravens or BCs. I would love to see those units slightly buffed (e.g., HSM = 100 energy) just so that more people use them and the matchup will feel fresher.
A large number of Ravens is probably not worthwhile outside of a 'both players maxed for a while' circumstance. They're easy to unlock, but slow to build (compared to the other races' casters, which are limited only by your gas, and compared to ghosts, who build faster from a cheaper structure). PDD is powerful, but the units it blocks are rarely the ones you're afraid of in TvZ or TvP. Autoturrets are big, durable, and last a long time, but their damage is lackluster and they don't receive upgrades. HSM has short range and you can't save up two charges.
I'm continually baffled that Terran don't use one or two for permanent mobile detection, but a pile of ravens is only cost-effective in the very late game.
On November 06 2012 05:02 StickyIcky wrote: So broodwar was "silly" because of terran death balls?
I don't know what the context is, but BW Terran 'death balls' relied upon sieged tanks, and to a lesser degree spider mines and missile turrets. They were very scary, but also quite immobile, and occupied a lot of space.
Phew, glad that Creator got through. With HerO falling and Rain forfeiting, I was worried about Toss prospects this season especially if Creator fell too.
roRo, soo, soulkey are some zergs that have looked good at times.
Im curious to see how good sOs is tomorrow.
Even Flash himself has had his times were he hasnt looked very hot (he lost in Code A to MiNi who then went to play up and downs and lose a PvT with some of the worst control ive seen in the GSL all year)
On November 06 2012 00:29 Dodgin wrote: The problem is you guys are looking at the numbers to justify either whining or defending about something being OP, you should be looking at the game itself and not just " x terrans are in GSL, x terrans are in WCS worlds "
And how do you propose balancing without win/loss statistics? If you want to talk about game design, there are plenty of things wrong with sc2, for EVERY race. If you've been around since the beginning of sc2, then you would have tasted all of the different tears by now. Strategies shift, deal with it.If win/loss statistics justify it, balance will be made.
Check out TvZ in Korean for Oct.
This number is not going to stay the same though. You are looking at an extraordinarily small sample size (you linked to like 14 games played earlier from GSL, really?).
I didn't link anything...there are a lot more than 14 TvZ games in Korea in October. No, it is not a huge sample size, it never is when you look at Korean offline tournaments. But when terrans used International results, we are told foreigner terrans have always been weak and we need to balance for the tip top. Kinda of convenient how that works out. Now, even the tip top results are bad for terrans, it is the sample size is not big enough...
That argument was the same when Fruitdealer won GSL. Balancing isn't as simple as that.
EPT
