Dreamhack Summer [Day 2] - Page 314

Robje

Netherlands1044 Posts

June 18 2012 09:40 GMT

#6261

On June 18 2012 17:33 Avicularia wrote:

Yea, all 3 koreans, Stephano and Nerchio. The lower half is onlt Naniwa that didn't play that well:p
Also poor Mana, at the start he needs to play vs Zerg, and later (if he wins) vs good korean.

You seem to have forgotten Ret in the lower bracket

Avicularia

540 Posts

June 18 2012 09:43 GMT

#6262

On June 18 2012 18:40 Robje wrote:

Show nested quote +

You seem to have forgotten Ret in the lower bracket

Ret is solid, but not as good as those players.

Sonic Death Monkey

Sweden991 Posts

June 18 2012 09:44 GMT

#6263

On June 18 2012 10:51 Vul wrote:

Show nested quote +

On June 18 2012 10:10 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:

On June 18 2012 09:52 flowSthead wrote:

On June 18 2012 09:46 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:

On June 18 2012 09:34 flowSthead wrote:

On June 18 2012 09:28 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:

On June 18 2012 09:09 flowSthead wrote:

On June 18 2012 08:59 TheBanana wrote:

On June 18 2012 08:57 flowSthead wrote:

On June 18 2012 08:53 TheBanana wrote:
[quote]

A vs B 2-0
C vs D 2-0

A vs C 2-0
D vs B 2-0

C vs D 1-2

How is this not unfair for C?
He went 1-1 against D and actually beat him 3-2, still goes out because he didn't get the free win vs B.

Because he didn't win two best of threes. The map score doesn't matter as much as the best of threes. C didn't play consistently enough. Or D played more strategically by playing poorer strategies so he could face B. Either way, C didn't play well enough when it was all on the line. The map scores don't matter at all.

C played better than D overall.

It's unfair because one player gets a free win and one player gets a sure loss.
No need to overcomplicate that simple fact.

No, C did not play better than D overall. And in any case, your example is pure fantasy. Very rarely does anyone get a "free win", but in either case whether C and D have played each other or not, they have to win twice. Even if A is God and B is shit, A does not have 100% chance to win and B does not have a 0% chance to win. Either can cheese or be cheeseed, or their opponents can be underprepared or tired or sick or playing sloppy. There are a lot of mental factors in the game as well, so it is not impossible for A to drop a best of three or for B to win one. Whatever happens the results to get out of the group remain the same: Win 2 best of threes.

Since we are not discussing the content of the games, your assumptions are impossible. Perhaps C won three close games against D, and D completely dominated the two games that he win. Perhaps C cheesed twice in the 5 games they played and D was unprepared. Perhaps D was not warmed up well enough when they played their first match and had a better showing after he could warm up.

Because we do not know the content of the games, the only thing I can say is that D got out because D won the games he had to win. I cannot say who "deserved" it or who played "better", but D did what he needed to.

Two different systems, both have their drawsbacks. Imagine Huk's group being played GSL style:

Huk>Morrow
Slivko>Stephano

Huk>Slivko
Stephano>Morrow

Stephano>Slivko

Huk and Stephano advances because Huk didn't have to play Stephano. Is this more fair than having everyone meet everyone? No. Huk got eliminated because he lost 2-0 vs Stephano and dropped maps against both Morrow and Slivko. Stephano and Slivko performed better than Huk and thus Huk was eliminated.

I think the GSL version is more fair because the emphasis is clearer. The goal is to win best of threes no matter how many maps you win or lose. The Dreamhack system is less fair because not everyone has to play every map. If player A wins 2 maps vs player B no matter what, but one of those times he wins 2-0 and another time he wins 2-1, and then he gets eliminated because of that, I call that unfair.

I think if you are going to do groups like Dreamhack where it is round robin, then there should be tie breakers. I think counting maps won and lost is silly. They should do 1 map tiebreakers like at IEM.

I honestly don't get your argument. It's more fair because it's more clear? I agree it is more clear and probably more viewer friendly. It will also be percieved to be more fair, because (in the above example) viewers won't have to see that Huk in fact would've lost to Stephano. I don't see how that has anything to do with actual fairness though. All players know the rules of the game, win as many matches and maps as you can and if you perform better than two of your opponents, you advance.

Neither do I get your map argument. In GSL there's an 8 map pool. Does that mean all maps have to be played for it to be fair?

My point is that the goal is to win best of threes in the GSL and it is fair because everyone has to win the same number of best of threes. In DreamHack you could win the same number of best of threes but your map differences are the deciding factor if a tie occurs. I think that is unfair because you are confusing the issue by bringing maps in to it.

If Stephano beats Huk, Huk beats Slivko, and Slivko beats Stephano, then to me it doesn't matter if Huk won 2-1 while everyone else won 2-0. The situation is a three way tie. There should be a tiebreaker. You are arguing that Slivko and Stephano performed better than Huk because they won more often 2-0 and lost more often 1-2. But that doesn't make sense to me. The performance here is in best of threes. Huk won as many best of threes as the other players. He performed just as well.

Maybe if they played a tiebreaker Huk will lose twice to Stephano and Slivko and they both make it out. I am ok with that. I'm not a Huk fanboy and think he deserves to get out. I think none of the three players deserve to get out based on performances because there was a tie situation. Two should get out based on a tiebreaker.

And yes, those are the rules so within the Dreamhack system, this is fair. But the discussion at the moment is whether the system itself is fair, which I am arguing it is not.

Alright, I see what you're getting at. I see map score as a good tiebreaker when the amount of won BO3 fails to set players apart. I don't see why map score shouldn't matter, winning maps is a sign of SC2 skill. Losing 1-2 is a sign that the player was closer in skill than when losing 0-2 (just like in many other sport like soccer etc). I guess our opinions differ in this regard.

I still don't get why you think the GSL system is more fair because, as I pointed out, players can advance simply by being lucky to avoid a certain opponent. That system does still not solve the problem of unfairness, it just sweeps it under the rug by not allowing all players to face eachother.

Like I said in my last edit, I can see the benefits of the GSL system and I quite like it myelf, I just don't think it's any more fair than the system used in Dreamhack.

I think that since this format is so likely to produce ties at 2-1, they should definitely have a Tie Breaker BO3. That may take too much time for a tournament that starts with 128 players, so I think it's fair to do it based on map score for the RO128 and RO64.

But IMO there's no good reason not to have a Tie Breaker in the RO32 to see who advances to the playoffs.

If you do that you're probably only adding a handful of extra BO3s, but they would be exciting games with good players from the top 32 and the drama of a win or go home scenario.

I'm all for more games being played, but I don't think this is a feasible solution. The last games in Huk's groups was being played around 1am in Sweden and we would need three more BO3s being played as tiebreakers (and it's not even sure those would break the tie).

The tournament schedule is already stacked, the only way in which to implement this is by decreasing the number of participants. It would also introduce a whole lot more variance in the schedule, which is the (imo good) reason tournaments genereally won't use that kind of system.

Motoorhead

Poland67 Posts

June 18 2012 09:44 GMT

#6264

On June 18 2012 17:12 Benjamin99 wrote:
Btw is this the first tournament for Nerchio and Mana where they are full time pros?

Nerchio is full time student.
MaNa postoponed college for one year, so he is "full time pro" now.

iMonAhorsE

Germany275 Posts

June 18 2012 09:46 GMT

#6265

wrong thread

Sonic Death Monkey

Sweden991 Posts

June 18 2012 09:48 GMT

#6266

Gievn the brackets, I don't see Stephano or Naniwa making the finals. Stephanos side of the bracket is just sick and Naniwa will (possibly only) play his worst match-up.

I think Hero vs Sase may be the best bet at this point (but Sase may go out as early in RO16, I think Ret has a decent shot against him).

Tidus Mino

United Kingdom1108 Posts

June 18 2012 09:56 GMT

#6267

M|Stephano [2 : 1] MyM.MvP.Keen
Acer.Nerchio [1 : 2] ROX.KIS.BratOK
Liquid'HerO [2 : 1] Liquid'Taeja
Mouz.MaNa [0 : 2] Ai.Cytoplasm
Quantic.NaNiWa [1 : 2] ROX.KIS.sLivko
mTw.Dimaga [0 : 2] Fightline'Protosser
Quantic.SaSe [1 : 2] Liquid'ret
ROX.KIS.fraer [2 : 1] mCon.Harstem

M|Stephano [2 : 1] FXOBratOK
Liquid'HerO [2 : 0] Ai.Cytoplasm
ROX.KIS.sLivko [1 : 2] Fightline'Protosser
Liquid'ret [2 : 0] ROX.KIS.fraer

Liquid'HerO [2 : 1] M|Stephano
Fightline'Protosser [2 : 1] Liquid'ret

Liquid'HerO [3 : 1] Fightline'Protosser

They are my predictions

Dgotto

Russian Federation210 Posts

June 18 2012 10:00 GMT

#6268

brat_ok is not roxkis, he;s in team FXO -_-

Arnstein

Norway3381 Posts

June 18 2012 10:01 GMT

#6269

Koreans imba! 8/128(and not 8 of the best either) started out, and in RO16 3/16 are from Korea! So about 6% Koreans in the beginning, and about 19% in RO16.

Sonic Death Monkey

Sweden991 Posts

June 18 2012 10:02 GMT

#6270

Anyone know when day 3 starts?

Arnstein

Norway3381 Posts

June 18 2012 10:05 GMT

#6271

On Upcoming Events on the TL calendar it says in 1 hour and 40 mins.

Ryps

Romania2740 Posts

June 18 2012 10:06 GMT

#6272

On June 18 2012 19:01 Arnstein wrote:
Koreans imba! 8/128(and not 8 of the best either) started out, and in RO16 3/16 are from Korea! So about 6% Koreans in the beginning, and about 19% in RO16.

Well by that logic only 3/128 are dutch, and in RO16 there is 1. So thats 33.3% dutch qualified ( or less depending if you count the amount of players in RO16) in RO16. Woah Go Netherlands !

wireke

Belgium122 Posts

June 18 2012 10:17 GMT

#6273

On June 18 2012 19:06 Ryps wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well by that logic only 3/128 are dutch, and in RO16 there is 1. So thats 33.3% dutch qualified ( or less depending if you count the amount of players in RO16) in RO16. Woah Go Netherlands !

2 dutch players in the RO16. Not 1

Arnstein

Norway3381 Posts

June 18 2012 10:21 GMT

#6274

On June 18 2012 19:06 Ryps wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well by that logic only 3/128 are dutch, and in RO16 there is 1. So thats 33.3% dutch qualified ( or less depending if you count the amount of players in RO16) in RO16. Woah Go Netherlands !

Just remember that I said 19% of the people in RO16 are Koreans, not 19% of the Koreans that started got into RO16. 37.5% of the Koreans that started got into RO16. Just so you don't confuse the numbers.

Edit: and yes, that's good statistics for the Netherlands as well, especially if it's 2 people in RO16, as mentioned above.

Jusba

Finland189 Posts

June 18 2012 10:24 GMT

#6275

Wow, Protosser was playing like a mad man o.O.
He has always been top Finnish player but he usually doesn't seem to have time to play. That guy as a full time player could be the second Stephano imo.

shad321

Poland9 Posts

June 18 2012 10:25 GMT

#6276

By that logic 3 / 128 players were from Poland ( about 2% ) , and in ro16 there are 2 / 16 ( 12,5% ) so chances increased 6,25 times compared to Koreans 3,16 times )

But statistically if i'm with my dog on the walk we both have 3 legs :D

bikefrog

Norway451 Posts

June 18 2012 10:26 GMT

#6277

On June 18 2012 19:01 Arnstein wrote:
Koreans imba! 8/128(and not 8 of the best either) started out, and in RO16 3/16 are from Korea! So about 6% Koreans in the beginning, and about 19% in RO16.

Hey, take a look at this:
Just 0,78% Stephano in the beginning and in RO16 6,25% are Stephano!! Stephano so imba!

ramon

Germany4842 Posts

June 18 2012 10:28 GMT

#6278

that TL teamkill, pretty sad right now

Olli

Austria24422 Posts

June 18 2012 10:29 GMT

#6279

Oh we're throwing statistics around?
100% of the matches Hero participated in were won by Hero. 100% of 4gates against him were held off with 2 gates.

Arnstein

Norway3381 Posts

June 18 2012 10:33 GMT

#6280

On June 18 2012 19:26 bikefrog wrote:

Show nested quote +

Hey, take a look at this:
Just 0,78% Stephano in the beginning and in RO16 6,25% are Stephano!! Stephano so imba!

Yes, it's really good to be one of 16 players to get this far in the tournament of 128 players! I agree that Stephano is definitely one of the imbaest players out there!

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