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So funny how this thread goes, Day 1 thread was the same about stephano getting overhyped
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On June 18 2012 17:31 Hall0wed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 17:16 m0ck wrote:On June 18 2012 17:06 Hall0wed wrote:On June 18 2012 17:02 m0ck wrote:On June 18 2012 16:45 Hall0wed wrote:On June 18 2012 16:30 AxionSteel wrote:On June 18 2012 14:37 Hall0wed wrote:On June 18 2012 13:55 Ace.Xile wrote:On June 18 2012 13:51 mordk wrote:On June 18 2012 13:50 quannguyen wrote:Seriously wtf? Teamkill for HerO AGAIN? And this time it's Taeja of all people. Man I think Liquid's luck in Dreamhack is the worst of all teams  On the flipside, winner of that series seems likely to take the tournament, so it could be pretty good for liquid overall I'd say they'd have a chance if it weren't for the almost certainty that they will have to face stephano, and if they somehow manage to beat him, then likely naniwa in the finals. lol @ overrating those 2. Hero can have his way with either of those guys with ease. If Taeja is playing well then he would certainly beat them also. Anyway most people don't think Stephano will even get out of the RO8 it seems and if Keen is on his game he won't even get through 1 round. And Naniwa will fall to some zerg (ANY of them) over on his side of the bracket. You've already got the excuses piled up don't you. Anytime Stephano wins vs a top Korean it's just because they played really bad People overrate stephano, but you, like Aeroplaneoverthesea just hate foreign players  I don't understand why you think you can act like you know me. Players play bad sometime, sc2 is a random ass game. I call a lot of things bad play because I watch so much starcraft that I know what good play looks like and I have very high standards. Its easy to tell when a player is playing bad or when they are playing exceptionally well in my eyes. I didn't watch all of yesterday but even some of those games I don't think Hero was playing very well and if his opponents were better he definitely would have lost. And I like some foreigners a great deal, but for foreign players it comes down to personality a lot of the time because in general they just get overhyped when it comes to their play. I used to always cheer for foreigners in GSL but they always disappointed so I just gave up on them, that was a year ago. Still a big fan of all of the liquid guys and some others though. On June 18 2012 16:45 polyphonyEX wrote:
^ I can tell that you're a fan of liquid I don't think those predictions were too crazy. I don't see Naniwa taking out Dimaga though and there is pretty much no chance in hell that Ret beats Hero. You're acting as if playing well or not is unrelated to the opponent a player is facing. When stephano beat parting 2-0, squirtle 4-1 or MC 2-0 (or huk yesterday), his opponents looked bad. But the common factor is stephano.. Thats not true because I thought Parting and Squirtle played pretty meh the entire weekend, or atleast from what I saw because I was busy that weekend so I didn't catch every game. And I don't know why you mentioned MC because MC usually beats Stephano. -_-;; Okay, let's say you are right and stephano caught his opponents when they were out of shape. Are you ready to give shim the same leeway? He isn't playing particularly well at the moment after being on the road for more than a month. If hero beats stephano, is that a reflection of stephanos level of skill or his form? You see what I'm getting at. My charge is that your reasoning goes something like this: When stephano loses, it is because he's overrated and "has been found out". When his (Korean) opponents lose, it is because they aren't playing well (although they are capable of much more). I guess I'll have to wait and see the games. I don't think Stephano is bad at all, I just don't like his personality or his fanboys. But what I expect to happen if Stephano and Hero play is that Stephano will do his normal stuff and Hero will bounce around everywhere and slowly dismantle Stephano just like every other game between them that I've seen (besides Blizz cup, but Hero truly did play horribly in every single game that day and the very next day he 4-0'd Stephano on stream). In that case I would say they both played well and Hero outplayed Stephano. If Stephano does stupid random all-ins or other crap like going mutas and losing a basetrade then I'd likely say Stephano played bad. If Hero does some dumb openers then I would just say thats bad play. There are way too many little things that I look at in games so its impossible for me to tell you right now if I think someone might play bad. Like I already said I have high standards of "good" play so its silly to get worked up over whether or not I think someone plays well. -_-
I understand that you dislike his personality, we all are disappointed sometimes when he forfeit or when he is half drunk during tournament. But almost every tournament he goes he performed very well, it's like almost always the only non Korean in the top 8 and all Koreans cheers his talent. They both are amazing player in this match up and it actually can goes either way, I expect great games from those two (if they actually meet).
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On June 18 2012 09:20 TheBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 09:09 flowSthead wrote:On June 18 2012 08:59 TheBanana wrote:On June 18 2012 08:57 flowSthead wrote:On June 18 2012 08:53 TheBanana wrote:On June 18 2012 08:47 flowSthead wrote:On June 18 2012 08:40 TheBanana wrote:On June 18 2012 08:33 Ammanas wrote:
I still don't understand why aren't all the tournaments with group stages using GSL format groups, rather than round robin. In that format it can never happen that player only loses once and is eliminated... Because the GSL-group system is unfair. Example. Player A is God and beats everyone. Player B is horrible and loses to everyone. Player C and Player D are exactly the same. C and D goes 1-1 (2-1, 1-2) against each other. The guy drawing player B advances and never faces player A. That is not the way it would work: A wins vs B C wins vs D A wins vs C and A advances D wins vs B and B drops out C and D have a rematch that decides who goes on. Neither of them have an advantage. A still gets out, B still drops out. In what kind of scenario would A being God and B being terrible give an unfair advantage? You have to win twice to get out, no matter what. You have to lose twice to drop out, no matter what. A vs B 2-0 C vs D 2-0 A vs C 2-0 D vs B 2-0 C vs D 1-2 How is this not unfair for C? He went 1-1 against D and actually beat him 3-2, still goes out because he didn't get the free win vs B. Because he didn't win two best of threes. The map score doesn't matter as much as the best of threes. C didn't play consistently enough. Or D played more strategically by playing poorer strategies so he could face B. Either way, C didn't play well enough when it was all on the line. The map scores don't matter at all. C played better than D overall. It's unfair because one player gets a free win and one player gets a sure loss. No need to overcomplicate that simple fact. No, C did not play better than D overall. And in any case, your example is pure fantasy. Very rarely does anyone get a "free win", but in either case whether C and D have played each other or not, they have to win twice. Even if A is God and B is shit, A does not have 100% chance to win and B does not have a 0% chance to win. Either can cheese or be cheeseed, or their opponents can be underprepared or tired or sick or playing sloppy. There are a lot of mental factors in the game as well, so it is not impossible for A to drop a best of three or for B to win one. Whatever happens the results to get out of the group remain the same: Win 2 best of threes. Since we are not discussing the content of the games, your assumptions are impossible. Perhaps C won three close games against D, and D completely dominated the two games that he win. Perhaps C cheesed twice in the 5 games they played and D was unprepared. Perhaps D was not warmed up well enough when they played their first match and had a better showing after he could warm up. Because we do not know the content of the games, the only thing I can say is that D got out because D won the games he had to win. I cannot say who "deserved" it or who played "better", but D did what he needed to. Every game matters. It's my example, C played better overall, went out because D got a free win. Actually player B was disqualified and never showed. And if C and D played a third time C would smash D hard. How much do I need to tweek the example to make you see the point? How about, forget everything, and answer just this question: Player X gets a free win. Player Z does not. Is that equal?
you have to consider whats best mu for D and C. yes maybe C is better then D head to head but D beaten A and B while C didnt. so how is it fair if C's best match up is D and D's weakest mu is C. but overall they are equally skilled. would it be fair to eliminate D using that way? i think not.
tl'dr stop crying, be a man and get over it!
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When does the day 3 start?
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People who say Stephano is overrated are retarded. He's owning koreans left and right, even some of the very best, and as a foreigner who hasn't even trained in korea yet, that is quite an achievement. Stephano is freaking amazing.
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On June 18 2012 17:52 Funkydonky wrote:
When does the day 3 start?
According to Millenium's website, 2.00 PM (CEST).
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Yay, let's have the Stephano fanboy vs Stephano hater keyboard war again..
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On June 18 2012 18:00 aerolol wrote:
Yay, let's have the Stephano fanboy vs Stephano hater keyboard war again..
How can ppl hate Stephano? I don't get it T_T
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On June 18 2012 18:03 TOCHMY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 18:00 aerolol wrote:
Yay, let's have the Stephano fanboy vs Stephano hater keyboard war again.. How can ppl hate Stephano? I don't get it T_T
They don't think he takes the game seriously enough. -_-
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On June 18 2012 18:03 TOCHMY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 18:00 aerolol wrote:
Yay, let's have the Stephano fanboy vs Stephano hater keyboard war again.. How can ppl hate Stephano? I don't get it T_T
Personally I think it's because a lot of people don't like Americans.
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On June 18 2012 18:06 Fanta_Rules wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 18:03 TOCHMY wrote:On June 18 2012 18:00 aerolol wrote:
Yay, let's have the Stephano fanboy vs Stephano hater keyboard war again.. How can ppl hate Stephano? I don't get it T_T They don't think he takes the game seriously enough. -_-
so why nobody is hating the politicians...?! oh.. wait :D
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On June 18 2012 18:07 Mapsterthesaint wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 18:03 TOCHMY wrote:On June 18 2012 18:00 aerolol wrote:
Yay, let's have the Stephano fanboy vs Stephano hater keyboard war again.. How can ppl hate Stephano? I don't get it T_T Personally I think it's because a lot of people don't like Americans.
Please be trollbait, ppl cannot be this stupid
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Austria24422 Posts
On June 18 2012 18:07 aTo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 18:06 Fanta_Rules wrote:On June 18 2012 18:03 TOCHMY wrote:On June 18 2012 18:00 aerolol wrote:
Yay, let's have the Stephano fanboy vs Stephano hater keyboard war again.. How can ppl hate Stephano? I don't get it T_T They don't think he takes the game seriously enough. -_- so why nobody is hating the politicians...?! oh.. wait :D
Now that Van der Bellen is gone, there's nobody left!!! And I say that only because it says "Austria" next to your name :D
I wonder if Naniwa can beat Slivko.
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On June 18 2012 18:07 Mapsterthesaint wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 18:03 TOCHMY wrote:On June 18 2012 18:00 aerolol wrote:
Yay, let's have the Stephano fanboy vs Stephano hater keyboard war again.. How can ppl hate Stephano? I don't get it T_T Personally I think it's because a lot of people don't like Americans.
Nah, it's because he is black!
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On June 18 2012 18:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 18:07 aTo wrote:On June 18 2012 18:06 Fanta_Rules wrote:On June 18 2012 18:03 TOCHMY wrote:On June 18 2012 18:00 aerolol wrote:
Yay, let's have the Stephano fanboy vs Stephano hater keyboard war again.. How can ppl hate Stephano? I don't get it T_T They don't think he takes the game seriously enough. -_- so why nobody is hating the politicians...?! oh.. wait :D Now that Van der Bellen is gone, there's nobody left!!! And I say that only because it says "Austria" next to your name :D I wonder if Naniwa can beat Slivko.
:D
well btt - naniwa or stephano gona do it imo
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Austria24422 Posts
OHSHIT GSL is right now. What a day.
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On June 18 2012 17:18 Elean wrote:
This ro16 bracket is so unbalanced, the upper half is so much stronger. Naniwa should get in the final...
I actually thought it looked good for Sase.
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On June 18 2012 18:11 fanvadmeck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 18:07 Mapsterthesaint wrote:On June 18 2012 18:03 TOCHMY wrote:On June 18 2012 18:00 aerolol wrote:
Yay, let's have the Stephano fanboy vs Stephano hater keyboard war again.. How can ppl hate Stephano? I don't get it T_T Personally I think it's because a lot of people don't like Americans. Please be trollbait, ppl cannot be this stupid
what do you mean?
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On June 18 2012 18:11 fanvadmeck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 18:07 Mapsterthesaint wrote:On June 18 2012 18:03 TOCHMY wrote:On June 18 2012 18:00 aerolol wrote:
Yay, let's have the Stephano fanboy vs Stephano hater keyboard war again.. How can ppl hate Stephano? I don't get it T_T Personally I think it's because a lot of people don't like Americans. Please be trollbait, ppl cannot be this stupid
Of course it's trollbait, now you're making yourself look stupid.
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On June 18 2012 10:15 bennyaus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 10:10 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Alright, I see what you're getting at. I see map score as a good tiebreaker when the amount of won BO3 fails to set players apart. I don't see why map score shouldn't matter, winning maps is a sign of SC2 skill. Losing 1-2 is a sign that the player was closer in skill than when losing 0-2 (just like in many other sport like soccer etc). I guess our opinions differ in this regard.
I still don't get why you think the GSL system is more fair because, as I pointed out, players can advance simply by being lucky to avoid a certain opponent. That system does still not solve the problem of unfairness, it just sweeps it under the rug by not allowing all players to face eachother.
Like I said in my last edit, I can see the benefits of the GSL system and I quite like it myelf, I just don't think it's any more fair than the system used in Dreamhack. I don't think that the system is unfair. Just that HuK is unlucky based on the group he got (compared to some way way easier groups), and he still did well enough to go through in a number of other groups... It is sad that such a good personality and quality player is eliminated at this point, but the same goes for others. However, winning one game in a Bo3 (2-1) versus going 2-0, means next to nothing in my opinion, at this level of Starcraft. Almost any "pro" player can take a single set off another player given the right luck. GSL system is considerably fairer, albeit it still has some minor unfairness as it implies that if a > b, b > c, then a > c, which is also not true in Starcraft. At the end of the day there has to be some way to differentiate the players and there is no perfect method except for playing BoX (where X tends to infinity or something) in a round robin format.
And winning one game extra also has a really small impact in the Dreamhack system. What is compared is the aggregate number of wins and losses after three BO3s. For example, player A and B may both go 2-1 in BO3s, but player A can go 5-2 in map score whereas player B goes 4-4. Does this not say a good amount about their skill? More than simply looking at their BO3 score? If you think winning one game is so unimportant, if a BO3 ends in a 2-1 win, maybe we should let them play the match again? After all, winning with just one game wouldn't show a significant difference in skill. Let's not kid ourselves, winning one game extra often has just as big impact in the GSL system.
I think it's really simple, both systems are fair according to most definitions of the word (unbiased, impartial, consistent with rules and logic). When it comes to which system will favor the more skilled player, I think it's clear that it's the system having most games being played (in this case the Dreamhack system). Having more games played gives a bigger sample from which to determine who's the better player. Ideally we'd have a ton of games being played, but because of time constraints and it being very taxing on the players, that's not possible.
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EPT
