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On November 05 2012 23:08 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 23:06 Melliflue wrote:
I don't understand why so many people think Terran can't win anything outside of Mvp. Taeja won many several tournaments earlier this year. The MLG did have a ZvZ final but both losing semi-finalists were Terran (Bomber and Flash), and half of the top 8 were Terran (with Heart and Taeja).
Looking at the foreign scene, the ASUS ROG Gd Invitational was won by Thorzain, and the highest placed foreigner in the MvP was Major.
I think Terrans are doing fine. That are only a couple of tournaments. Have you seen WCS KR or EU qualifiers? Do you watch any weekly tournaments? GO4SC2? Zotec Cup? Terrans are not doing fine. Why do you think there are tournaments like "Stim for the win" where lots of terrans are invited?
There were a lot of strong Protoss in WCS KR but not many stop tier Terrans. Also, Mvp lost his first match against Polt and then forfeited to play in IEM Cologne (which he won).
The WCS EU final finished Stephano, Vortix, then Lucifron in third. The highest Protoss was fifth.
And no, I don't watch weekly tournaments.
On November 05 2012 23:22 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 23:06 Melliflue wrote:
I don't understand why so many people think Terran can't win anything outside of Mvp. Taeja won many several tournaments earlier this year. The MLG did have a ZvZ final but both losing semi-finalists were Terran (Bomber and Flash), and half of the top 8 were Terran (with Heart and Taeja).
Looking at the foreign scene, the ASUS ROG Gd Invitational was won by Thorzain, and the highest placed foreigner in the MvP was Major.
I think Terrans are doing fine. I think ppl are reacting to how the games look, not just stats. World class terrans like Taeja, Flash, MVP look like they get destroyed by top their world class zerg opponents. Games arent close at al. Taeja had a few early gg's in MLG against Life i think it was, and it was clear he was very frustrated with the situation.
I would agree that Zergs are strong at the moment (not that I am saying they're imbalanced, just that the way the metagame is favours Zerg), but I don't see why this means Terrans should get buffed, because that would also affect TvP and I don't think Protoss are dominating over Terran.
Also, after Taeja lost to Life in the GSL semi-final I can imagine he doesn't like playing against Life and would be frustrated by repeatedly losing to him. It might not have anything to do with Zerg in general, just Life specifically. Taeja's games against Zergs who weren't life went 2-1 over Revival, 2-0 over Violet, and 2-0 over Soulkey. Going 6-1 against the other Zergs makes me think he doesn't have a problem with the match-up in general.
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On November 06 2012 00:04 DigitalDevil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 23:47 Kitaen wrote:ppl are ranting about terran's weakness because terran must not do any error in their game at, while zerg and protoss can take worker harass and/or lose engagements and still be in a somehow winable position best example at this MLG: rain loses 8 (eight!) colossi to taeja vikings (because he randomly lost 10 stalkers) and just rolls over him with mass zealot/archon imagine a terran losing 8 tanks before an actual engagment happens; good luck  ) or when (i think demuslim was it) killed 150 workers in a mech tvz vs stephano at WCS europe; ppl start to wonder if somebody deserves a win while not beeing able to shutdown major errors/harass like this terran is a strong races when your gameplan and execution works to perfection, but this has not to be the case for protoss and especially not zerg It's pretty easy to selectively choose only the cases where the terran lost and cry about it. For the longest time, the other two races were complaining about how terran had the most forgivable economic mechanics, had the best chances for making miracle comebacks, had the best turtling capabilities, had the best harass capabilities, and the strongest all ins. It's not even that unbalanced right now and yet there continues to be sore losers up in arms. The game changes at such a fast rate and people are so quick to jump on the OP bandwagon.
And that was way, way back when people didn't know that broodlords or infestors were good. Besides, zergs and protosses got to cry their asses out, but terran can't when every other race can beat them down?
EDIT:
@Melliflue: the lack of terran is his point. He said qualifiers, not the actual tournament-hardly any terrans made it through the qualifiers, but a ton of p/z made it through...
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On November 06 2012 00:09 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:04 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 05 2012 23:47 Kitaen wrote:ppl are ranting about terran's weakness because terran must not do any error in their game at, while zerg and protoss can take worker harass and/or lose engagements and still be in a somehow winable position best example at this MLG: rain loses 8 (eight!) colossi to taeja vikings (because he randomly lost 10 stalkers) and just rolls over him with mass zealot/archon imagine a terran losing 8 tanks before an actual engagment happens; good luck ) or when (i think demuslim was it) killed 150 workers in a mech tvz vs stephano at WCS europe; ppl start to wonder if somebody deserves a win while not beeing able to shutdown major errors/harass like this terran is a strong races when your gameplan and execution works to perfection, but this has not to be the case for protoss and especially not zerg It's pretty easy to selectively choose only the cases where the terran lost and cry about it. For the longest time, the other two races were complaining about how terran had the most forgivable economic mechanics, had the best chances for making miracle comebacks, had the best turtling capabilities, had the best harass capabilities, and the strongest all ins. It's not even that unbalanced right now and yet there continues to be sore losers up in arms. The game changes at such a fast rate and people are so quick to jump on the OP bandwagon. What miracle comebacks? Seriously?
Have you not been watching since the beginning of SC2? It's only in the past year that terrans have really been complaining while the other races struggled to even be represented.
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On November 05 2012 23:27 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 23:22 Noispaxen wrote:
It's like terrans literally can't take ANY loses at all. Mvp lost today to DRG, he is arguably the best zerg in the world, and all I saw in the chat was "LOLOLOL, SO OP ZERG, EZ"... If it's so easy then why 99,9% of the zergs in the world would get owned badly by mvp anyways? Sure Mvp is THE terran out there, but also DRG is THE zerg, whining about balance cause one of those loses a bo3 to the other is just retarded. The problem is DRG is nowhere close to being that good. Leenock, Life and the likes are way better atm. Rain manhandled DRG in the OSL finals. DRG is absolutely not THE zerg right now.
Life and Leenock may be better but every single pro knows that DRG's mechanics and general gameplay are better than just about every other pro. DRG is still certainly top 10 minimum probably top 5.
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Suprised Creator won over MVP o.o
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On November 06 2012 00:11 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:04 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 05 2012 23:47 Kitaen wrote:ppl are ranting about terran's weakness because terran must not do any error in their game at, while zerg and protoss can take worker harass and/or lose engagements and still be in a somehow winable position best example at this MLG: rain loses 8 (eight!) colossi to taeja vikings (because he randomly lost 10 stalkers) and just rolls over him with mass zealot/archon imagine a terran losing 8 tanks before an actual engagment happens; good luck ) or when (i think demuslim was it) killed 150 workers in a mech tvz vs stephano at WCS europe; ppl start to wonder if somebody deserves a win while not beeing able to shutdown major errors/harass like this terran is a strong races when your gameplan and execution works to perfection, but this has not to be the case for protoss and especially not zerg It's pretty easy to selectively choose only the cases where the terran lost and cry about it. For the longest time, the other two races were complaining about how terran had the most forgivable economic mechanics, had the best chances for making miracle comebacks, had the best turtling capabilities, had the best harass capabilities, and the strongest all ins. It's not even that unbalanced right now and yet there continues to be sore losers up in arms. The game changes at such a fast rate and people are so quick to jump on the OP bandwagon. And that was way, way back when people didn't know that broodlords or infestors were good. Besides, zergs and protosses got to cry their asses out, but terran can't when every other race can beat them down?
And it wasn't that long ago that zergs were complaining about how vortex was OP even WHEN they were already using broodlords and infestors. They didn't discover it recently. It's more like players have adapted and gotten better. The people whining about the latest "OP fad" end up looking completely silly as soon as the next fad hits. Also, terrans can cry if they want but it's pretty damn ironic seeing as they're not even suffering much right now other than not having over 50% representation in the tournaments that matter.
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why the hell so much whine?
Latest tournament win % by race, and race distribution on top8 seems legit, yet all you see is whining.
GSL season3 was won by MVP (T) GSL season 4 by Life (Z) and OSL by Rain (P).
The distribution in this MLG top 8/16 was legit.
Old patchterrans tears? wtf? Do you forget how it was 1 year ago? GomTvTvTvT? Even jakjii won a GSL back then ffs...
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The problem is you guys are looking at the numbers to justify either whining or defending about something being OP, you should be looking at the game itself and not just " x terrans are in GSL, x terrans are in WCS worlds "
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On November 05 2012 23:06 Melliflue wrote:
I don't understand why so many people think Terran can't win anything outside of Mvp. Taeja won many several tournaments earlier this year. The MLG did have a ZvZ final but both losing semi-finalists were Terran (Bomber and Flash), and half of the top 8 were Terran (with Heart and Taeja).
Looking at the foreign scene, the ASUS ROG Gd Invitational was won by Thorzain, and the highest placed foreigner in the MvP was Major.
I think Terrans are doing fine.
Hey man please don't use facts around here. Mvp is out so Terran has no hope
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On November 05 2012 23:47 Kitaen wrote:ppl are ranting about terran's weakness because terran must not do any error in their game at, while zerg and protoss can take worker harass and/or lose engagements and still be in a somehow winable position best example at this MLG: rain loses 8 (eight!) colossi to taeja vikings (because he randomly lost 10 stalkers) and just rolls over him with mass zealot/archon imagine a terran losing 8 tanks before an actual engagment happens; good luck ) or when (i think demuslim was it) killed 150 workers in a mech tvz vs stephano at WCS europe; ppl start to wonder if somebody deserves a win while not beeing able to shutdown major errors/harass like this terran is a strong races when your gameplan and execution works to perfection, but this has not to be the case for protoss and especially not zerg
TvP lategame is NOT Protoss favored. Taeja lost 16 ghosts when that fight began. SIXTEEN! 3200-1600, much more expensive than the 7 colossi Rain lost. And rain still got storms off. The real imbalance is that taeja still almost won that engagement after losing all that.
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On November 06 2012 00:18 DigitalDevil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:11 GTPGlitch wrote:On November 06 2012 00:04 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 05 2012 23:47 Kitaen wrote:ppl are ranting about terran's weakness because terran must not do any error in their game at, while zerg and protoss can take worker harass and/or lose engagements and still be in a somehow winable position best example at this MLG: rain loses 8 (eight!) colossi to taeja vikings (because he randomly lost 10 stalkers) and just rolls over him with mass zealot/archon imagine a terran losing 8 tanks before an actual engagment happens; good luck ) or when (i think demuslim was it) killed 150 workers in a mech tvz vs stephano at WCS europe; ppl start to wonder if somebody deserves a win while not beeing able to shutdown major errors/harass like this terran is a strong races when your gameplan and execution works to perfection, but this has not to be the case for protoss and especially not zerg It's pretty easy to selectively choose only the cases where the terran lost and cry about it. For the longest time, the other two races were complaining about how terran had the most forgivable economic mechanics, had the best chances for making miracle comebacks, had the best turtling capabilities, had the best harass capabilities, and the strongest all ins. It's not even that unbalanced right now and yet there continues to be sore losers up in arms. The game changes at such a fast rate and people are so quick to jump on the OP bandwagon. And that was way, way back when people didn't know that broodlords or infestors were good. Besides, zergs and protosses got to cry their asses out, but terran can't when every other race can beat them down? And it wasn't that long ago that zergs were complaining about how vortex was OP even WHEN they were already using broodlords and infestors. They didn't discover it recently. It's more like players have adapted and gotten better. The people whining about the latest "OP fad" end up looking completely silly as soon as the next fad hits. Also, terrans can cry if they want but it's pretty damn ironic seeing as they're not even suffering much right now other than not having over 50% representation in the tournaments that matter.
Yes, yes, we all know zergs whine every time they have any trouble at all winning. Then they realized that they had to do a basic skill that terrans have had to use vs banelings since the beginning of time and everything worked out, because blord/infestor is a ridiculously good combo.
What's terrans deathball again? Ravens that need to hit HSM, which can be stopped dead by fungals? Woooo~~~~
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On November 06 2012 00:29 Dodgin wrote:
The problem is you guys are looking at the numbers to justify either whining or defending about something being OP, you should be looking at the game itself and not just " x terrans are in GSL, x terrans are in WCS worlds "
And how do you propose balancing without win/loss statistics? If you want to talk about game design, there are plenty of things wrong with sc2, for EVERY race. If you've been around since the beginning of sc2, then you would have tasted all of the different tears by now. Strategies shift, deal with it.If win/loss statistics justify it, balance will be made.
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On November 06 2012 00:32 TommyP wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 23:06 Melliflue wrote:
I don't understand why so many people think Terran can't win anything outside of Mvp. Taeja won many several tournaments earlier this year. The MLG did have a ZvZ final but both losing semi-finalists were Terran (Bomber and Flash), and half of the top 8 were Terran (with Heart and Taeja).
Looking at the foreign scene, the ASUS ROG Gd Invitational was won by Thorzain, and the highest placed foreigner in the MvP was Major.
I think Terrans are doing fine. Hey man please don't use facts around here. Mvp is out so Terran has no hope
Well to be fair Mvp is the only Terran player to make a GSL final this year so it's not completely unfair to say Terran has no hope of winning now that he's out.
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On November 06 2012 00:20 MyNameIsAlex wrote:
why the hell so much whine?
Latest tournament win % by race, and race distribution on top8 seems legit, yet all you see is whining.
GSL season3 was won by MVP (T) GSL season 4 by Life (Z) and OSL by Rain (P).
The distribution in this MLG top 8/16 was legit.
Old patchterrans tears? wtf? Do you forget how it was 1 year ago? GomTvTvTvT? Even jakjii won a GSL back then ffs...
Have you checked the TvZ win rate in Korea for Oct? It is something like 36%. You know why people whine? Because Blizzard will buff based on them. 1-1-1 whine. ---> immortal buff. Ghost whine --> ghost nerf. Hellions stopping creep so zergs dying to a lot of early pushes ---> Queen and overlord buff.
And it is not just anti Terran, stuff like amulet, 1 supply roaches also got nerfed. But since Terrans did so well in 2nd half of 2011 and beginning of 2012, they have been receiving the majority of the nerfs and no buffs to compensate. Now that almost all the early mid game pushes can be defended with good play. Terrans need a late game option.
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On November 06 2012 00:35 DigitalDevil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:29 Dodgin wrote:
The problem is you guys are looking at the numbers to justify either whining or defending about something being OP, you should be looking at the game itself and not just " x terrans are in GSL, x terrans are in WCS worlds " And how do you propose balancing without win/loss statistics? If you want to talk about game design, there are plenty of things wrong with sc2, for EVERY race. If you've been around since the beginning of sc2, then you would have tasted all of the different tears by now. Strategies shift, deal with it.If win/loss statistics justify it, balance will be made.
Check out TvZ in Korean for Oct.
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On November 06 2012 00:35 DigitalDevil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:29 Dodgin wrote:
The problem is you guys are looking at the numbers to justify either whining or defending about something being OP, you should be looking at the game itself and not just " x terrans are in GSL, x terrans are in WCS worlds " And how do you propose balancing without win/loss statistics? If you want to talk about game design, there are plenty of things wrong with sc2, for EVERY race. If you've been around since the beginning of sc2, then you would have tasted all of the different tears by now. Strategies shift, deal with it.If win/loss statistics justify it, balance will be made.
The problem is even though winrates may be balanced, for example in PvZ most Protoss wins come from two base all ins and most Zerg wins come from the lategame. What blizzard needs to do is look at how to provide more options for all races to have a good chance to win at all points during the game. Luckily for us that seems to be their goal with HOTS.
It's pretty easy to take a look at the game and see for yourself what is too powerful, It's ridiculous that some people might disagree because " there are majority terrans in code s "
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On November 06 2012 00:35 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:32 TommyP wrote:On November 05 2012 23:06 Melliflue wrote:
I don't understand why so many people think Terran can't win anything outside of Mvp. Taeja won many several tournaments earlier this year. The MLG did have a ZvZ final but both losing semi-finalists were Terran (Bomber and Flash), and half of the top 8 were Terran (with Heart and Taeja).
Looking at the foreign scene, the ASUS ROG Gd Invitational was won by Thorzain, and the highest placed foreigner in the MvP was Major.
I think Terrans are doing fine. Hey man please don't use facts around here. Mvp is out so Terran has no hope Well to be fair Mvp is the only Terran player to make a GSL final this year so it's not completely unfair to say Terran has no hope of winning now that he's out.
Also to be fair. DRG was the only Z to make a final all year and he got eliminated early last season and life won the finals
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On November 06 2012 00:37 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:35 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:29 Dodgin wrote:
The problem is you guys are looking at the numbers to justify either whining or defending about something being OP, you should be looking at the game itself and not just " x terrans are in GSL, x terrans are in WCS worlds " And how do you propose balancing without win/loss statistics? If you want to talk about game design, there are plenty of things wrong with sc2, for EVERY race. If you've been around since the beginning of sc2, then you would have tasted all of the different tears by now. Strategies shift, deal with it.If win/loss statistics justify it, balance will be made. Check out TvZ in Korean for Oct.
This number is not going to stay the same though. You are looking at an extraordinarily small sample size (you linked to like 14 games played earlier from GSL, really?).
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On November 06 2012 00:40 TommyP wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:35 Dodgin wrote:On November 06 2012 00:32 TommyP wrote:On November 05 2012 23:06 Melliflue wrote:
I don't understand why so many people think Terran can't win anything outside of Mvp. Taeja won many several tournaments earlier this year. The MLG did have a ZvZ final but both losing semi-finalists were Terran (Bomber and Flash), and half of the top 8 were Terran (with Heart and Taeja).
Looking at the foreign scene, the ASUS ROG Gd Invitational was won by Thorzain, and the highest placed foreigner in the MvP was Major.
I think Terrans are doing fine. Hey man please don't use facts around here. Mvp is out so Terran has no hope Well to be fair Mvp is the only Terran player to make a GSL final this year so it's not completely unfair to say Terran has no hope of winning now that he's out. Also to be fair. DRG was the only Z to make a final all year and he got eliminated early last season and life won the finals
Yeah, relax. I can easily see MKP or whichever terran is left make the GSL finals.
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On November 06 2012 00:39 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:35 DigitalDevil wrote:On November 06 2012 00:29 Dodgin wrote:
The problem is you guys are looking at the numbers to justify either whining or defending about something being OP, you should be looking at the game itself and not just " x terrans are in GSL, x terrans are in WCS worlds " And how do you propose balancing without win/loss statistics? If you want to talk about game design, there are plenty of things wrong with sc2, for EVERY race. If you've been around since the beginning of sc2, then you would have tasted all of the different tears by now. Strategies shift, deal with it.If win/loss statistics justify it, balance will be made. What blizzard needs to do is look at how to provide more options for all races to have a good chance to win at all points during the game. Luckily for us that seems to be their goal with HOTS.
Is it ? I mean they tweaked the reaper and the hellion for terran while adding an early game mine, meanwhile zerg and protoss got mid-late game new units. If anything, blizzard seems to follow the same path.
Polt and MKP better have a good run in this gsl :[
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EPT
