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On August 21 2012 16:06 OnFiRe888 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:01 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote:
I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. It's not wrong to call him cheesy when he cheeses but It's wrong to say he can't play macro because he can and just did at IEM, he also played macro builds in the first 3 games vs Squirtle and won with it, then Squirtle won the next 3, then the last game. Game on daybreak was not a macro game, game 2 was I'll admit that, and game 3 started by a 1 base build. I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for this but. MVP beat foreigners, when matched up against polt, he couldn't even take a game off them. Sure Nerchio and Slivko are good, hell nerchio might even be low code s level, however, when it comes to challenging the tip-top of code s, MVP has not done that (in macro games) since the middle of GSL season 2. You can make a bunch of excuses and counter-arguments that MVP is injured, MVP is smart, MVP does what it takes to win, but that does not cover up the flaw in his games. He has not been showing good play in korea, and I'll be honest, most people care about GSL/WCS a lot more than they do IEM. Or at least the GSL champion is reguarded much more highly than the winner of IEM.
What? He went 1-2 vs Polt in WCS. He owned Polt when they both played marine/tank... Polt beat him by hitting a timing due to delay siege from MVP.
By your definition, Polt didn't want to go into a macro game vs MVP. Not the other way around. I am not sure why some posters put 'macro games' above other games. If you see your opponent get greedy, you go and punish it (like Polt did to MVP). You don't go 'Well, I need to play a macro game to show I am a better player so I am going to play macro from behind.
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On August 21 2012 15:43 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
In terms of straightforward standard games, MVP is nowhere near the top anymore.
Two months ago I would have been inclined to agree, but his games recently showed that his mechanics are still superior to the majority of Code S players. And I'm only saying "majority" because there's Taeja plus a few guys I haven't seen play in a while, but all things considered mvp is pretty much at the top of the game.
As long as he has the ability to play at the same or higher level than most of his peers, cheese, all-ins and mind games are merely strategic choices, not choices made out of weakness.
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On August 21 2012 16:09 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:06 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:01 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote:
I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. It's not wrong to call him cheesy when he cheeses but It's wrong to say he can't play macro because he can and just did at IEM, he also played macro builds in the first 3 games vs Squirtle and won with it, then Squirtle won the next 3, then the last game. Game on daybreak was not a macro game, game 2 was I'll admit that, and game 3 started by a 1 base build. I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for this but. MVP beat foreigners, when matched up against polt, he couldn't even take a game off them. Sure Nerchio and Slivko are good, hell nerchio might even be low code s level, however, when it comes to challenging the tip-top of code s, MVP has not done that (in macro games) since the middle of GSL season 2. You can make a bunch of excuses and counter-arguments that MVP is injured, MVP is smart, MVP does what it takes to win, but that does not cover up the flaw in his games. He has not been showing good play in korea, and I'll be honest, most people care about GSL/WCS a lot more than they do IEM. Or at least the GSL champion is reguarded much more highly than the winner of IEM. Did you not see the game vs Polt that Mvp won in Marine tank vs Marine tank? That was a damn good game, Polt was just better overall that day and It's really not that surprising that Polt beat him 2-1. The competition at IEM was tough, that tournament had a whole bunch of Code S regulars in Nestea, MC, Oz, Naniwa, Supernova, ForGG. None of them were able to beat these " easy foreigner Zergs " except for Mvp. In macro games. First it was " Mvp sucks outside GSL, he can only win when he can prepare for a series " now It's " he beat a bunch of foreigners! " It's laughable the crap that he gets. If his IEM games were not enough to convince you then nothing will be because those were fucking amazing. Also, Daybreak was only not a macro game because Squirtle fucked up and died, it was a hellion drop expansion build by Mvp and you can clearly see that in the VOD. It's not Mvp's fault that Squirtle died to the pressure.
So you're saying that if a diamond player were to go up against a bronze player and play spectacular macro game, therefore he should be promoted to masters?
It is apparent that foreigners are inferior to Koreans, and to compare the competition at IEM to the competition at the GSL, well there is no comparison. No matter how you put it, no matter how you say it, you cannot look me in the eye and say that IEM is better competition than the GSL.
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On August 21 2012 16:06 OnFiRe888 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:01 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote:
I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. It's not wrong to call him cheesy when he cheeses but It's wrong to say he can't play macro because he can and just did at IEM, he also played macro builds in the first 3 games vs Squirtle and won with it, then Squirtle won the next 3, then the last game. Game on daybreak was not a macro game, game 2 was I'll admit that, and game 3 started by a 1 base build. I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for this but. MVP beat foreigners, when matched up against polt, he couldn't even take a game off them. Sure Nerchio and Slivko are good, hell nerchio might even be low code s level, however, when it comes to challenging the tip-top of code s, MVP has not done that (in macro games) since the middle of GSL season 2. You can make a bunch of excuses and counter-arguments that MVP is injured, MVP is smart, MVP does what it takes to win, but that does not cover up the flaw in his games. He has not been showing good play in korea, and I'll be honest, most people care about GSL/WCS a lot more than they do IEM. Or at least the GSL champion is reguarded much more highly than the winner of IEM. edit: sorry slipped my mind MVP did take a game off polt =/
Okay I know you said that you didn't watch IEM, but do yourself a favor and go watch IEM before you talk about this kind of stuff.
On August 21 2012 16:14 OnFiRe888 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:09 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:06 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:01 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote:
I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. It's not wrong to call him cheesy when he cheeses but It's wrong to say he can't play macro because he can and just did at IEM, he also played macro builds in the first 3 games vs Squirtle and won with it, then Squirtle won the next 3, then the last game. Game on daybreak was not a macro game, game 2 was I'll admit that, and game 3 started by a 1 base build. I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for this but. MVP beat foreigners, when matched up against polt, he couldn't even take a game off them. Sure Nerchio and Slivko are good, hell nerchio might even be low code s level, however, when it comes to challenging the tip-top of code s, MVP has not done that (in macro games) since the middle of GSL season 2. You can make a bunch of excuses and counter-arguments that MVP is injured, MVP is smart, MVP does what it takes to win, but that does not cover up the flaw in his games. He has not been showing good play in korea, and I'll be honest, most people care about GSL/WCS a lot more than they do IEM. Or at least the GSL champion is reguarded much more highly than the winner of IEM. Did you not see the game vs Polt that Mvp won in Marine tank vs Marine tank? That was a damn good game, Polt was just better overall that day and It's really not that surprising that Polt beat him 2-1. The competition at IEM was tough, that tournament had a whole bunch of Code S regulars in Nestea, MC, Oz, Naniwa, Supernova, ForGG. None of them were able to beat these " easy foreigner Zergs " except for Mvp. In macro games. First it was " Mvp sucks outside GSL, he can only win when he can prepare for a series " now It's " he beat a bunch of foreigners! " It's laughable the crap that he gets. If his IEM games were not enough to convince you then nothing will be because those were fucking amazing. Also, Daybreak was only not a macro game because Squirtle fucked up and died, it was a hellion drop expansion build by Mvp and you can clearly see that in the VOD. It's not Mvp's fault that Squirtle died to the pressure. So you're saying that if a diamond player were to go up against a bronze player and play spectacular macro game, therefore he should be promoted to masters? It is apparent that foreigners are inferior to Koreans, and to compare the competition at IEM to the competition at the GSL, well there is no comparison. No matter how you put it, no matter how you say it, you cannot look me in the eye and say that IEM is better competition than the GSL.
Since this seems to have gone over your head, MC is a good player yeah? We can agree on that?
MC got 3-0'd by Nerchio, Nerchio is really fucking good and could easily compete in Code S. Mvp beat Nerchio in really amazing macro games, seriously just go watch the games and stop spewing bullshit in this thread.
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On August 21 2012 16:14 OnFiRe888 wrote:
It is apparent that foreigners are inferior to Koreans, and to compare the competition at IEM to the competition at the GSL, well there is no comparison. No matter how you put it, no matter how you say it, you cannot look me in the eye and say that IEM is better competition than the GSL.
It doesn't matter. If you watch Supernova play against foreigners, and you watch mvp play against foreigners, accurate comparisons can still be made when it comes to overall level of play.
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On August 21 2012 16:14 OnFiRe888 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:09 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:06 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:01 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote:
I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. It's not wrong to call him cheesy when he cheeses but It's wrong to say he can't play macro because he can and just did at IEM, he also played macro builds in the first 3 games vs Squirtle and won with it, then Squirtle won the next 3, then the last game. Game on daybreak was not a macro game, game 2 was I'll admit that, and game 3 started by a 1 base build. I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for this but. MVP beat foreigners, when matched up against polt, he couldn't even take a game off them. Sure Nerchio and Slivko are good, hell nerchio might even be low code s level, however, when it comes to challenging the tip-top of code s, MVP has not done that (in macro games) since the middle of GSL season 2. You can make a bunch of excuses and counter-arguments that MVP is injured, MVP is smart, MVP does what it takes to win, but that does not cover up the flaw in his games. He has not been showing good play in korea, and I'll be honest, most people care about GSL/WCS a lot more than they do IEM. Or at least the GSL champion is reguarded much more highly than the winner of IEM. Did you not see the game vs Polt that Mvp won in Marine tank vs Marine tank? That was a damn good game, Polt was just better overall that day and It's really not that surprising that Polt beat him 2-1. The competition at IEM was tough, that tournament had a whole bunch of Code S regulars in Nestea, MC, Oz, Naniwa, Supernova, ForGG. None of them were able to beat these " easy foreigner Zergs " except for Mvp. In macro games. First it was " Mvp sucks outside GSL, he can only win when he can prepare for a series " now It's " he beat a bunch of foreigners! " It's laughable the crap that he gets. If his IEM games were not enough to convince you then nothing will be because those were fucking amazing. Also, Daybreak was only not a macro game because Squirtle fucked up and died, it was a hellion drop expansion build by Mvp and you can clearly see that in the VOD. It's not Mvp's fault that Squirtle died to the pressure. So you're saying that if a diamond player were to go up against a bronze player and play spectacular macro game, therefore he should be promoted to masters? It is apparent that foreigners are inferior to Koreans, and to compare the competition at IEM to the competition at the GSL, well there is no comparison. No matter how you put it, no matter how you say it, you cannot look me in the eye and say that IEM is better competition than the GSL.
No one is saying IEM is better competition than GSL. But MVP is the 3rd ranked GSL player (behind DRG and Seed). Where is Polt ranked?
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On August 21 2012 16:14 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:06 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:01 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote:
I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. It's not wrong to call him cheesy when he cheeses but It's wrong to say he can't play macro because he can and just did at IEM, he also played macro builds in the first 3 games vs Squirtle and won with it, then Squirtle won the next 3, then the last game. Game on daybreak was not a macro game, game 2 was I'll admit that, and game 3 started by a 1 base build. I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for this but. MVP beat foreigners, when matched up against polt, he couldn't even take a game off them. Sure Nerchio and Slivko are good, hell nerchio might even be low code s level, however, when it comes to challenging the tip-top of code s, MVP has not done that (in macro games) since the middle of GSL season 2. You can make a bunch of excuses and counter-arguments that MVP is injured, MVP is smart, MVP does what it takes to win, but that does not cover up the flaw in his games. He has not been showing good play in korea, and I'll be honest, most people care about GSL/WCS a lot more than they do IEM. Or at least the GSL champion is reguarded much more highly than the winner of IEM. edit: sorry slipped my mind MVP did take a game off polt =/ Okay I know you said that you didn't watch IEM, but do yourself a favor and go watch IEM before you talk about this kind of stuff. Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:14 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:09 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:06 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:01 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote:
I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. It's not wrong to call him cheesy when he cheeses but It's wrong to say he can't play macro because he can and just did at IEM, he also played macro builds in the first 3 games vs Squirtle and won with it, then Squirtle won the next 3, then the last game. Game on daybreak was not a macro game, game 2 was I'll admit that, and game 3 started by a 1 base build. I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for this but. MVP beat foreigners, when matched up against polt, he couldn't even take a game off them. Sure Nerchio and Slivko are good, hell nerchio might even be low code s level, however, when it comes to challenging the tip-top of code s, MVP has not done that (in macro games) since the middle of GSL season 2. You can make a bunch of excuses and counter-arguments that MVP is injured, MVP is smart, MVP does what it takes to win, but that does not cover up the flaw in his games. He has not been showing good play in korea, and I'll be honest, most people care about GSL/WCS a lot more than they do IEM. Or at least the GSL champion is reguarded much more highly than the winner of IEM. Did you not see the game vs Polt that Mvp won in Marine tank vs Marine tank? That was a damn good game, Polt was just better overall that day and It's really not that surprising that Polt beat him 2-1. The competition at IEM was tough, that tournament had a whole bunch of Code S regulars in Nestea, MC, Oz, Naniwa, Supernova, ForGG. None of them were able to beat these " easy foreigner Zergs " except for Mvp. In macro games. First it was " Mvp sucks outside GSL, he can only win when he can prepare for a series " now It's " he beat a bunch of foreigners! " It's laughable the crap that he gets. If his IEM games were not enough to convince you then nothing will be because those were fucking amazing. Also, Daybreak was only not a macro game because Squirtle fucked up and died, it was a hellion drop expansion build by Mvp and you can clearly see that in the VOD. It's not Mvp's fault that Squirtle died to the pressure. So you're saying that if a diamond player were to go up against a bronze player and play spectacular macro game, therefore he should be promoted to masters? It is apparent that foreigners are inferior to Koreans, and to compare the competition at IEM to the competition at the GSL, well there is no comparison. No matter how you put it, no matter how you say it, you cannot look me in the eye and say that IEM is better competition than the GSL. Since this seems to have gone over your head, MC is a good player yeah? We can agree on that? MC got 3-0'd by Nerchio, Nerchio is really fucking good and could easily compete in Code S. Mvp beat Nerchio in really amazing macro games, seriously just go watch the games and stop spewing bullshit in this thread.
Woah there dude, just because I challenged the popular belief doesn't mean you have the right to go all vulgar on me. I'm merely speculating that MVP is not withing the top 16 when it comes to the players in the world. I will stand by my argument, foreigners < koreans, therefore a we should not judge koreans at foreigner tournaments the same as koreans in korean tournaments. Diamond players =/= gold players. Can we at least agree on that?
As for MC 3-0ing Nerchio, well, pvz is a very frustrating matchup for everybody atm, not saying it's imbalanced but sometimes it can feel like you're trying to tackle a brick wall of spines and there is not much you can do about it. It's kinda like tvz where you really have to wear down your opponent and zergs have gotten so good at defending that it's harder and harder to do. Therefore, all their stuffs are faster and all their things are stronger. Protoss needs to vary things up. =D
I'm gonna let you guys talk amongst yourselves, because this is getting nowhere, just like anywhere else, there are always people who agree with what you say, and people who do not. There almost always evidence pointing either way, and you can always counter what somebody says. So let's just hope PartinG wins this OSL. XD
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I've said all I can if you still don't get it It's not worth wasting my time talking about this further ~_~
I wish people realized that European players are actually good, ForGG and Supernova both lost to Vortix but Mvp crushed Vortix and then crushed Nerchio too. It doesn't have to be in GSL to make comparisons.
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On August 21 2012 16:18 OnFiRe888 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:14 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:06 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:01 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote:
I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. It's not wrong to call him cheesy when he cheeses but It's wrong to say he can't play macro because he can and just did at IEM, he also played macro builds in the first 3 games vs Squirtle and won with it, then Squirtle won the next 3, then the last game. Game on daybreak was not a macro game, game 2 was I'll admit that, and game 3 started by a 1 base build. I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for this but. MVP beat foreigners, when matched up against polt, he couldn't even take a game off them. Sure Nerchio and Slivko are good, hell nerchio might even be low code s level, however, when it comes to challenging the tip-top of code s, MVP has not done that (in macro games) since the middle of GSL season 2. You can make a bunch of excuses and counter-arguments that MVP is injured, MVP is smart, MVP does what it takes to win, but that does not cover up the flaw in his games. He has not been showing good play in korea, and I'll be honest, most people care about GSL/WCS a lot more than they do IEM. Or at least the GSL champion is reguarded much more highly than the winner of IEM. edit: sorry slipped my mind MVP did take a game off polt =/ Okay I know you said that you didn't watch IEM, but do yourself a favor and go watch IEM before you talk about this kind of stuff. On August 21 2012 16:14 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:09 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:06 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:01 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote:
I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. It's not wrong to call him cheesy when he cheeses but It's wrong to say he can't play macro because he can and just did at IEM, he also played macro builds in the first 3 games vs Squirtle and won with it, then Squirtle won the next 3, then the last game. Game on daybreak was not a macro game, game 2 was I'll admit that, and game 3 started by a 1 base build. I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for this but. MVP beat foreigners, when matched up against polt, he couldn't even take a game off them. Sure Nerchio and Slivko are good, hell nerchio might even be low code s level, however, when it comes to challenging the tip-top of code s, MVP has not done that (in macro games) since the middle of GSL season 2. You can make a bunch of excuses and counter-arguments that MVP is injured, MVP is smart, MVP does what it takes to win, but that does not cover up the flaw in his games. He has not been showing good play in korea, and I'll be honest, most people care about GSL/WCS a lot more than they do IEM. Or at least the GSL champion is reguarded much more highly than the winner of IEM. Did you not see the game vs Polt that Mvp won in Marine tank vs Marine tank? That was a damn good game, Polt was just better overall that day and It's really not that surprising that Polt beat him 2-1. The competition at IEM was tough, that tournament had a whole bunch of Code S regulars in Nestea, MC, Oz, Naniwa, Supernova, ForGG. None of them were able to beat these " easy foreigner Zergs " except for Mvp. In macro games. First it was " Mvp sucks outside GSL, he can only win when he can prepare for a series " now It's " he beat a bunch of foreigners! " It's laughable the crap that he gets. If his IEM games were not enough to convince you then nothing will be because those were fucking amazing. Also, Daybreak was only not a macro game because Squirtle fucked up and died, it was a hellion drop expansion build by Mvp and you can clearly see that in the VOD. It's not Mvp's fault that Squirtle died to the pressure. So you're saying that if a diamond player were to go up against a bronze player and play spectacular macro game, therefore he should be promoted to masters? It is apparent that foreigners are inferior to Koreans, and to compare the competition at IEM to the competition at the GSL, well there is no comparison. No matter how you put it, no matter how you say it, you cannot look me in the eye and say that IEM is better competition than the GSL. Since this seems to have gone over your head, MC is a good player yeah? We can agree on that? MC got 3-0'd by Nerchio, Nerchio is really fucking good and could easily compete in Code S. Mvp beat Nerchio in really amazing macro games, seriously just go watch the games and stop spewing bullshit in this thread. Woah there dude, just because I challenged the popular belief doesn't mean you have the right to go all vulgar on me. I'm merely speculating that MVP is not withing the top 16 when it comes to the players in the world. I will stand by my argument, foreigners < koreans, therefore a we should not judge koreans at foreigner tournaments the same as koreans in korean tournaments. Diamond players =/= gold players. Can we at least agree on that?
Could you please give me YOUR top 16? And don't tell me you will rank Polt above MVP because he beat him 1-2 in WCS (in non macro games). Like you said, GSL is the standard we use to judge korean player levels. What has Polt done in GSL this year?
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People always say this, remember when Mvp went to MLG Anaheim last year? Everyone said he was slumping hard(because his last tournament placing 1 month prior was ro32) and was barely even a favorite to take his group and we all know how that went - he destroyed it.
People judge so much based on so few games, Mvp could be doing significantly better than Taeja in practice for all we know, the only reason more people think of Taeja lately is because he's competing in more tournaments.
GSL is a _HARD_ tournament, not just because of the skill level, but also because you have one chance, if you have an off day noone sees you play for another month or two unless you compete in other events.
I mean, hell, Taeja lost to some guy called Balloon in OSL qualifiers - if he hadn't of competed in any events since then would people be raving so much?
Taeja's really really good obviously, but this flavour of the month "best player" thing is so frustrating to watch/read.
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On August 21 2012 16:20 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:18 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:14 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:06 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:01 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote:
I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. It's not wrong to call him cheesy when he cheeses but It's wrong to say he can't play macro because he can and just did at IEM, he also played macro builds in the first 3 games vs Squirtle and won with it, then Squirtle won the next 3, then the last game. Game on daybreak was not a macro game, game 2 was I'll admit that, and game 3 started by a 1 base build. I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for this but. MVP beat foreigners, when matched up against polt, he couldn't even take a game off them. Sure Nerchio and Slivko are good, hell nerchio might even be low code s level, however, when it comes to challenging the tip-top of code s, MVP has not done that (in macro games) since the middle of GSL season 2. You can make a bunch of excuses and counter-arguments that MVP is injured, MVP is smart, MVP does what it takes to win, but that does not cover up the flaw in his games. He has not been showing good play in korea, and I'll be honest, most people care about GSL/WCS a lot more than they do IEM. Or at least the GSL champion is reguarded much more highly than the winner of IEM. edit: sorry slipped my mind MVP did take a game off polt =/ Okay I know you said that you didn't watch IEM, but do yourself a favor and go watch IEM before you talk about this kind of stuff. On August 21 2012 16:14 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:09 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:06 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:01 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote:
I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. It's not wrong to call him cheesy when he cheeses but It's wrong to say he can't play macro because he can and just did at IEM, he also played macro builds in the first 3 games vs Squirtle and won with it, then Squirtle won the next 3, then the last game. Game on daybreak was not a macro game, game 2 was I'll admit that, and game 3 started by a 1 base build. I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for this but. MVP beat foreigners, when matched up against polt, he couldn't even take a game off them. Sure Nerchio and Slivko are good, hell nerchio might even be low code s level, however, when it comes to challenging the tip-top of code s, MVP has not done that (in macro games) since the middle of GSL season 2. You can make a bunch of excuses and counter-arguments that MVP is injured, MVP is smart, MVP does what it takes to win, but that does not cover up the flaw in his games. He has not been showing good play in korea, and I'll be honest, most people care about GSL/WCS a lot more than they do IEM. Or at least the GSL champion is reguarded much more highly than the winner of IEM. Did you not see the game vs Polt that Mvp won in Marine tank vs Marine tank? That was a damn good game, Polt was just better overall that day and It's really not that surprising that Polt beat him 2-1. The competition at IEM was tough, that tournament had a whole bunch of Code S regulars in Nestea, MC, Oz, Naniwa, Supernova, ForGG. None of them were able to beat these " easy foreigner Zergs " except for Mvp. In macro games. First it was " Mvp sucks outside GSL, he can only win when he can prepare for a series " now It's " he beat a bunch of foreigners! " It's laughable the crap that he gets. If his IEM games were not enough to convince you then nothing will be because those were fucking amazing. Also, Daybreak was only not a macro game because Squirtle fucked up and died, it was a hellion drop expansion build by Mvp and you can clearly see that in the VOD. It's not Mvp's fault that Squirtle died to the pressure. So you're saying that if a diamond player were to go up against a bronze player and play spectacular macro game, therefore he should be promoted to masters? It is apparent that foreigners are inferior to Koreans, and to compare the competition at IEM to the competition at the GSL, well there is no comparison. No matter how you put it, no matter how you say it, you cannot look me in the eye and say that IEM is better competition than the GSL. Since this seems to have gone over your head, MC is a good player yeah? We can agree on that? MC got 3-0'd by Nerchio, Nerchio is really fucking good and could easily compete in Code S. Mvp beat Nerchio in really amazing macro games, seriously just go watch the games and stop spewing bullshit in this thread. Woah there dude, just because I challenged the popular belief doesn't mean you have the right to go all vulgar on me. I'm merely speculating that MVP is not withing the top 16 when it comes to the players in the world. I will stand by my argument, foreigners < koreans, therefore a we should not judge koreans at foreigner tournaments the same as koreans in korean tournaments. Diamond players =/= gold players. Can we at least agree on that? Could you please give me YOUR top 16? And don't tell me you will rank Polt above MVP because he beat him 1-2 in WCS (in non macro games). Like you said, GSL is the standard we use to judge korean player levels. What has Polt done in GSL this year?
I am a protoss player and my top 16 would be very biased. kekekekekekeke
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On August 21 2012 16:23 OnFiRe888 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:20 vthree wrote:On August 21 2012 16:18 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:14 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:06 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:01 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote:
I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. It's not wrong to call him cheesy when he cheeses but It's wrong to say he can't play macro because he can and just did at IEM, he also played macro builds in the first 3 games vs Squirtle and won with it, then Squirtle won the next 3, then the last game. Game on daybreak was not a macro game, game 2 was I'll admit that, and game 3 started by a 1 base build. I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for this but. MVP beat foreigners, when matched up against polt, he couldn't even take a game off them. Sure Nerchio and Slivko are good, hell nerchio might even be low code s level, however, when it comes to challenging the tip-top of code s, MVP has not done that (in macro games) since the middle of GSL season 2. You can make a bunch of excuses and counter-arguments that MVP is injured, MVP is smart, MVP does what it takes to win, but that does not cover up the flaw in his games. He has not been showing good play in korea, and I'll be honest, most people care about GSL/WCS a lot more than they do IEM. Or at least the GSL champion is reguarded much more highly than the winner of IEM. edit: sorry slipped my mind MVP did take a game off polt =/ Okay I know you said that you didn't watch IEM, but do yourself a favor and go watch IEM before you talk about this kind of stuff. On August 21 2012 16:14 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:09 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:06 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:01 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote:
I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. It's not wrong to call him cheesy when he cheeses but It's wrong to say he can't play macro because he can and just did at IEM, he also played macro builds in the first 3 games vs Squirtle and won with it, then Squirtle won the next 3, then the last game. Game on daybreak was not a macro game, game 2 was I'll admit that, and game 3 started by a 1 base build. I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for this but. MVP beat foreigners, when matched up against polt, he couldn't even take a game off them. Sure Nerchio and Slivko are good, hell nerchio might even be low code s level, however, when it comes to challenging the tip-top of code s, MVP has not done that (in macro games) since the middle of GSL season 2. You can make a bunch of excuses and counter-arguments that MVP is injured, MVP is smart, MVP does what it takes to win, but that does not cover up the flaw in his games. He has not been showing good play in korea, and I'll be honest, most people care about GSL/WCS a lot more than they do IEM. Or at least the GSL champion is reguarded much more highly than the winner of IEM. Did you not see the game vs Polt that Mvp won in Marine tank vs Marine tank? That was a damn good game, Polt was just better overall that day and It's really not that surprising that Polt beat him 2-1. The competition at IEM was tough, that tournament had a whole bunch of Code S regulars in Nestea, MC, Oz, Naniwa, Supernova, ForGG. None of them were able to beat these " easy foreigner Zergs " except for Mvp. In macro games. First it was " Mvp sucks outside GSL, he can only win when he can prepare for a series " now It's " he beat a bunch of foreigners! " It's laughable the crap that he gets. If his IEM games were not enough to convince you then nothing will be because those were fucking amazing. Also, Daybreak was only not a macro game because Squirtle fucked up and died, it was a hellion drop expansion build by Mvp and you can clearly see that in the VOD. It's not Mvp's fault that Squirtle died to the pressure. So you're saying that if a diamond player were to go up against a bronze player and play spectacular macro game, therefore he should be promoted to masters? It is apparent that foreigners are inferior to Koreans, and to compare the competition at IEM to the competition at the GSL, well there is no comparison. No matter how you put it, no matter how you say it, you cannot look me in the eye and say that IEM is better competition than the GSL. Since this seems to have gone over your head, MC is a good player yeah? We can agree on that? MC got 3-0'd by Nerchio, Nerchio is really fucking good and could easily compete in Code S. Mvp beat Nerchio in really amazing macro games, seriously just go watch the games and stop spewing bullshit in this thread. Woah there dude, just because I challenged the popular belief doesn't mean you have the right to go all vulgar on me. I'm merely speculating that MVP is not withing the top 16 when it comes to the players in the world. I will stand by my argument, foreigners < koreans, therefore a we should not judge koreans at foreigner tournaments the same as koreans in korean tournaments. Diamond players =/= gold players. Can we at least agree on that? Could you please give me YOUR top 16? And don't tell me you will rank Polt above MVP because he beat him 1-2 in WCS (in non macro games). Like you said, GSL is the standard we use to judge korean player levels. What has Polt done in GSL this year? I am a protoss player and my top 16 would be very biased. kekekekekekeke
If it has Squirtle and Creator in it, then yeah.
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On August 21 2012 16:23 OnFiRe888 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:20 vthree wrote:On August 21 2012 16:18 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:14 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:06 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:01 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote:
I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. It's not wrong to call him cheesy when he cheeses but It's wrong to say he can't play macro because he can and just did at IEM, he also played macro builds in the first 3 games vs Squirtle and won with it, then Squirtle won the next 3, then the last game. Game on daybreak was not a macro game, game 2 was I'll admit that, and game 3 started by a 1 base build. I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for this but. MVP beat foreigners, when matched up against polt, he couldn't even take a game off them. Sure Nerchio and Slivko are good, hell nerchio might even be low code s level, however, when it comes to challenging the tip-top of code s, MVP has not done that (in macro games) since the middle of GSL season 2. You can make a bunch of excuses and counter-arguments that MVP is injured, MVP is smart, MVP does what it takes to win, but that does not cover up the flaw in his games. He has not been showing good play in korea, and I'll be honest, most people care about GSL/WCS a lot more than they do IEM. Or at least the GSL champion is reguarded much more highly than the winner of IEM. edit: sorry slipped my mind MVP did take a game off polt =/ Okay I know you said that you didn't watch IEM, but do yourself a favor and go watch IEM before you talk about this kind of stuff. On August 21 2012 16:14 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:09 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:06 OnFiRe888 wrote:On August 21 2012 16:01 Dodgin wrote:On August 21 2012 16:00 OnFiRe888 wrote:
I don't understand why it is wrong to call MVP cheesy when he cheeses. Sure it's smart, sure it's well-planned, but the fact that he cheesed makes him cheesy. Why would MVP cheese in the first place? Because it gives him the best chance to win, I remember that in interviews back during GSL 2, he said he couldn't practice a lot because of his wrist, therefore he had to do more aggressive strategies, and that is what he did. Even look at the GSL finals, the games that went longer, squirtle won. It's not wrong to call him cheesy when he cheeses but It's wrong to say he can't play macro because he can and just did at IEM, he also played macro builds in the first 3 games vs Squirtle and won with it, then Squirtle won the next 3, then the last game. Game on daybreak was not a macro game, game 2 was I'll admit that, and game 3 started by a 1 base build. I know a lot of people are gonna hate me for this but. MVP beat foreigners, when matched up against polt, he couldn't even take a game off them. Sure Nerchio and Slivko are good, hell nerchio might even be low code s level, however, when it comes to challenging the tip-top of code s, MVP has not done that (in macro games) since the middle of GSL season 2. You can make a bunch of excuses and counter-arguments that MVP is injured, MVP is smart, MVP does what it takes to win, but that does not cover up the flaw in his games. He has not been showing good play in korea, and I'll be honest, most people care about GSL/WCS a lot more than they do IEM. Or at least the GSL champion is reguarded much more highly than the winner of IEM. Did you not see the game vs Polt that Mvp won in Marine tank vs Marine tank? That was a damn good game, Polt was just better overall that day and It's really not that surprising that Polt beat him 2-1. The competition at IEM was tough, that tournament had a whole bunch of Code S regulars in Nestea, MC, Oz, Naniwa, Supernova, ForGG. None of them were able to beat these " easy foreigner Zergs " except for Mvp. In macro games. First it was " Mvp sucks outside GSL, he can only win when he can prepare for a series " now It's " he beat a bunch of foreigners! " It's laughable the crap that he gets. If his IEM games were not enough to convince you then nothing will be because those were fucking amazing. Also, Daybreak was only not a macro game because Squirtle fucked up and died, it was a hellion drop expansion build by Mvp and you can clearly see that in the VOD. It's not Mvp's fault that Squirtle died to the pressure. So you're saying that if a diamond player were to go up against a bronze player and play spectacular macro game, therefore he should be promoted to masters? It is apparent that foreigners are inferior to Koreans, and to compare the competition at IEM to the competition at the GSL, well there is no comparison. No matter how you put it, no matter how you say it, you cannot look me in the eye and say that IEM is better competition than the GSL. Since this seems to have gone over your head, MC is a good player yeah? We can agree on that? MC got 3-0'd by Nerchio, Nerchio is really fucking good and could easily compete in Code S. Mvp beat Nerchio in really amazing macro games, seriously just go watch the games and stop spewing bullshit in this thread. Woah there dude, just because I challenged the popular belief doesn't mean you have the right to go all vulgar on me. I'm merely speculating that MVP is not withing the top 16 when it comes to the players in the world. I will stand by my argument, foreigners < koreans, therefore a we should not judge koreans at foreigner tournaments the same as koreans in korean tournaments. Diamond players =/= gold players. Can we at least agree on that? Could you please give me YOUR top 16? And don't tell me you will rank Polt above MVP because he beat him 1-2 in WCS (in non macro games). Like you said, GSL is the standard we use to judge korean player levels. What has Polt done in GSL this year? I am a protoss player and my top 16 would be very biased. kekekekekekeke
I would still like to see it. How many protoss can you put above MVP? Seed, Squirtle, MC? Or are you going to put Naniwa, Oz, Creator, Parting up there as well? Might as well go with Huk as well...
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The worst thing is that you didn't even watch IEM and you're trying to comment on Mvp's skill level or recent games, It's so ignorant.
That feeling when you realize you just wasted a lot of time arguing with someone with no purpose since they refuse to even look at the evidence you're talking about 
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On August 21 2012 16:26 Dodgin wrote:The worst thing is that you didn't even watch IEM and you're trying to comment on Mvp's skill level or recent games, It's so ignorant. That feeling when you realize you just wasted a lot of time arguing with someone with no purpose since they refuse to even look at the evidence you're talking about
Priceless
for everything else TL Mastercard.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On August 21 2012 16:22 snafoo wrote:
People always say this, remember when Mvp went to MLG Anaheim last year? Everyone said he was slumping hard(because his last tournament placing 1 month prior was ro32) and was barely even a favorite to take his group and we all know how that went - he destroyed it.
People judge so much based on so few games, Mvp could be doing significantly better than Taeja in practice for all we know, the only reason more people think of Taeja lately is because he's competing in more tournaments.
GSL is a _HARD_ tournament, not just because of the skill level, but also because you have one chance, if you have an off day noone sees you play for another month or two unless you compete in other events.
I mean, hell, Taeja lost to some guy called Balloon in OSL qualifiers - if he hadn't of competed in any events since then would people be raving so much?
Taeja's really really good obviously, but this flavour of the month "best player" thing is so frustrating to watch/read.
balloon walkover taeja
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On August 21 2012 16:26 Dodgin wrote:The worst thing is that you didn't even watch IEM and you're trying to comment on Mvp's skill level or recent games, It's so ignorant. That feeling when you realize you just wasted a lot of time arguing with someone with no purpose since they refuse to even look at the evidence you're talking about
If arguing with me is so frustrating, than don't do it. You have no obligation, the only person that is affected is me and you, and in the end, you are the one that ends pissed off. Learn to let things go, people can be wrong. If people in LR threads want to say JD is the best player in the world, let them, it's their problem and belief. And in the end, you don't actually think you will sway his opinion do you? There's no such thing as winning and losing on an internet forum, so there's no need to get so worked up about something that does not portray a winner or loser.
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On August 21 2012 16:26 Dodgin wrote:The worst thing is that you didn't even watch IEM and you're trying to comment on Mvp's skill level or recent games, It's so ignorant. That feeling when you realize you just wasted a lot of time arguing with someone with no purpose since they refuse to even look at the evidence you're talking about
Somebody is still butthurt from Mvp Squirtle finals.
Deal with it bro!
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On August 21 2012 16:29 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:22 snafoo wrote:
People always say this, remember when Mvp went to MLG Anaheim last year? Everyone said he was slumping hard(because his last tournament placing 1 month prior was ro32) and was barely even a favorite to take his group and we all know how that went - he destroyed it.
People judge so much based on so few games, Mvp could be doing significantly better than Taeja in practice for all we know, the only reason more people think of Taeja lately is because he's competing in more tournaments.
GSL is a _HARD_ tournament, not just because of the skill level, but also because you have one chance, if you have an off day noone sees you play for another month or two unless you compete in other events.
I mean, hell, Taeja lost to some guy called Balloon in OSL qualifiers - if he hadn't of competed in any events since then would people be raving so much?
Taeja's really really good obviously, but this flavour of the month "best player" thing is so frustrating to watch/read. balloon walkover taeja
Are you sure? It says 2-0 on liquipedia. Why did taeja miss it? Leveltory shows WW as well and they usually go with BYE if it is a walkover.
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On August 21 2012 16:30 OnFiRe888 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:26 Dodgin wrote:The worst thing is that you didn't even watch IEM and you're trying to comment on Mvp's skill level or recent games, It's so ignorant. That feeling when you realize you just wasted a lot of time arguing with someone with no purpose since they refuse to even look at the evidence you're talking about If arguing with me is so frustrating, than don't do it. You have no obligation, the only person that is affected is me and you, and in the end, you are the one that ends pissed off. Learn to let things go, people can be wrong. If people in LR threads want to say JD is the best player in the world, let them, it's their problem and belief. And in the end, you don't actually think you will sway his opinion do you? There's no such thing as winning and losing on an internet forum, so there's no need to get so worked up about something that does not portray a winner or loser.
I'm not worked up at all It's just insulting to a player to comment so ignorantly on them without watching their games to be able to make a proper judgement. Everyone who watched IEM knows Mvp is back in shape and able to play long macro games and win again.
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EPT
