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On May 27 2012 18:04 Rube_Juice wrote:
Oh my god i wanted JD to win so bad, couldn't bear to see him lose again and have his spirit crushed. JD and Flash won today and the world makes sense, at least for now. I can go to bed happy now.
Same here bro :D
So happy for Jaedong and Flash ! Hope it will give them more confidence at the MLG in June :D
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On May 27 2012 18:05 ivirj wrote:
Is it me or jaedong was maxed out or almost maxed out (190supply) at 11 minutes?
He also lost some units to good ff's before that if i'm not mistaken so it was 11 min max basically.
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On May 27 2012 18:06 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 18:04 sevia wrote:On May 27 2012 18:01 blade55555 wrote:
1. Roach warren was late agreed, but when you see a robo you don't need it super fast
I disagree with this, there are definitely builds that do an ultra-fast +1 zealot push and get a robo at the same time. One of them was in the Haypro replay pack posted on teamliquidpro.com recently. Lizzy might not be a perfect SC2 player but I think he's capable of something like that, especially on a map with a hard-to-defend third. Maybe he counted chronos on the core like a pro, because warpgate finished too late for this.
That's just silly to expect right now.Anyway, I guess the world is working like it should again, Flash soon to be Ace and Jaedong/Flash finally winning.
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I wasn't paying close attention to the game, but what's all this talk about Jaedong not having his units up fast enough? I thought his ovies scouted Lizzy's base pretty thoroughly and knew Lizzy was going for a 3rd rather than 2-base pressure. Or did I miss something?
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Nice to see Jaedong getting the win. Wish we could have seen the ace be against Flash but it is obvious that Lizzy is the current Ace for SC2 on KT.
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United States4796 Posts
Jaedong played quite well. I hope this ushers in the end of SC2 snipers. Not that my hope will become any semblance of reality.
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So glad JD came in with a solid build. Much improved from his last ZvP.
It's going to be interesting to see the Kespa players continue to get better at SC2 as the season goes on.
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On May 27 2012 17:57 trifecta wrote:
the fire is back in his eyes (mixed with a bit of wtf is going on)
QFT!
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On May 27 2012 17:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 17:24 Azarkon wrote:On May 27 2012 17:17 StorkHwaiting wrote:
People are nuts saying JD was way ahead. Or else they're just clueless about ZvZ. When Jaedong's mutas were taking out CH's third, CH was already massing infestors. When CH had rebuilt his third and JD was just starting to tech up to infestor, CH already had 8 infestors out. That is a ridiculous advantage.
All JD did was deny the third and kill some ovies. In exchange for what? 1K+ in gas? CH dumped all that in infestors instead, so when the fight actually came, he had enough energy to spit out 30-40 infested terrans and fungal AND had a much higher hydra count.
JD did some good moves with the queen sniping and trapping that initial roach pressure with mass ling, but going muta was a horrible mistake. Muta along with double upgrades along with roach tunneling claws was just suicide. That's way too much gas being spent on shit that's not infestors. Infestors > all in ZvZ. Simple as that. Violet played mutas vs. Stephano in MLG Spring Arena 2 and crushed him playing roach infestor. The idea behind mutas in ZvZ is that they give you map control and the ability to take a third while denying your opponent's third. The fast infestor player has to stay on two bases until he gets infestors, at which time you, the muta player, is on three bases with six gases and is transitioning to roach infestor yourself. Your infestors are behind his in timing, but you're going to have a higher roach count due to better economy, which carries you into the late-game. Jaedong's transitions were way too late. He was floating 2k minerals because he took the gases on the third late and had no gas for the units he wanted to build. Your analysis has so many gaping holes in it, I don't even know where to begin but I guess I'll try once. JD had map control with ling/banes. Not roaches. AKA he's not going to transition from muta to a higher roach count since he had no roaches to begin with. You're talking about a completely different opening and transition than what JD did in that game. The build you're talking about is going mutas to counter a roach timing attack where you throw down a few spines, hold with spines and mutas, drive his roaches back and kill many of them, deny his third and pick off ovies. There's no way for him to get his third back because he sunk so much gas into a +1 up, speed, and roaches, so his infestors are going to be too slow to defend the mutas. By the time they're out and fungaling mutas, your third's been up for 3-4 minutes and saturated and your roach count is way up. That is NOT what happened in this game whatsoever.
No, the build I'm talking about is Violet's opening in every ZvZ, not contingent on his opponent going +1 roach attack. The build is solid because it is able to deal with both aggressive and defensive play. Roaches do not shoot up. Ling baneling do not shoot up. Queens do shoot up but a Zerg is not able to afford walking the 3-4 queens needed to defend against 7-8 mutas to his third. Preemptive spores do work, but it's a gamble that a lot of Zergs do not want to make because it puts them behind vs. builds that don't involve mutas.
What JD did was go ling/bane for pressure and map control. He got countered by roach DEFENSE, not a timing attack. After his bane/ling pressure was blocked, he went straight into mutas and spammed out as many of them as he could while building zero roaches. He spent a long time running around sniping ovies and spore crawlers, eventually took down the third, and then started his own expo.
In the meantime. CH just massed infestors on 2 base gas, extended his creep so his queens could defend against mutas, and calmly retook his third, dropping a bunch more spores to defend it from air. JD then dropped 550 gas on double ups, roach speed, and burrow. ALL of this before he ever put down an infestor pit or made any roaches.
So, basically, JD spent 1-1100 gas on mutas, 550 on upgrades, and still hadn't built a single roach or infestor. What part of that fits into your strategy of mutas taking map, denying third, and getting ahead in roach count while being slightly behind on infestor timing?
Just no. What happened was that 1600 fking gas JD blew on killing nothing but mineral units and buildings, was spent to buy a shit-ton of infestors for CH. Then CH went ahead and retook his third anyway, since JD couldn't sustain map control, thereby equaling the gas income.
So... CH is sitting on a massive advantage in gas units, has just as many roaches, and then because he's so far ahead, while JD got infestors, CH added on hydras. Then they clashed. JD had spines and half the amount of infestors with barely enough energy for one fungal. CH had max energy double count of infestors, hydras, and same roach count.
And your example of Violet vs Stephano doesn't make any sense because you haven't provided any relevant details. Just saying muta won vs roach/infestor doesn't mean anything. I could go 10 gas muta and beat a 2 gas roach/infestor and then say I won mutas vs roach/infestor.
There's a whole sequence of events that need to happen for the muta strategy you're talking about to play out the way I'm guessing Violet and Stephano's game did. Just saying some random stuff about "Violet's mutas pwnt Roach/infestor" is meaningless.
Jaedong made a lot of mistakes in that game, yes, but I was responding to you saying that infestors > all in ZvZ and that Jaedong going mutas was a terrible mistake. His mistake was not in making mutas, but in not expanding fast enough behind it, and that was obvious from the gas timings on his third.
Imagine that he had gone roaches, instead - CH was then free to take a third while Jaedong teched up to and built roaches, after which CH was simply ahead in the symmetrical mirror, no questions asked. With mutas, Jaedong gained an asymmetrical advantage, which in that game came down to him denying the third and killing a lot of queens and overlords. No, that doesn't prevent CH from making infestors with the gas deficit Jaedong pumped into mutas, but it does slow him down immensely, and not just because he lost minerals, but because of lost income, larvae injection, and supply blocked unit production.
In short, Jaedong did have an advantage that game, but failed to exploit it.
Hell, with 2k minerals and banked larvae he had the ability to throw down a dozen additional spine crawlers, which then makes his decision to counter attack a game winning move.
He lost because of poor execution, which is Jaedong's weakness in a lot of his games.
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On May 27 2012 18:09 Hall0wed wrote:
Nice to see Jaedong getting the win. Wish we could have seen the ace be against Flash but it is obvious that Lizzy is the current Ace for SC2 on KT.
This will not last. It's obvious the superstars are improving at a much faster rate than the specialists. Saw a big difference in JvP in just 1 weeks time. Flash will be ace again soon...
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The Dong was just trolling us. Purposefully throwing the first game so he can make his ace match look more awesome
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I'm glad that Lizzy got done early on in the season. I guess KT was relying on him to close out matches at least for the first half of the season, but now they're gonna have to rethink that. The spectators want to see bigname clashes, not TBLS vs rookies, so I hope we see more teams willing to send out their real ace like Team8 did today.
On another note, I'm surprised we haven't seen this kind of thing more often in Proleague so far. Against relatively inexperienced opponents, powerful strats which are easier to execute than defend (like 1/1/1, Stephano roaches, 7 gate blink all-in etc) should have a pretty high success rate, because these guys obviously have the micro to pull them off.
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On May 27 2012 18:14 Exia0276 wrote:
The Dong was just trolling us. Purposefully throwing the first game so he can make his ace match look more awesome
This logic is brilliance. I need to learn to think like you.
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hmmm when I try to put the VODS in a spoiler it doesn't embed, but otherwise they do. I'll just link the small vod thread I guess.
nvm i figured it out
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On May 27 2012 18:15 FuRong wrote:
I'm glad that Lizzy got done early on in the season. I guess KT was relying on him to close out matches at least for the first half of the season, but now they're gonna have to rethink that. The spectators want to see bigname clashes, not TBLS vs rookies, so I hope we see more teams willing to send out their real ace like Team8 did today.
This doesn't make sense, Jaedong was a rookie once too. The real ace isn't the biggest name you have, it's your best player. If you think it's Lizzy you send him so you have the best chance to win. Also, sending rookies early in the season is the best time to give them experience (the Killer Oz syndrome).
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On May 27 2012 18:17 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 18:15 FuRong wrote:
I'm glad that Lizzy got done early on in the season. I guess KT was relying on him to close out matches at least for the first half of the season, but now they're gonna have to rethink that. The spectators want to see bigname clashes, not TBLS vs rookies, so I hope we see more teams willing to send out their real ace like Team8 did today. This doesn't make sense, Jaedong was a rookie once too. The real ace isn't the biggest name you have, it's your best player. If you think it's Lizzy you send him so you have the best chance to win. Also, sending rookies early in the season is the best time to give them experience (the Killer Oz syndrome).
Your best player may not always have the mental strength and nerves to go for the ace match though. Experience matters too.
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On May 27 2012 18:15 FuRong wrote:
I'm glad that Lizzy got done early on in the season. I guess KT was relying on him to close out matches at least for the first half of the season, but now they're gonna have to rethink that. The spectators want to see bigname clashes, not TBLS vs rookies, so I hope we see more teams willing to send out their real ace like Team8 did today.
On another note, I'm surprised we haven't see this kind of thing more often in Proleague so far. Against relatively inexperienced opponents, powerful strats which are easier to execute than defend (like 1/1/1, Stephano roaches, 7 gate blink all-in etc) should have a pretty high success rate, because these guys obviously have the micro to pull them off.
We haven't seen many big timing attack builds because players are still learning basic macro games. It takes 100s of games to refine a cheese/timing attack, which at this stage in the learning process is a waste of time. But as shown today they are starting to do them, expect more as time goes on.
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On May 27 2012 18:18 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 18:17 oBlade wrote:On May 27 2012 18:15 FuRong wrote:
I'm glad that Lizzy got done early on in the season. I guess KT was relying on him to close out matches at least for the first half of the season, but now they're gonna have to rethink that. The spectators want to see bigname clashes, not TBLS vs rookies, so I hope we see more teams willing to send out their real ace like Team8 did today. This doesn't make sense, Jaedong was a rookie once too. The real ace isn't the biggest name you have, it's your best player. If you think it's Lizzy you send him so you have the best chance to win. Also, sending rookies early in the season is the best time to give them experience (the Killer Oz syndrome). Your best player may not always have the mental strength and nerves to go for the ace match though. Experience matters too.
Which is what they are prepaing him for to get over by playing him in both.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TzO8q.jpg)
