EPT[OSL] RO16 Group Selection - Page 8
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments |
|
ShiroKaisen
United States1082 Posts
| ||
|
vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
| ||
|
MapleLeafSirup
Germany950 Posts
You will hardly see him play marine/tank against zerg anymore because he is not confident in it, he will always play some mech/bunker or cheese strategies. | ||
|
bokchoi
Korea (South)9498 Posts
On August 21 2012 15:43 MapleLeafSirup wrote: In terms of straightforward standard games, MVP is nowhere near the top anymore. He even lost to slivko when he played standard. That is why he relies on his other strengths: mind games,diversity of strategies, careful preparation. You will hardly see him play marine/tank against zerg anymore because he is not confident in it, he will always play some mech/bunker or cheese strategies. He beat Nerchio going Marine/Tank? Also, you're arguing that because he mixes up his strategies he can't play a standard game? lol. | ||
|
Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On August 21 2012 15:43 MapleLeafSirup wrote: In terms of straightforward standard games, MVP is nowhere near the top anymore. He even lost to slivko when he played standard. That is why he relies on his other strengths: mind games,diversity of strategies, careful preparation. You will hardly see him play marine/tank against zerg anymore because he is not confident in it, he will always play some mech/bunker or cheese strategies. Err did you even watch the games? He went Marine/Tank on Atlantis and Metropolis vs Nerchio in the finals and won both games, dropping one game to Slivko in the quarterfinals doesn't mean anything. Also his new Mech v Z build is amazing, it doesn't have to be standard to be a macro play. | ||
|
ElephantBaby
United States1365 Posts
On August 21 2012 15:43 MapleLeafSirup wrote: In terms of straightforward standard games, MVP is nowhere near the top anymore. He even lost to slivko when he played standard. That is why he relies on his other strengths: mind games,diversity of strategies, careful preparation. You will hardly see him play marine/tank against zerg anymore because he is not confident in it, he will always play some mech/bunker or cheese strategies. He always prefers mech, even in BW. Deep down, he is a turtle terran, not a multitasking terran like MMA or Boxer. Flash is the same way. When they don't feel comfortable or they are behind, they will instinctively go full turtle mech style. That's pretty normal strategy for them. | ||
|
vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On August 21 2012 15:43 MapleLeafSirup wrote: In terms of straightforward standard games, MVP is nowhere near the top anymore. He even lost to slivko when he played standard. That is why he relies on his other strengths: mind games,diversity of strategies, careful preparation. You will hardly see him play marine/tank against zerg anymore because he is not confident in it, he will always play some mech/bunker or cheese strategies. Marine/tank is pretty bad against zerg now due to the amount of creep spread. Even Taeja sometimes just goes pure bio now. It is more a meta game shift then MVP not being able to play it. Sort of like how standard for zerg was muta/ling/bling but is now more ling, infestor to BL/infestor. | ||
|
bittman
Australia8759 Posts
On August 21 2012 15:43 MapleLeafSirup wrote: In terms of straightforward standard games, MVP is nowhere near the top anymore. He even lost to slivko when he played standard. That is why he relies on his other strengths: mind games,diversity of strategies, careful preparation. You will hardly see him play marine/tank against zerg anymore because he is not confident in it, he will always play some mech/bunker or cheese strategies. I don't know what player at the highest level plays 'straightforward standard games' anyway. Such a player doesn't exist. Standard games only get you to a point. Most champions don't play mostly standard games. Some of the people below them do. | ||
|
vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On August 21 2012 15:54 ElephantBaby wrote: He always prefers mech, even in BW. Deep down, he is a turtle terran, not a multitasking terran like MMA or Boxer. Flash is the same way. When they don't feel comfortable or they are behind, they will instinctively go full turtle mech style. That's pretty normal strategy for them. I am not even sure it is a turtle style on some maps. He does A LOT with his hellions and banshees. Of course, with Mech, you are not going to be running all over the map like you do with bio or bio tank. | ||
|
OnFiRe888
United States629 Posts
| ||
|
ElephantBaby
United States1365 Posts
On August 21 2012 15:58 vthree wrote: I am not even sure it is a turtle style on some maps. He does A LOT with his hellions and banshees. Of course, with Mech, you are not going to be running all over the map like you do with bio or bio tank. Choosing mech at the first place is giving them a choice to turtle when things go south. And then they can possibly win in late late game with great decision and starsense. That doesn't mean turtle at the beginning of the match. | ||
|
Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote: I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. It's not wrong to call him cheesy when he cheeses but It's wrong to say he can't play macro because he can and just did at IEM, he also played macro builds in the first 3 games vs Squirtle and won with it, then Squirtle won the next 3, then the last game. | ||
|
vanhio
Niue1017 Posts
| ||
|
vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote: I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. And Blizzard already said that it is by design. Terrans are suppose to be more aggressive early mid game. Cheeses are used to keep your opponent honest, especially in BoX matches. And Squirtle is famous for his 2 base Colo all-in as well, so Squirtle is cheesy as well. Actually, I can't think of a top progamer that hasn't cheesed. So by your definition, all progamers should be called cheesy. | ||
|
OnFiRe888
United States629 Posts
On August 21 2012 16:01 Dodgin wrote: It's not wrong to call him cheesy when he cheeses but It's wrong to say he can't play macro because he can and just did at IEM, he also played macro builds in the first 3 games vs Squirtle and won with it, then Squirtle won the next 3, then the last game. Game on daybreak was not a macro game, game 2 was I'll admit that, and game 3 started by a 1 base build. I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for this but. MVP beat foreigners, when matched up against polt, he couldn't even take a game off them. Sure Nerchio and Slivko are good, hell nerchio might even be low code s level, however, when it comes to challenging the tip-top of code s, MVP has not done that (in macro games) since the middle of GSL season 2. You can make a bunch of excuses and counter-arguments that MVP is injured, MVP is smart, MVP does what it takes to win, but that does not cover up the flaw in his games. He has not been showing good play in korea, and I'll be honest, most people care about GSL/WCS a lot more than they do IEM. Or at least the GSL champion is reguarded much more highly than the winner of IEM. edit: sorry slipped my mind MVP did take a game off polt =/ | ||
|
bittman
Australia8759 Posts
On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote: I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. There's a sort of negative connotation with 'cheesy' as people equate 'cheesy' players as less skilled players. People dismissing Heart for ages for this sort of reason for example =/ If we were to define it though it's hard. How much cheese do you do until you are 'cheesy'? =P EDIT: And Polt v MVP was 2-1....sooooooo..... | ||
|
Aerisky
United States12129 Posts
Since Stork's not here, go MC  | ||
|
vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On August 21 2012 16:00 ElephantBaby wrote: Choosing mech at the first place is giving them a choice to turtle when things go south. And then they can possibly win in late late game with great decision and starsense. That doesn't mean turtle at the beginning of the match. So does going ling/infestor (you can turtle by building spine wall). All solid builds should allow you to do both. And if you see his game on smaller maps (Ohana), he basically wins because he trades evenly with thor/vikings/hellions vs BL/Infestor/Corrupter but he just destroys the zerg eco with hellion runbys. | ||
|
Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On August 21 2012 16:06 OnFiRe888 wrote: Game on daybreak was not a macro game, game 2 was I'll admit that, and game 3 started by a 1 base build. I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for this but. MVP beat foreigners, when matched up against polt, he couldn't even take a game off them. Sure Nerchio and Slivko are good, hell nerchio might even be low code s level, however, when it comes to challenging the tip-top of code s, MVP has not done that (in macro games) since the middle of GSL season 2. You can make a bunch of excuses and counter-arguments that MVP is injured, MVP is smart, MVP does what it takes to win, but that does not cover up the flaw in his games. He has not been showing good play in korea, and I'll be honest, most people care about GSL/WCS a lot more than they do IEM. Or at least the GSL champion is reguarded much more highly than the winner of IEM. Did you not see the game vs Polt that Mvp won in Marine tank vs Marine tank? That was a damn good game, Polt was just better overall that day and It's really not that surprising that Polt beat him 2-1. The competition at IEM was tough, that tournament had a whole bunch of Code S regulars in Nestea, MC, Oz, Naniwa, Supernova, ForGG. None of them were able to beat these " easy foreigner Zergs " except for Mvp. In macro games. First it was " Mvp sucks outside GSL, he can only win when he can prepare for a series " now It's " he beat a bunch of foreigners! " It's laughable the crap that he gets. If his IEM games were not enough to convince you then nothing will be because those were fucking amazing. Also, Daybreak was only not a macro game because Squirtle fucked up and died, it was a hellion drop expansion build by Mvp and you can clearly see that in the VOD. It's not Mvp's fault that Squirtle died to the pressure. | ||
|
OnFiRe888
United States629 Posts
On August 21 2012 16:03 vthree wrote: And Blizzard already said that it is by design. Terrans are suppose to be more aggressive early mid game. Cheeses are used to keep your opponent honest, especially in BoX matches. And Squirtle is famous for his 2 base Colo all-in as well, so Squirtle is cheesy as well. Actually, I can't think of a top progamer that hasn't cheesed. So by your definition, all progamers should be called cheesy. MVP was doing constant 3 rax scv pull, 2 rax proxy, etx, an attack that hits at like 5 min, that's the definition of a cheese. A timing attack is something that hits later in the game and meant to utilize upgrades, thus is why it is called a "timing attack". Can you please get your terminology correct before you judge what I am saying? Yes, protoss are heavily reliant on timing attacks, but we don't really see them cheese. (my interpretation of protoss cheese would be like 4 gate or 2 gate proxy) Squirtle WAS known for his 2 base collo, but he hasn't pulled it out in a while. And unlike MVP, we've seen a bajillion games from squirtle in the past month, so we know that he is not pulling it out in crucial matches. | ||
| ||
