It's dissapointing btw how little attention the sc2 crowd is paying to these matches. Skt vs CJ lr with less than 30 pages? Guess they got scared away from the bad quality.
Edit: and sayle with 1.5k viewers while he had like 5-6k one week ago.
On May 27 2012 14:48 Steveling wrote: It's dissapointing btw how little attention the sc2 crowd is paying to these matches. Skt vs CJ lr with less than 30 pages? Guess they got scared away from the bad quality.
And Red Bull Battleground that is still running. Their streams pull like 20k people in total (although it should be 10k people that open two streams).
On May 27 2012 14:48 Steveling wrote: It's dissapointing btw how little attention the sc2 crowd is paying to these matches. Skt vs CJ lr with less than 30 pages? Guess they got scared away from the bad quality.
On May 27 2012 14:48 Steveling wrote: It's dissapointing btw how little attention the sc2 crowd is paying to these matches. Skt vs CJ lr with less than 30 pages? Guess they got scared away from the bad quality.
On May 27 2012 14:48 Steveling wrote: It's dissapointing btw how little attention the sc2 crowd is paying to these matches. Skt vs CJ lr with less than 30 pages? Guess they got scared away from the bad quality.
So umm... Flash vs. Jaedong SC2 match please? God it better happen. I'm staying awake in case it does. So I don't want to have stayed up til 5 am for nothing.
On May 27 2012 15:11 DoomsVille wrote: So umm... Flash vs. Jaedong SC2 match please? God it better happen. I'm staying awake in case it does. So I don't want to have stayed up til 5 am for nothing.
Fortunately VODs are free, so you can just watch later...
On May 27 2012 15:11 DoomsVille wrote: So umm... Flash vs. Jaedong SC2 match please? God it better happen. I'm staying awake in case it does. So I don't want to have stayed up til 5 am for nothing.
Fortunately VODs are free, so you can just watch later...
On May 27 2012 16:04 forsooth wrote: Why are they so scared of the camera?
Every korean girl does that. EVERY SINGLE ONE!!!
Some say they should be in school. Some say they dont want ppl to know they are there. And some just think they are just shy.
Point 1: Shouldn't the dudes be in school too? or do guys not care lmao Point 2: this one makes sense. guess girls are embarassed for being into esports or something? Point 3: nahhhhhh
On May 27 2012 16:04 forsooth wrote: Why are they so scared of the camera?
Every korean girl does that. EVERY SINGLE ONE!!!
Some say they should be in school. Some say they dont want ppl to know they are there. And some just think they are just shy.
Point 1: Shouldn't the dudes be in school too? or do guys not care lmao Point 2: this one makes sense. guess girls are embarassed for being into esports or something? Point 3: nahhhhhh
Alot of BWs Demographic is middle school girls. maybe majority. Someone can correct me if im wrong tho.
On May 27 2012 16:26 KingRajesh wrote: This is a boring game...
No it wasn't...
Zerg was down at the beginning with that first push, and the game was basically over, but the P just didn't roll into him, even though he could have just gone and killed him.
Glad to see some SC2 next, hopefully these games are better.
On May 27 2012 16:04 forsooth wrote: Why are they so scared of the camera?
Every korean girl does that. EVERY SINGLE ONE!!!
Some say they should be in school. Some say they dont want ppl to know they are there. And some just think they are just shy.
Point 1: Shouldn't the dudes be in school too? or do guys not care lmao Point 2: this one makes sense. guess girls are embarassed for being into esports or something? Point 3: nahhhhhh
Alot of BWs Demographic is middle school girls. maybe majority. Someone can correct me if im wrong tho.
On May 27 2012 16:31 TheBJ wrote: Ofcourse , reavers have that great "bang" effect than actually brings excitement. Collosi are seriously the only thing i hate about sc2
What if you had Colossi, but replaced their lasers with Reaver Scarabs? Wouldn't that be something interesting to see...
On May 27 2012 16:25 Belha wrote: Bw PvZ is so so much better, interesting and back and forth than in Sc2 u.u
reavers.
BW XvX is so much better, more interesting, and back and forth than in sc2.
I actually thought Hoejja could have won that game, at one point he was only 30 food down but he threw away a bunch of lurks and defilers while only killing like an archon and five goons. Would have been a sick comeback actually.
On May 27 2012 16:31 TheBJ wrote: Ofcourse , reavers have that great "bang" effect than actually brings excitement. Collosi are seriously the only thing i hate about sc2
Colossi really are the worst unit. I'm fine if they keep the mothership in HotS as long as they get rid of the boring game-killing a-move machine that is the colossus.
On May 27 2012 16:26 KingRajesh wrote: This is a boring game...
No it wasn't...
Zerg was down at the beginning with that first push, and the game was basically over, but the P just didn't roll into him, even though he could have just gone and killed him.
Glad to see some SC2 next, hopefully these games are better.
Explain the poll? That game was mildly entertaining and was tense at some moments. Overall not a boring game.
On May 27 2012 16:26 KingRajesh wrote: This is a boring game...
No it wasn't...
Zerg was down at the beginning with that first push, and the game was basically over, but the P just didn't roll into him, even though he could have just gone and killed him.
Glad to see some SC2 next, hopefully these games are better.
Explain the poll? That game was mildly entertaining and was tense at some moments. Overall not a boring game.
Maybe it's because of the Pokebunny stream or something... I just wasn't feeling it.
Nothing against BW or anything, it just seemed like P could have crushed Z at any time for like 15 min, but he was just drawing out the game. I think he had a 75-100 supply lead or something crazy for the most of the game..
On May 27 2012 16:40 eviltomahawk wrote: Awww, no FvJ.
But let's see if JvZ is still in effect...
JvZ hasn't been in effect for like a year and a half.
Yeah no kidding..... I don't know how his sc2 is, last time when he was playing ZvP it was pretty poor. It was real funny when he was running around with a bunch of roaches vs immortals and blink stalkers trying to burrow and run away.
On May 27 2012 16:31 TheBJ wrote: Ofcourse , reavers have that great "bang" effect than actually brings excitement. Collosi are seriously the only thing i hate about sc2
What if you had Colossi, but replaced their lasers with Reaver Scarabs? Wouldn't that be something interesting to see...
Yes it would.. if you could fit 2 of them into wapr prism, if they couldn't walk cliffs and if they moved slowly..or we could just replace colossi with reavers!
On May 27 2012 16:26 KingRajesh wrote: This is a boring game...
No it wasn't...
Zerg was down at the beginning with that first push, and the game was basically over, but the P just didn't roll into him, even though he could have just gone and killed him.
Glad to see some SC2 next, hopefully these games are better.
Explain the poll? That game was mildly entertaining and was tense at some moments. Overall not a boring game.
Maybe it's because of the Pokebunny stream or something... I just wasn't feeling it.
Nothing against BW or anything, it just seemed like P could have crushed Z at any time for like 15 min, but he was just drawing out the game. I think he had a 75-100 supply lead or something crazy for the most of the game..
Hahaha, well that explains it entirely. You just can't rely on English commentators to bring the BW excitement.
not random, you send one to attack the infestors so they either waste a lot of energy to kill one muta or they lose stuff. the spore deflected it though.
However crazy-hydra screwed up pretty significantly to lose that 3rd. It's really important to hold, and if it finishes you should be able to hold against anything like that.
On May 27 2012 16:56 BlackGosu wrote: this is weird, how is jd's supply lower
Because he invested tons of resources into spines.
He was always behind on drones, almost as if he was scared of making too many of them, bad macro or more likely understanding lost him this game, felt like he didn`t know if he should spend his money or not.
The observer doesn't show very much of the action. Jaedong's counter continued into CH's main, but we have no idea if it killed anything. It looks like it didn't, but we didn't see.
honestly, i don't know what to think. it felt like a genius game by jaedong. he was bunkering up with spines and infestors while waiting with the burrowed roaches for the time that CH attacks. guess the defense wasn't enough. fuck.
If CH had attacked a minute later, I think JD would have been able to hold with those spines. I dunno if it was intentional or not, but it seemed like CH hit a really good timing.
After he took out the third he should have teched to infestors right away. He had a really good game plan though - you could see it all coming together. I think he wanted a base race, which is why he sent all those roaches to the fourth and burrowed them, while building loads of spine crawlers and keeping his infestors at home. It didn't really work out though. He could have sent a much smaller group of roaches to kill the third and kept the rest at home and he might have had a chance.
Jaedong played extremely well early game and should have had essentially a game-winning advantage for any other zerg but i guess no one gave jaedong the memo
In sc2 three bases is really all you need. Each base can be massively saturated with 20 drones on minerals, 6 on gas. thats 78 drones for 3 bases, most opt to go for about 72-75. Once you actually have 3 bases power out to max saturation ASAP then after that use that insane income to power out a massive army to do battle with
crazy-hydra did this. jaedong didnt he just wasnt given the memo i guess that your supposed to power drones asap whenever you can. jaedong was way slower on making drones. so crazy-hydra overran him midgame
still impressed with jaedong good mechanics just wasnt given the memo i guess...
On May 27 2012 17:00 KingRajesh wrote: I never thought I'd say this... but Jaedong looks lost in SC2. Macro was pretty bad.
IdrA has more wins in 2012 SC2 than The Tyrant...
Idra has played a lot more games than Jaedong's grand total of 2.
Jaedong is already playing better than Idra. If it was Idra instead of CH he'd have gg'd as soon as he saw the mutas. Or if it was Idra instead of JD he'd have gg'd as soon as he saw the third base!
On May 27 2012 17:00 Motivate wrote: ...what made jaedong think that a counter attack was a good idea
His spine crawlers and base units were suppose to hold off Crazy-Hydras attack while he destroyed CH's third base. If JD's defense had of prevailed, he would have been ahead. It was a smart decision and would have worked but he had too many resources while CH spent his the entire time. There are decisions in which only they can understand which is why they are pro gamers and you are not.
Some of these comments just show some you guys lack knowledge about SC2 in general. First, his macro wasn't bad at all, and he was way ahead, and before you call bullshit it's kind of known around 60 drones is all that is needed for ZvZ. Came from Nestea's mouth and you don't see much more than that because it's not needed. Also floating minerals after 140-150 supply is normal because Zerg is Gas restricted.
As far as i can see he made one bad decision and that was to go for a basetrade rather than go home and press his big advantage he had.
Stop making this seems bigger than it is, he made one wrong move because he's new to the game, nothing more.
T8 needs to go, if it's gonna destroy good players like jaedong and sea, it's better off gone(not that any player of the team is performing decently either).I'm sure that most of them can be acquired by other teams.
On May 27 2012 17:01 Oboeman wrote: How many infestors did jaedong have for defense? He either didn't have very many, or lost them all very quickly.
I think he was behind in gas from going mutas, even though his third was up earlier. He was trying to build a roach army + get double upgrades + infestors all at the same time and ended up starving. At one point he had 1k minerals / 0 gas, which might have been okay if he had built more spines or had built them earlier.
Jaedong's gas and tech timings were way too late. He did a lot of damage early mid game but his third was delayed and he lacked the gas to transition to infestor roach. All CrazyHydra needed to do was hold JD's mutas off while building a 200/200 army with infestor roach hydra.
On May 27 2012 17:02 roymarthyup wrote: Jaedong played extremely well early game and should have had essentially a game-winning advantage for any other zerg but i guess no one gave jaedong the memo
In sc2 three bases is really all you need. Each base can be massively saturated with 20 drones on minerals, 6 on gas. thats 78 drones for 3 bases, most opt to go for about 72-75. Once you actually have 3 bases power out to max saturation ASAP then after that use that insane income to power out a massive army to do battle with
crazy-hydra did this. jaedong didnt he just wasnt given the memo i guess that your supposed to power drones asap whenever you can. jaedong was way slower on making drones. so crazy-hydra overran him midgame
still impressed with jaedong good mechanics just wasnt given the memo i guess...
Will someone please give him that memo already? sheesh
On May 27 2012 17:02 roymarthyup wrote: Jaedong played extremely well early game and should have had essentially a game-winning advantage for any other zerg but i guess no one gave jaedong the memo
In sc2 three bases is really all you need. Each base can be massively saturated with 20 drones on minerals, 6 on gas. thats 78 drones for 3 bases, most opt to go for about 72-75. Once you actually have 3 bases power out to max saturation ASAP then after that use that insane income to power out a massive army to do battle with
crazy-hydra did this. jaedong didnt he just wasnt given the memo i guess that your supposed to power drones asap whenever you can. jaedong was way slower on making drones. so crazy-hydra overran him midgame
still impressed with jaedong good mechanics just wasnt given the memo i guess...
Will someone please give him that memo already? sheesh
No good understanding of the game and that's it. Give Jaedong more time and he will grow a beast. This game was already a lot better than his previous one
On May 27 2012 17:02 ProxyKnoxy wrote: After he took out the third he should have teched to infestors right away. He had a really good game plan though - you could see it all coming together. I think he wanted a base race, which is why he sent all those roaches to the fourth and burrowed them, while building loads of spine crawlers and keeping his infestors at home. It didn't really work out though. He could have sent a much smaller group of roaches to kill the third and kept the rest at home and he might have had a chance.
It didn't work out simply because his macro was crap during the entire game, he never made enough drones and most definetely was feeling uneasy about how to spend his money, everything else was fine.
You cant judge these players from there current play, what i am looking for is the overall form. JD doing muta splitting and actively sniping creep. I also noticed CH's unit multi tasking was relly good when he was attacking.
There is no gaureentee the so called big 3 of BW are going to dominate. SC2 is a different game
On May 27 2012 17:00 arQ wrote: Whats up with banking 2k minerals and sitting on 61 drones on 4 bases?
It appears that he didn't know what decision to make. His early game decision making was on point but wasn't every good with the mid-game transition due to lack of experience. He will be much better once he understands the mid-game scenarios.
On May 27 2012 17:02 roymarthyup wrote: Jaedong played extremely well early game and should have had essentially a game-winning advantage for any other zerg but i guess no one gave jaedong the memo
In sc2 three bases is really all you need. Each base can be massively saturated with 20 drones on minerals, 6 on gas. thats 78 drones for 3 bases, most opt to go for about 72-75. Once you actually have 3 bases power out to max saturation ASAP then after that use that insane income to power out a massive army to do battle with
crazy-hydra did this. jaedong didnt he just wasnt given the memo i guess that your supposed to power drones asap whenever you can. jaedong was way slower on making drones. so crazy-hydra overran him midgame
still impressed with jaedong good mechanics just wasnt given the memo i guess...
His problem wasn't drones, it was making things in general. His macro slipped hard.
On May 27 2012 17:04 smallerk wrote: To be honest JD just lacks execution, he isn't nearly as bad as he looks.
He doesn't lack execution. Mechanically he's godly. Just lacks the knowledge...
ALL BW players lack the knowledge and Meta-game of SC2. This is totally normal,and expected. I don't see why everyone is calling terrible so fast. You need to realise 1 or 2 months ago these guys had ZERO knowledge and practice in this game. It's impressive they are playing like this even.
On May 27 2012 17:03 Rainfall7711 wrote: Some of these comments just show some you guys lack knowledge about SC2 in general. First, his macro wasn't bad at all, and he was way ahead, and before you call bullshit it's kind of known around 60 drones is all that is needed for ZvZ. Came from Nestea's mouth and you don't see much more than that because it's not needed.
As far as i can see he made one bad decision and that was to go for a basetrade rather than go home and press his big advantage he had.
Stop making this seems bigger than it is, he made one wrong move because he's new to the game, nothing more.
He was floating 1.5k to 2k minerals while at around 150 supply, and with enough gas to build units too.
He was way ahead, his macro slipped badly, and he made a bad decision to counterattack (which wouldn't have been so bad had he been macroing properly and had an extra 30-40 supply of roaches on the map ><)
On May 27 2012 17:04 smallerk wrote: To be honest JD just lacks execution, he isn't nearly as bad as he looks.
He doesn't lack execution. Mechanically he's godly. Just lacks the knowledge...
He has good mechanics, thats why he had 2k minerals and a ton of larva; the thing is he didnt spend them nearly as quickly as he should have, he lacks execution, nothing else.
Same shit with his ZvP last week, had he executed the counter attack better he would've won.
His early game was pretty damn good and there was a lot of positive stuff there, but CrazyHydra just had an obvious better understanding of SC2 3-base maxxing and composition. He had a shit ton of early infestors with energy and filled out Hydras to max, Jaedong didnt have a chance at that point.
JD just need more experience and need to adjust on his transition timing. He wanted to counter attack but his spines was late. He got good plan and insane mechanics. Just have to work more on transition timing
On May 27 2012 17:02 roymarthyup wrote: Jaedong played extremely well early game and should have had essentially a game-winning advantage for any other zerg but i guess no one gave jaedong the memo
In sc2 three bases is really all you need. Each base can be massively saturated with 20 drones on minerals, 6 on gas. thats 78 drones for 3 bases, most opt to go for about 72-75. Once you actually have 3 bases power out to max saturation ASAP then after that use that insane income to power out a massive army to do battle with
crazy-hydra did this. jaedong didnt he just wasnt given the memo i guess that your supposed to power drones asap whenever you can. jaedong was way slower on making drones. so crazy-hydra overran him midgame
still impressed with jaedong good mechanics just wasnt given the memo i guess...
His problem wasn't drones, it was making things in general. His macro slipped hard.
i wouldnt say his macro "slipped" as in he knew what he should do and he didnt
instead i think he just didnt know exactly how strong it is to get 3base saturation ASAP then power out the army.
crazy-hydra got saturation faster, faster gasses, then went straight into army after obtaining saturation while jaedong was banking resources thinking that was viable so crazy-hydra ended up winning because all his money was put into units while jaedong had a bank and spines building
i wouldnt say jaedongs "macro slipped" as that sort of implies he knew what "proper macro" was i mean hes got great mechanics but i guess he just didnt exactly know what the most powerful move to make in his position was so he was confused and lost
I say everybody who's criticizing should shut up until these players have at least 1 year of full experience with SC2. It's useless to make comparisons of players who have played for two years to those who have played for 1-2 months (while practicing two games at once).
On May 27 2012 17:03 Rainfall7711 wrote: Some of these comments just show some you guys lack knowledge about SC2 in general. First, his macro wasn't bad at all, and he was way ahead, and before you call bullshit it's kind of known around 60 drones is all that is needed for ZvZ. Came from Nestea's mouth and you don't see much more than that because it's not needed.
As far as i can see he made one bad decision and that was to go for a basetrade rather than go home and press his big advantage he had.
Stop making this seems bigger than it is, he made one wrong move because he's new to the game, nothing more.
He was floating 1.5k to 2k minerals while at around 150 supply, and with enough gas to build units too.
He was way ahead, his macro slipped badly, and he made a bad decision to counterattack (which wouldn't have been so bad had he been macroing properly and had an extra 30-40 supply of roaches on the map ><)
Yes he floated those minerals but seconds after he produced 21 Roaches and both resources were down below 100. Seriously. He was simply floating until his Roach Warren was complete.
On May 27 2012 17:02 ProxyKnoxy wrote: After he took out the third he should have teched to infestors right away. He had a really good game plan though - you could see it all coming together. I think he wanted a base race, which is why he sent all those roaches to the fourth and burrowed them, while building loads of spine crawlers and keeping his infestors at home. It didn't really work out though. He could have sent a much smaller group of roaches to kill the third and kept the rest at home and he might have had a chance.
Yeah, he had a plan, but not the timings to execute it. I think Jaedong needs to step back and get his basic timings down instead of trying for these huge plays that fall flat because of timing, macro, and composition errors.
He said that he plays the games out in his head, and that's why he loves Stephano because Stephano does the same huge plays that he plays out in his head. But the difference between his plays and Stephano's is that Stephano has the basics down and knows when he is able to make those plays and when he isn't. Jaedong doesn't.
On May 27 2012 17:02 roymarthyup wrote: Jaedong played extremely well early game and should have had essentially a game-winning advantage for any other zerg but i guess no one gave jaedong the memo
In sc2 three bases is really all you need. Each base can be massively saturated with 20 drones on minerals, 6 on gas. thats 78 drones for 3 bases, most opt to go for about 72-75. Once you actually have 3 bases power out to max saturation ASAP then after that use that insane income to power out a massive army to do battle with
crazy-hydra did this. jaedong didnt he just wasnt given the memo i guess that your supposed to power drones asap whenever you can. jaedong was way slower on making drones. so crazy-hydra overran him midgame
still impressed with jaedong good mechanics just wasnt given the memo i guess...
His problem wasn't drones, it was making things in general. His macro slipped hard.
i wouldnt say his macro "slipped" as in he knew what he should do and he didnt
instead i think he just didnt know exactly how strong it is to get 3base saturation ASAP then power out the army.
crazy-hydra got saturation faster, faster gasses, then went straight into army after obtaining saturation while jaedong was banking resources thinking that was viable so crazy-hydra ended up winning because all his money was put into units while jaedong had a bank and spines building
i wouldnt say jaedongs "macro slipped" as that sort of implies he knew what "proper macro" was i mean hes got great mechanics but i guess he just didnt exactly know what the most powerful move to make in his position was so he was confused and lost
Exactly this, jaedong clearly didn't know what he needed do what and at what times.
Another bad counter attack from Jaedong, and horrible macro decisions. He stayed around 160 food forever and basically let Crazy-Hydra come back, tech to everything, and a-move. I really don't understand this - decision making, and especially macro, are some of his strengths.
SC2 takes away the multitasking requirement that dominates BW macro, allowing players to focus more on micro and decision making/battles. Yet thus far it seems like many BW players are struggling with...everything. I had thought they'd be building huge armies and microing the shit out of them, now that they didn't have to worry about constantly rallying units to a battle. Jaedong should have won that game but completely threw it away
On May 27 2012 17:02 ProxyKnoxy wrote: After he took out the third he should have teched to infestors right away. He had a really good game plan though - you could see it all coming together. I think he wanted a base race, which is why he sent all those roaches to the fourth and burrowed them, while building loads of spine crawlers and keeping his infestors at home. It didn't really work out though. He could have sent a much smaller group of roaches to kill the third and kept the rest at home and he might have had a chance.
Yeah, he had a plan, but not the timings to execute it. I think Jaedong needs to step back and get his basic timings down instead of trying for these huge plays that fall flat because of timing, macro, and composition errors.
He said that he plays the games out in his head, and that's why he loves Stephano because Stephano does the same huge plays that he plays out in his head. But the difference between his plays and Stephano's is that Stephano has the basics down and knows when he is able to make those plays and when he isn't. Jaedong doesn't.
Stephano also has 2 years of experience playing this game, Jaedong doesn't.
On May 27 2012 17:04 smallerk wrote: To be honest JD just lacks execution, he isn't nearly as bad as he looks.
He doesn't lack execution. Mechanically he's godly. Just lacks the knowledge...
He has good mechanics, thats why he had 2k minerals and a ton of larva; the thing is he didnt spend them nearly as quickly as he should have, he lacks execution, nothing else.
Same shit with his ZvP last week, had he executed the counter attack better he would've won.
Look at his gas. He had almost 2k and like no gas at all because he was teching to +2attack and +1 armor and also infestor tech. But i agreed he should have plant a lot of spines if he planned to counter attack.
His early-mid game was fantastic though. His execution will get better when he get more game experience.
On May 27 2012 17:11 Ribbon wrote: So, TBLS is 0-5 in SC2, now?
It's something that was to be expected in my opinion, the best players are the one who started practicing SC2 the later, because their team relied on them for proleague games. It's also the reason that this format is bad, it's a bit unfortunate to see the legendaries players of broodwar loose to lower level opponents because they have been playing sc2 much less, it's also probably confusing for proleague viewers.
On May 27 2012 17:03 Rainfall7711 wrote: Some of these comments just show some you guys lack knowledge about SC2 in general. First, his macro wasn't bad at all, and he was way ahead, and before you call bullshit it's kind of known around 60 drones is all that is needed for ZvZ. Came from Nestea's mouth and you don't see much more than that because it's not needed.
As far as i can see he made one bad decision and that was to go for a basetrade rather than go home and press his big advantage he had.
Stop making this seems bigger than it is, he made one wrong move because he's new to the game, nothing more.
He was floating 1.5k to 2k minerals while at around 150 supply, and with enough gas to build units too.
He was way ahead, his macro slipped badly, and he made a bad decision to counterattack (which wouldn't have been so bad had he been macroing properly and had an extra 30-40 supply of roaches on the map ><)
Yes he floated those minerals but seconds after he produced 21 Roaches and both resources were down below 100. Seriously. He was simply floating until his Roach Warren was complete.
What are you talking about, he had roaches out on the map while he was floating lol.
Resources only came down towards normal levels when he lost his third/fourth/fifth hatches and his mining income died off but he still had larva for last ditch rounds of production.
People are nuts saying JD was way ahead. Or else they're just clueless about ZvZ. When Jaedong's mutas were taking out CH's third, CH was already massing infestors. When CH had rebuilt his third and JD was just starting to tech up to infestor, CH already had 8 infestors out. That is a ridiculous advantage.
All JD did was deny the third and kill some ovies. In exchange for what? 1K+ in gas? CH dumped all that in infestors instead, so when the fight actually came, he had enough energy to spit out 30-40 infested terrans and fungal AND had a much higher hydra count.
JD did some good moves with the queen sniping and trapping that initial roach pressure with mass ling, but going muta was a horrible mistake. Muta along with double upgrades along with roach tunneling claws was just suicide. That's way too much gas being spent on shit that's not infestors. Infestors > all in ZvZ. Simple as that.
On May 27 2012 17:17 pdd wrote: Regarding the OGN production: They really need the production tab on most of the times. It's just such a key component of SC2 broadcasts.
Part of having good decisions in games is simply remembering past failures and not repeating them. This is still a learning experience. The only relevant thing to me is comparing where they are at after a month or two compared to what the current top SC 2 pros were after the same time frame. It's a trajectory thing, IMO (just started myself, so dunno, though).
On May 27 2012 17:17 StorkHwaiting wrote: People are nuts saying JD was way ahead. Or else they're just clueless about ZvZ. When Jaedong's mutas were taking out CH's third, CH was already massing infestors. When CH had rebuilt his third and JD was just starting to tech up to infestor, CH already had 8 infestors out. That is a ridiculous advantage.
All JD did was deny the third and kill some ovies. In exchange for what? 1K+ in gas? CH dumped all that in infestors instead, so when the fight actually came, he had enough energy to spit out 30-40 infested terrans and fungal AND had a much higher hydra count.
JD did some good moves with the queen sniping and trapping that initial roach pressure with mass ling, but going muta was a horrible mistake. Muta along with double upgrades along with roach tunneling claws was just suicide. That's way too much gas being spent on shit that's not infestors. Infestors > all in ZvZ. Simple as that.
JD had 3 bases and should have had faster gasses to get out way more infestors with more gas but he was slow on his gasses
i think any zerg would preferr to be in jaedongs position. are there master zergs here who disagree with me (are you a master zerg? if so i guess i eat crow)
i mean i think jaedong was just confused and didnt know the most powerful ways to act off his advantage but he was clearly extremely ahead
because he noticed his opponent has no combat, and he does. combat shield makes a very large difference in early-mid game situations, tons of players would have made that same decision to act, probably me as well.
Flash is using weird timings, this build he is doing flat out dies to banshee play, too slow combat shields, factory too fast, 3rd and 4th gases also too fast, but everything lines up nicely otherwise.
On May 27 2012 17:20 IshinShishi wrote: Flash is using weird timings, this build he is doing flat out dies to banshee play, too slow combat shields, factory too fast, 3rd and 4th gases also too fast, but everything lines up nicely otherwise.
I don't think he would be doing this if he scouted banshees lol.
On May 27 2012 17:20 IshinShishi wrote: Flash is using weird timings, this build he is doing flat out dies to banshee play, too slow combat shields, factory too fast, 3rd and 4th gases also too fast, but everything lines up nicely otherwise.
Didn't he scout gasless play? Missed the start of the game TT
On May 27 2012 17:17 StorkHwaiting wrote: People are nuts saying JD was way ahead. Or else they're just clueless about ZvZ. When Jaedong's mutas were taking out CH's third, CH was already massing infestors. When CH had rebuilt his third and JD was just starting to tech up to infestor, CH already had 8 infestors out. That is a ridiculous advantage.
All JD did was deny the third and kill some ovies. In exchange for what? 1K+ in gas? CH dumped all that in infestors instead, so when the fight actually came, he had enough energy to spit out 30-40 infested terrans and fungal AND had a much higher hydra count.
JD did some good moves with the queen sniping and trapping that initial roach pressure with mass ling, but going muta was a horrible mistake. Muta along with double upgrades along with roach tunneling claws was just suicide. That's way too much gas being spent on shit that's not infestors. Infestors > all in ZvZ. Simple as that.
JD had 3 bases and should have had faster gasses to get out way more infestors with more gas but he was slow on his gasses
i think any zerg would preferr to be in jaedongs position. are there master zergs here who disagree with me (are you a master zerg? if so i guess i eat crow)
i mean i think jaedong was just confused and didnt know the most powerful ways to act off his advantage but he was clearly extremely ahead
Imo JD thought he could hold with mass spines. I also think he was shocked by how massive the dps of 40+ infested terrans are. I also think he'll never go mutas again
On May 27 2012 17:17 StorkHwaiting wrote: People are nuts saying JD was way ahead. Or else they're just clueless about ZvZ. When Jaedong's mutas were taking out CH's third, CH was already massing infestors. When CH had rebuilt his third and JD was just starting to tech up to infestor, CH already had 8 infestors out. That is a ridiculous advantage.
All JD did was deny the third and kill some ovies. In exchange for what? 1K+ in gas? CH dumped all that in infestors instead, so when the fight actually came, he had enough energy to spit out 30-40 infested terrans and fungal AND had a much higher hydra count.
JD did some good moves with the queen sniping and trapping that initial roach pressure with mass ling, but going muta was a horrible mistake. Muta along with double upgrades along with roach tunneling claws was just suicide. That's way too much gas being spent on shit that's not infestors. Infestors > all in ZvZ. Simple as that.
Violet played mutas vs. Stephano in MLG Spring Arena 2 and crushed him playing roach infestor.
The idea behind mutas in ZvZ is that they give you map control and the ability to take a third while denying your opponent's third. The fast infestor player has to stay on two bases until he gets infestors, at which time you, the muta player, is on three bases with six gases and is transitioning to roach infestor yourself. Your infestors are behind his in timing, but you're going to have a higher roach count due to better economy, which carries you into the late-game.
Jaedong's transitions were way too late. He was floating 2k minerals because he took the gases on the third late and had no gas for the units he wanted to build.
I really love how Flash always had just enough to defend, allowing him to optimally commit his army on his stranglehold on Baby's 3rd. Clinical play by Flash!
On May 27 2012 17:20 IshinShishi wrote: Flash is using weird timings, this build he is doing flat out dies to banshee play, too slow combat shields, factory too fast, 3rd and 4th gases also too fast, but everything lines up nicely otherwise.
I don't think he would be doing this if he scouted banshees lol.
Point is, if he scouted banshees he wouldn't be able to react in due time without taking a ton of damage, assuming that baby controlled properly, very very greedy play.
A thing that I noticed about Flash is absolutely brilliant, he always scans all over the map, almost no mules used by him. That is so strong in this positional matchup as there is no way to drop him or counterattack so he can put up those contains. So sick!
I think Flash's timings are really interesting. Such a late combat shields, but so many more marines, late 3rd. He maxes/gets high pop VERY fast. I have a few reps from people playing him on Korean Servers, and in all match ups he opts for more marines than combat shields(he doesn't get 'fast' stim either, just skips the combat shields altogether) until 3rd base. It's really bizzare, but very very strong, especially with his macro.
Look forward to more small tweaks with his good macro, really interesting to me. ^_^
On May 27 2012 17:26 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Wow SO much better than MVP right now
Huh? He played well sure but we don't know how good Baby is and Flash didn't pull anything too amazing. Nice macro but if you're going to be critical his upgrades weren't started on point and he didn't get +1 mech, plus his overstimming. Baby made mistakes like that stupid all marine tank + how come no vikings at all to spot for tanks? Very confusing - a single viking could slowly push air control toward Baby.
Calm down before you say he's better then MVP.
edit; @ whoever said he's a troll. Honestly, some people on TL would be completely serious saying this.
On May 27 2012 17:26 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Wow SO much better than MVP right now
Huh? He played well sure but we don't know how good Baby is and Flash didn't pull anything too amazing. Nice macro but if you're going to be critical his upgrades weren't started on point and he didn't get +1 mech, plus his overstimming. Baby made mistakes like that stupid all marine tank + how come no vikings at all to spot for tanks? Very confusing - a single viking could slowly push air control toward Baby.
Calm down before you say he's better then MVP.
edit; @ whoever said he's a troll. Honestly, some people on TL would be completely serious saying this.
On May 27 2012 17:20 IshinShishi wrote: Flash is using weird timings, this build he is doing flat out dies to banshee play, too slow combat shields, factory too fast, 3rd and 4th gases also too fast, but everything lines up nicely otherwise.
I don't think he would be doing this if he scouted banshees lol.
Point is, if he scouted banshees he wouldn't be able to react in due time without taking a ton of damage, assuming that baby controlled properly, very very greedy play.
Mate he scouted 1 rax expand, and you have no idea what he scanned afterwards. Can't make assumptions that he did the build regardless of scouting information. And well placed turrets deflect banshee harass extremely easy on cloud kingdom.
On May 27 2012 17:27 stipe145 wrote: A thing that I noticed about Flash is absolutely brilliant, he always scans all over the map, almost no mules used by him. That is so strong in this positional matchup as there is no way to drop him or counterattack so he can put up those contains. So sick!
I find this funny because the first thing that impressed me about flash years ago was how awesome his scans where. I was like how did he know that shit was there!!
On May 27 2012 17:26 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Wow SO much better than MVP right now
Huh? He played well sure but we don't know how good Baby is and Flash didn't pull anything too amazing. Nice macro but if you're going to be critical his upgrades weren't started on point and he didn't get +1 mech, plus his overstimming. Baby made mistakes like that stupid all marine tank + how come no vikings at all to spot for tanks? Very confusing - a single viking could slowly push air control toward Baby.
Calm down before you say he's better then MVP.
He didn't get +1 mech because he didn't want to, I can assure you.
On May 27 2012 17:26 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Wow SO much better than MVP right now
Huh? He played well sure but we don't know how good Baby is and Flash didn't pull anything too amazing. Nice macro but if you're going to be critical his upgrades weren't started on point and he didn't get +1 mech, plus his overstimming. Baby made mistakes like that stupid all marine tank + how come no vikings at all to spot for tanks? Very confusing - a single viking could slowly push air control toward Baby.
Calm down before you say he's better then MVP.
edit; @ whoever said he's a troll. Honestly, some people on TL would be completely serious saying this.
On May 27 2012 17:27 stipe145 wrote: A thing that I noticed about Flash is absolutely brilliant, he always scans all over the map, almost no mules used by him. That is so strong in this positional matchup as there is no way to drop him or counterattack so he can put up those contains. So sick!
I find this funny because the first thing that impressed me about flash years ago was how awesome his scans where. I was like how did he know that shit was there!!
that's also how dear was able to beat him - his scan pattern in bw apparently became quite analyzable
Excited to see Jaedong play again, I just wish I had more confidence in him. I know he'll be amazing once he gets the time in, but right now he seems a bit average.
Still, even if I don't think he'll win. I believe he will. Jaedong fighting! Taking it home for Team 8.
Oh shit. I sure hope JD has got a prepared build for Protoss on this map because his general play leaves a lot of be desired. I'm thinking roach/ling all-in.
On May 27 2012 17:20 IshinShishi wrote: Flash is using weird timings, this build he is doing flat out dies to banshee play, too slow combat shields, factory too fast, 3rd and 4th gases also too fast, but everything lines up nicely otherwise.
I don't think he would be doing this if he scouted banshees lol.
Point is, if he scouted banshees he wouldn't be able to react in due time without taking a ton of damage, assuming that baby controlled properly, very very greedy play.
Mate he scouted 1 rax expand, and you have no idea what he scanned afterwards. Can't make assumptions that he did the build regardless of scouting information. And well placed turrets deflect banshee harass extremely easy on cloud kingdom.
1 rax expand followed by 2 gas vs what flash was doing would do a lot of damage "mate", I've watched enough TvTs to know what I'm talking about "mate", have you?He went straight to 2 reactors without combat shield, first banshee would hit while flash had like 5 marines, gl against that.
Lol guys i know you all love Flash but he's no where near anyone special yet. It was a inactive game of Marine Tank mirror after his opponent put himself behind with a silly attack that made no sense. He macroed well, but that's not enough when shit get's real sorry. They all have a long way to go.
On May 27 2012 17:20 IshinShishi wrote: Flash is using weird timings, this build he is doing flat out dies to banshee play, too slow combat shields, factory too fast, 3rd and 4th gases also too fast, but everything lines up nicely otherwise.
I don't think he would be doing this if he scouted banshees lol.
Point is, if he scouted banshees he wouldn't be able to react in due time without taking a ton of damage, assuming that baby controlled properly, very very greedy play.
Mate he scouted 1 rax expand, and you have no idea what he scanned afterwards. Can't make assumptions that he did the build regardless of scouting information. And well placed turrets deflect banshee harass extremely easy on cloud kingdom.
1 rax expand followed by 2 gas vs what flash was doing would do a lot of damage "mate", I've watched enough TvTs to know what I'm talking about "mate", have you?He went straight to 2 reactors without combat shield, first banshee would hit while flash had like 5 marines, gl against that.
The best players take risks, and this one worked out.
On May 27 2012 17:35 MrCon wrote: Bleh, jd starting his sc2 career 0-3 makes me sad >< His first game vs toss was too sad to watch, I hope he won't die to forecfields again TT
On May 27 2012 17:35 MrCon wrote: Bleh, jd starting his sc2 career 0-3 makes me sad >< His first game vs toss was too sad to watch, I hope he won't die to forecfields again TT
On May 27 2012 17:20 IshinShishi wrote: Flash is using weird timings, this build he is doing flat out dies to banshee play, too slow combat shields, factory too fast, 3rd and 4th gases also too fast, but everything lines up nicely otherwise.
I don't think he would be doing this if he scouted banshees lol.
Point is, if he scouted banshees he wouldn't be able to react in due time without taking a ton of damage, assuming that baby controlled properly, very very greedy play.
Mate he scouted 1 rax expand, and you have no idea what he scanned afterwards. Can't make assumptions that he did the build regardless of scouting information. And well placed turrets deflect banshee harass extremely easy on cloud kingdom.
1 rax expand followed by 2 gas vs what flash was doing would do a lot of damage "mate", I've watched enough TvTs to know what I'm talking about "mate", have you?He went straight to 2 reactors without combat shield, first banshee would hit while flash had like 5 marines, gl against that.
The best players take risks, and this one worked out.
Not questioning that, I'm sure he had his reasons.
On May 27 2012 17:35 Art.FeeL wrote: To clarify things. ACE match can be played by anyone as far as i understand. Even if the player wasn't scheduled to play sc2 that day
Anyone that has played/was scheduled for one of the six matches, that is.
On May 27 2012 17:35 Art.FeeL wrote: To clarify things. ACE match can be played by anyone as far as i understand. Even if the player wasn't scheduled to play sc2 that day
no the Ace player has to be scheduled that day (in either game) so that he has to play broodwar too. You can't just have a fulltime SC2 player winning every ace match.
On May 27 2012 17:20 IshinShishi wrote: Flash is using weird timings, this build he is doing flat out dies to banshee play, too slow combat shields, factory too fast, 3rd and 4th gases also too fast, but everything lines up nicely otherwise.
That's what Flash does. He wins OSL golds because of the massive risks he's willing to take, get used to it.
Dont underestimate the power of the JD vs Flash rivalry. Flash just destroyed JD's teamate in front of his eyes, JD will want to do exactly the same, especially against the so call best sc2 players of kespa.
On May 27 2012 17:20 IshinShishi wrote: Flash is using weird timings, this build he is doing flat out dies to banshee play, too slow combat shields, factory too fast, 3rd and 4th gases also too fast, but everything lines up nicely otherwise.
That's what Flash does. He wins OSL golds because of the massive risks he's willing to take, get used to it.
That engo bay was up early enough to get up turrets and he saves enough scans to fight banshees pretty sure.
On May 27 2012 17:36 Tabbris wrote: You know Jaedong has his heart into this and really wants to prove himself.
Yeah, at least we get the message that JD is interested in sc2 and has his passion. Tbh, I feel he has more passion playing this season than the last one.
On May 27 2012 17:38 LloydPGM wrote: Crowd looks / sounds bored T_T
They were astonished at T8's choice of ace.
On May 27 2012 17:38 sM.Zik wrote: Dont underestimate the power of the JD vs Flash rivalry. Flash just destroyed JD's teamate in front of his eyes, JD will want to do exactly the same, especially against the so call best sc2 players of kespa.
Yeah, I might be hoping way too much
I don't think it has to do with their rivalry, but with the fire that's in Jaedong's eyes and spirit since before Flash debuted (although being younger is no crime, Flash has his own force).
On May 27 2012 17:33 Mike15xp wrote: is lizzy the best sc2 player in SPL? haven't seen any of his games so sry if its a dumb question lol
He's at best Code A material. So far I would say yes.
ah i see thanks. i was just wondering why everyone was calling him a automatic sc2 win.
I dunno if this is true or not, but apparently FXOBoss was in a proleague chat and he said Lizzy was actually in the process of being transfered to NSHoSeo when the SC2 transition was announced. KT decided to keep him at that point.
On May 27 2012 17:41 cablesc wrote: I sure hope Jaedong comes in with a decent prepared build because it'll be sad if Lizzy just owns and sends TBSL to 0-6.
On May 27 2012 17:41 cablesc wrote: I sure hope Jaedong comes in with a decent prepared build because it'll be sad if Lizzy just owns and sends TBSL to 0-6.
On May 27 2012 17:41 cablesc wrote: I sure hope Jaedong comes in with a decent prepared build because it'll be sad if Lizzy just owns and sends TBSL to 0-6.
On May 27 2012 17:41 cablesc wrote: I sure hope Jaedong comes in with a decent prepared build because it'll be sad if Lizzy just owns and sends TBSL to 0-6.
On May 27 2012 17:20 IshinShishi wrote: Flash is using weird timings, this build he is doing flat out dies to banshee play, too slow combat shields, factory too fast, 3rd and 4th gases also too fast, but everything lines up nicely otherwise.
That's what Flash does. He wins OSL golds because of the massive risks he's willing to take, get used to it.
This is SC2 and not BW. MMA takes even crazy risk than Flash in SC2 and look where he ended up. But i admit Flash is damn good in BW though as he won 6 championships.
On May 27 2012 17:20 IshinShishi wrote: Flash is using weird timings, this build he is doing flat out dies to banshee play, too slow combat shields, factory too fast, 3rd and 4th gases also too fast, but everything lines up nicely otherwise.
I don't think he would be doing this if he scouted banshees lol.
Point is, if he scouted banshees he wouldn't be able to react in due time without taking a ton of damage, assuming that baby controlled properly, very very greedy play.
Mate he scouted 1 rax expand, and you have no idea what he scanned afterwards. Can't make assumptions that he did the build regardless of scouting information. And well placed turrets deflect banshee harass extremely easy on cloud kingdom.
1 rax expand followed by 2 gas vs what flash was doing would do a lot of damage "mate", I've watched enough TvTs to know what I'm talking about "mate", have you?He went straight to 2 reactors without combat shield, first banshee would hit while flash had like 5 marines, gl against that.
Sorry but i trust Flash's practise more then your "knowledge" of TvT . He has practised this build alot and has probably experienced banshees on ladder and has an idea of how to defend them . If he knows that banshees are coming he would have had turrets up or pumped more marines .
On May 27 2012 17:20 IshinShishi wrote: Flash is using weird timings, this build he is doing flat out dies to banshee play, too slow combat shields, factory too fast, 3rd and 4th gases also too fast, but everything lines up nicely otherwise.
That's what Flash does. He wins OSL golds because of the massive risks he's willing to take, get used to it.
This is SC2 and not BW. MMA takes even crazy risk than Flash in SC2 and look where he ended up. But i admit Flash is damn good in BW though as he won 6 championships.
you "admit" flash is good in bw? how generous of you
On May 27 2012 17:41 cablesc wrote: I sure hope Jaedong comes in with a decent prepared build because it'll be sad if Lizzy just owns and sends TBSL to 0-6.
On May 27 2012 17:20 IshinShishi wrote: Flash is using weird timings, this build he is doing flat out dies to banshee play, too slow combat shields, factory too fast, 3rd and 4th gases also too fast, but everything lines up nicely otherwise.
That's what Flash does. He wins OSL golds because of the massive risks he's willing to take, get used to it.
This is SC2 and not BW. MMA takes even crazy risk than Flash in SC2 and look where he ended up. But i admit Flash is damn good in BW though as he won 6 championships.
you "admit" flash is good in bw? how generous of you
Sorry i should rephrase that and say flash is godly in BW.
On May 27 2012 17:36 Tabbris wrote: You know Jaedong has his heart into this and really wants to prove himself.
Yeah, at least we get the message that JD is interested in sc2 and has his passion. Tbh, I feel he has more passion playing this season than the last one.
Flash, too, when he lost his first game, was pretty clearly pissed. TBLS want to be the best, and that's the drive that let them be so good in BW.
On May 27 2012 17:20 IshinShishi wrote: Flash is using weird timings, this build he is doing flat out dies to banshee play, too slow combat shields, factory too fast, 3rd and 4th gases also too fast, but everything lines up nicely otherwise.
That's what Flash does. He wins OSL golds because of the massive risks he's willing to take, get used to it.
This is SC2 and not BW. MMA takes even crazy risk than Flash in SC2 and look where he ended up. But i admit Flash is damn good in BW though as he won 6 championships.
On May 27 2012 17:17 StorkHwaiting wrote: People are nuts saying JD was way ahead. Or else they're just clueless about ZvZ. When Jaedong's mutas were taking out CH's third, CH was already massing infestors. When CH had rebuilt his third and JD was just starting to tech up to infestor, CH already had 8 infestors out. That is a ridiculous advantage.
All JD did was deny the third and kill some ovies. In exchange for what? 1K+ in gas? CH dumped all that in infestors instead, so when the fight actually came, he had enough energy to spit out 30-40 infested terrans and fungal AND had a much higher hydra count.
JD did some good moves with the queen sniping and trapping that initial roach pressure with mass ling, but going muta was a horrible mistake. Muta along with double upgrades along with roach tunneling claws was just suicide. That's way too much gas being spent on shit that's not infestors. Infestors > all in ZvZ. Simple as that.
Violet played mutas vs. Stephano in MLG Spring Arena 2 and crushed him playing roach infestor.
The idea behind mutas in ZvZ is that they give you map control and the ability to take a third while denying your opponent's third. The fast infestor player has to stay on two bases until he gets infestors, at which time you, the muta player, is on three bases with six gases and is transitioning to roach infestor yourself. Your infestors are behind his in timing, but you're going to have a higher roach count due to better economy, which carries you into the late-game.
Jaedong's transitions were way too late. He was floating 2k minerals because he took the gases on the third late and had no gas for the units he wanted to build.
Your analysis has so many gaping holes in it, I don't even know where to begin but I guess I'll try once.
JD had map control with ling/banes. Not roaches. AKA he's not going to transition from muta to a higher roach count since he had no roaches to begin with. You're talking about a completely different opening and transition than what JD did in that game.
The build you're talking about is going mutas to counter a roach timing attack where you throw down a few spines, hold with spines and mutas, drive his roaches back and kill many of them, deny his third and pick off ovies. There's no way for him to get his third back because he sunk so much gas into a +1 up, speed, and roaches, so his infestors are going to be too slow to defend the mutas. By the time they're out and fungaling mutas, your third's been up for 3-4 minutes and saturated and your roach count is way up. That is NOT what happened in this game whatsoever.
What JD did was go ling/bane for pressure and map control. He got countered by roach DEFENSE, not a timing attack. After his bane/ling pressure was blocked, he went straight into mutas and spammed out as many of them as he could while building zero roaches. He spent a long time running around sniping ovies and spore crawlers, eventually took down the third, and then started his own expo.
In the meantime. CH just massed infestors on 2 base gas, extended his creep so his queens could defend against mutas, and calmly retook his third, dropping a bunch more spores to defend it from air. JD then dropped 550 gas on double ups, roach speed, and burrow. ALL of this before he ever put down an infestor pit or made any roaches.
So, basically, JD spent 1-1100 gas on mutas, 550 on upgrades, and still hadn't built a single roach or infestor. What part of that fits into your strategy of mutas taking map, denying third, and getting ahead in roach count while being slightly behind on infestor timing?
Just no. What happened was that 1600 fking gas JD blew on killing nothing but mineral units and buildings, was spent to buy a shit-ton of infestors for CH. Then CH went ahead and retook his third anyway, since JD couldn't sustain map control, thereby equaling the gas income.
So... CH is sitting on a massive advantage in gas units, has just as many roaches, and then because he's so far ahead, while JD got infestors, CH added on hydras. Then they clashed. JD had spines and half the amount of infestors with barely enough energy for one fungal. CH had max energy double count of infestors, hydras, and same roach count.
And your example of Violet vs Stephano doesn't make any sense because you haven't provided any relevant details. Just saying muta won vs roach/infestor doesn't mean anything. I could go 10 gas muta and beat a 2 gas roach/infestor and then say I won mutas vs roach/infestor.
There's a whole sequence of events that need to happen for the muta strategy you're talking about to play out the way I'm guessing Violet and Stephano's game did. Just saying some random stuff about "Violet's mutas pwnt Roach/infestor" is meaningless.
Damn, JaeDong did the job but so many mistakes :// -> begin roach warren at 8' is ultra late -> ultra late upgrades (starting +2 carapace @ 15' game -> no colossus for protoss -> protoss friendly didn't 2 bases all-in, hopefully for ulra greedy JD who would have died with a 7 gates timing push
On May 27 2012 17:59 LloydPGM wrote: Damn, JaeDong did the job but so many mistakes :// -> begin roach warren at 8' is ultra late -> ultra late upgrades (starting +2 carapace @ 15' game -> no colossus for protoss -> protoss friendly didn't 2 bases all-in, hopefully for ulra greedy JD who would have died with a 7 gates timing push
There's a feeling I get sometimes only in ZvPs, before sAviOr and Bisu in Lost Saga, before Yellow and Bisu on HBR, before JD and Lizzy, like you know who the winner will and must be... probably just my imagination. Of course JD won't smile, because he didn't achieve anything yet, he always has to win the next games. Maybe he couldn't let Flash be the only TBLS to win today.
Fucking nerd chills. I've not been a long time BW fan, and i play Protoss. For Jeadong to lose in a bad game, then have the balls to step up under pressure against the most impressive guy we've seen so far, then play a staller game gets all my respect, this guy will be a beast guys never fear.
On May 27 2012 17:59 LloydPGM wrote: Damn, JaeDong did the job but so many mistakes :// -> begin roach warren at 8' is ultra late -> ultra late upgrades (starting +2 carapace @ 15' game -> no colossus for protoss -> protoss friendly didn't 2 bases all-in, hopefully for ulra greedy JD who would have died with a 7 gates timing push
He couldn't afford collossus... immortals would have been better in that situation anyway. If he executed his forcefields better than he would have held it off, but he let too many roaches in.
jd still not useto forcefields imo, if lizzy had been more decisive he could have traped heaps of the roaches when jd was pressuring those gateways at the third. still wp by jaedong
glad to see jaedong win a game! showed he definitely has good game understanding, not just derping into forcefields this game, trying to bait out forcefields and doing so successfully :D he played really well
On May 27 2012 18:00 sharkie wrote: Lizzy might be KT's best SC2 player, but being as ace requires way more than skill. So much depends on one's mental's strength.
On May 27 2012 17:59 LloydPGM wrote: Damn, JaeDong did the job but so many mistakes :// -> begin roach warren at 8' is ultra late -> ultra late upgrades (starting +2 carapace @ 15' game -> no colossus for protoss -> protoss friendly didn't 2 bases all-in, hopefully for ulra greedy JD who would have died with a 7 gates timing push
1. Roach warren was late agreed, but when you see a robo you don't need it super fast 2. Yes, again though timings for them aren't as good (although Jaedong still did the fast roach like awesome) 3. Colossi wouldn't have helped, this was shown a long time ago that going more immortal heavy when taking a third is better then going super fast colossi. 4. Possibly, Jaedong I believe scouted and would have seen it and prepared for it.
In short, you don't really know what you are talking about though with colossi and assuming jaedong didn't know he wasn't doing a 7 gate rush.
On May 27 2012 17:59 LloydPGM wrote: Damn, JaeDong did the job but so many mistakes :// -> begin roach warren at 8' is ultra late -> protoss friendly didn't 2 bases all-in, hopefully for ulra greedy JD who would have died with a 7 gates timing push
This is pretty important, I don't even think he had an overlord over that cliff edge by the third that toss always build proxies at. The game could have ended a lot more quickly if Lizzy had decided to pressure instead of take a quick third.
JD played super greedy and won the same way that Stephano has won hundreds of games. Good play but a bit risky vs. some of the tighter protoss all-ins.
On May 27 2012 17:59 LloydPGM wrote: Damn, JaeDong did the job but so many mistakes :// -> begin roach warren at 8' is ultra late -> ultra late upgrades (starting +2 carapace @ 15' game -> no colossus for protoss -> protoss friendly didn't 2 bases all-in, hopefully for ulra greedy JD who would have died with a 7 gates timing push
Fast double gas at the natural told jaedong he could delay his gas and roach warren, and that no fast 7-gate was coming. either he understands that or he was greedy and got lucky You don't really need colossi against that. Better to keep a high immortal count and get blink.
On May 27 2012 17:59 LloydPGM wrote: Damn, JaeDong did the job but so many mistakes :// -> begin roach warren at 8' is ultra late -> ultra late upgrades (starting +2 carapace @ 15' game -> no colossus for protoss -> protoss friendly didn't 2 bases all-in, hopefully for ulra greedy JD who would have died with a 7 gates timing push
Jd still looked shaky on his timings and resource spending more importantly, still very happy for him, if Lizzy hadn't gone for such a desperate attack and waited like 2 minutes to max out I wonder what the result would've been.
On May 27 2012 17:57 AxionSteel wrote: Jaedong crushing that kid
Lizzy won't be their ace for long.
Hmmm, Jaedong played the style Stephano developed, fast max (~12minutes) with roaches and lings after droning up to 60 before building any units.
It is very hard to counter for Toss, you need to do a 2-base immortal allin or pressure the zerg so he can't drone freely. Jaedong seems to be ahead in the metagame here because Lizzy really didn't know what he was supposed to do against this style of play.
Jaedong said in an interview that he likes Stephano's style of play and what he does and now he copied the style and it's very effective. I think the BW players are catching up very fast to the current meta-game of SC2. And since Jaedong also didn't need more then 12 minutes to max out he actually plays this style almost as good as Stephano himself. I guess soon the BW pros will be on even footing with the SC2 pros.
On May 27 2012 17:59 LloydPGM wrote: Damn, JaeDong did the job but so many mistakes :// -> begin roach warren at 8' is ultra late -> ultra late upgrades (starting +2 carapace @ 15' game -> no colossus for protoss -> protoss friendly didn't 2 bases all-in, hopefully for ulra greedy JD who would have died with a 7 gates timing push
Mental strength was the decider of this match
It was more about Jaedong scouting the fast 4 gas and the third base as soon as it was up. He also scouted the immortal and most importantly the number of gateways with a second overlord in the main. He did know everything Lizzy was doing.
Oh my god i wanted JD to win so bad, couldn't bear to see him lose again and have his spirit crushed. JD and Flash won today and the world makes sense, at least for now. I can go to bed happy now.
On May 27 2012 18:01 blade55555 wrote: 1. Roach warren was late agreed, but when you see a robo you don't need it super fast
I disagree with this, there are definitely builds that do an ultra-fast +1 zealot push and get a robo at the same time. One of them was in the Haypro replay pack posted on teamliquidpro.com recently. Lizzy might not be a perfect SC2 player but I think he's capable of something like that, especially on a map with a hard-to-defend third.
On May 27 2012 18:04 Rube_Juice wrote: Oh my god i wanted JD to win so bad, couldn't bear to see him lose again and have his spirit crushed. JD and Flash won today and the world makes sense, at least for now. I can go to bed happy now.
GG JAEDONG !!!!!!!! Very nice 12 max build ! For someone who's rookie at SC2 it's pretty impressive ! Getting used with injections, creep, and other SC2 mechanics, Jaedong did very well !
On May 27 2012 18:01 blade55555 wrote: 1. Roach warren was late agreed, but when you see a robo you don't need it super fast
I disagree with this, there are definitely builds that do an ultra-fast +1 zealot push and get a robo at the same time. One of them was in the Haypro replay pack posted on teamliquidpro.com recently. Lizzy might not be a perfect SC2 player but I think he's capable of something like that, especially on a map with a hard-to-defend third.
Yeah but you can hold that with pure lings since he only had 3-4 gateways.
On May 27 2012 18:01 blade55555 wrote: 1. Roach warren was late agreed, but when you see a robo you don't need it super fast
I disagree with this, there are definitely builds that do an ultra-fast +1 zealot push and get a robo at the same time. One of them was in the Haypro replay pack posted on teamliquidpro.com recently. Lizzy might not be a perfect SC2 player but I think he's capable of something like that, especially on a map with a hard-to-defend third.
Maybe he counted chronos on the core like a pro, because warpgate finished too late for this.
On May 27 2012 18:04 Rube_Juice wrote: Oh my god i wanted JD to win so bad, couldn't bear to see him lose again and have his spirit crushed. JD and Flash won today and the world makes sense, at least for now. I can go to bed happy now.
Same here bro :D So happy for Jaedong and Flash ! Hope it will give them more confidence at the MLG in June :D
On May 27 2012 18:01 blade55555 wrote: 1. Roach warren was late agreed, but when you see a robo you don't need it super fast
I disagree with this, there are definitely builds that do an ultra-fast +1 zealot push and get a robo at the same time. One of them was in the Haypro replay pack posted on teamliquidpro.com recently. Lizzy might not be a perfect SC2 player but I think he's capable of something like that, especially on a map with a hard-to-defend third.
Maybe he counted chronos on the core like a pro, because warpgate finished too late for this.
That's just silly to expect right now.Anyway, I guess the world is working like it should again, Flash soon to be Ace and Jaedong/Flash finally winning.
I wasn't paying close attention to the game, but what's all this talk about Jaedong not having his units up fast enough? I thought his ovies scouted Lizzy's base pretty thoroughly and knew Lizzy was going for a 3rd rather than 2-base pressure. Or did I miss something?
On May 27 2012 17:17 StorkHwaiting wrote: People are nuts saying JD was way ahead. Or else they're just clueless about ZvZ. When Jaedong's mutas were taking out CH's third, CH was already massing infestors. When CH had rebuilt his third and JD was just starting to tech up to infestor, CH already had 8 infestors out. That is a ridiculous advantage.
All JD did was deny the third and kill some ovies. In exchange for what? 1K+ in gas? CH dumped all that in infestors instead, so when the fight actually came, he had enough energy to spit out 30-40 infested terrans and fungal AND had a much higher hydra count.
JD did some good moves with the queen sniping and trapping that initial roach pressure with mass ling, but going muta was a horrible mistake. Muta along with double upgrades along with roach tunneling claws was just suicide. That's way too much gas being spent on shit that's not infestors. Infestors > all in ZvZ. Simple as that.
Violet played mutas vs. Stephano in MLG Spring Arena 2 and crushed him playing roach infestor.
The idea behind mutas in ZvZ is that they give you map control and the ability to take a third while denying your opponent's third. The fast infestor player has to stay on two bases until he gets infestors, at which time you, the muta player, is on three bases with six gases and is transitioning to roach infestor yourself. Your infestors are behind his in timing, but you're going to have a higher roach count due to better economy, which carries you into the late-game.
Jaedong's transitions were way too late. He was floating 2k minerals because he took the gases on the third late and had no gas for the units he wanted to build.
Your analysis has so many gaping holes in it, I don't even know where to begin but I guess I'll try once.
JD had map control with ling/banes. Not roaches. AKA he's not going to transition from muta to a higher roach count since he had no roaches to begin with. You're talking about a completely different opening and transition than what JD did in that game.
The build you're talking about is going mutas to counter a roach timing attack where you throw down a few spines, hold with spines and mutas, drive his roaches back and kill many of them, deny his third and pick off ovies. There's no way for him to get his third back because he sunk so much gas into a +1 up, speed, and roaches, so his infestors are going to be too slow to defend the mutas. By the time they're out and fungaling mutas, your third's been up for 3-4 minutes and saturated and your roach count is way up. That is NOT what happened in this game whatsoever.
No, the build I'm talking about is Violet's opening in every ZvZ, not contingent on his opponent going +1 roach attack. The build is solid because it is able to deal with both aggressive and defensive play. Roaches do not shoot up. Ling baneling do not shoot up. Queens do shoot up but a Zerg is not able to afford walking the 3-4 queens needed to defend against 7-8 mutas to his third. Preemptive spores do work, but it's a gamble that a lot of Zergs do not want to make because it puts them behind vs. builds that don't involve mutas.
What JD did was go ling/bane for pressure and map control. He got countered by roach DEFENSE, not a timing attack. After his bane/ling pressure was blocked, he went straight into mutas and spammed out as many of them as he could while building zero roaches. He spent a long time running around sniping ovies and spore crawlers, eventually took down the third, and then started his own expo.
In the meantime. CH just massed infestors on 2 base gas, extended his creep so his queens could defend against mutas, and calmly retook his third, dropping a bunch more spores to defend it from air. JD then dropped 550 gas on double ups, roach speed, and burrow. ALL of this before he ever put down an infestor pit or made any roaches.
So, basically, JD spent 1-1100 gas on mutas, 550 on upgrades, and still hadn't built a single roach or infestor. What part of that fits into your strategy of mutas taking map, denying third, and getting ahead in roach count while being slightly behind on infestor timing?
Just no. What happened was that 1600 fking gas JD blew on killing nothing but mineral units and buildings, was spent to buy a shit-ton of infestors for CH. Then CH went ahead and retook his third anyway, since JD couldn't sustain map control, thereby equaling the gas income.
So... CH is sitting on a massive advantage in gas units, has just as many roaches, and then because he's so far ahead, while JD got infestors, CH added on hydras. Then they clashed. JD had spines and half the amount of infestors with barely enough energy for one fungal. CH had max energy double count of infestors, hydras, and same roach count.
And your example of Violet vs Stephano doesn't make any sense because you haven't provided any relevant details. Just saying muta won vs roach/infestor doesn't mean anything. I could go 10 gas muta and beat a 2 gas roach/infestor and then say I won mutas vs roach/infestor.
There's a whole sequence of events that need to happen for the muta strategy you're talking about to play out the way I'm guessing Violet and Stephano's game did. Just saying some random stuff about "Violet's mutas pwnt Roach/infestor" is meaningless.
Jaedong made a lot of mistakes in that game, yes, but I was responding to you saying that infestors > all in ZvZ and that Jaedong going mutas was a terrible mistake. His mistake was not in making mutas, but in not expanding fast enough behind it, and that was obvious from the gas timings on his third.
Imagine that he had gone roaches, instead - CH was then free to take a third while Jaedong teched up to and built roaches, after which CH was simply ahead in the symmetrical mirror, no questions asked. With mutas, Jaedong gained an asymmetrical advantage, which in that game came down to him denying the third and killing a lot of queens and overlords. No, that doesn't prevent CH from making infestors with the gas deficit Jaedong pumped into mutas, but it does slow him down immensely, and not just because he lost minerals, but because of lost income, larvae injection, and supply blocked unit production.
In short, Jaedong did have an advantage that game, but failed to exploit it.
Hell, with 2k minerals and banked larvae he had the ability to throw down a dozen additional spine crawlers, which then makes his decision to counter attack a game winning move.
He lost because of poor execution, which is Jaedong's weakness in a lot of his games.
On May 27 2012 18:09 Hall0wed wrote: Nice to see Jaedong getting the win. Wish we could have seen the ace be against Flash but it is obvious that Lizzy is the current Ace for SC2 on KT.
This will not last. It's obvious the superstars are improving at a much faster rate than the specialists. Saw a big difference in JvP in just 1 weeks time. Flash will be ace again soon...
I'm glad that Lizzy got done early on in the season. I guess KT was relying on him to close out matches at least for the first half of the season, but now they're gonna have to rethink that. The spectators want to see bigname clashes, not TBLS vs rookies, so I hope we see more teams willing to send out their real ace like Team8 did today.
On another note, I'm surprised we haven't seen this kind of thing more often in Proleague so far. Against relatively inexperienced opponents, powerful strats which are easier to execute than defend (like 1/1/1, Stephano roaches, 7 gate blink all-in etc) should have a pretty high success rate, because these guys obviously have the micro to pull them off.
On May 27 2012 18:14 Exia0276 wrote: The Dong was just trolling us. Purposefully throwing the first game so he can make his ace match look more awesome
This logic is brilliance. I need to learn to think like you.
On May 27 2012 18:15 FuRong wrote: I'm glad that Lizzy got done early on in the season. I guess KT was relying on him to close out matches at least for the first half of the season, but now they're gonna have to rethink that. The spectators want to see bigname clashes, not TBLS vs rookies, so I hope we see more teams willing to send out their real ace like Team8 did today.
This doesn't make sense, Jaedong was a rookie once too. The real ace isn't the biggest name you have, it's your best player. If you think it's Lizzy you send him so you have the best chance to win. Also, sending rookies early in the season is the best time to give them experience (the Killer Oz syndrome).
On May 27 2012 18:15 FuRong wrote: I'm glad that Lizzy got done early on in the season. I guess KT was relying on him to close out matches at least for the first half of the season, but now they're gonna have to rethink that. The spectators want to see bigname clashes, not TBLS vs rookies, so I hope we see more teams willing to send out their real ace like Team8 did today.
This doesn't make sense, Jaedong was a rookie once too. The real ace isn't the biggest name you have, it's your best player. If you think it's Lizzy you send him so you have the best chance to win. Also, sending rookies early in the season is the best time to give them experience (the Killer Oz syndrome).
Your best player may not always have the mental strength and nerves to go for the ace match though. Experience matters too.
On May 27 2012 18:15 FuRong wrote: I'm glad that Lizzy got done early on in the season. I guess KT was relying on him to close out matches at least for the first half of the season, but now they're gonna have to rethink that. The spectators want to see bigname clashes, not TBLS vs rookies, so I hope we see more teams willing to send out their real ace like Team8 did today.
On another note, I'm surprised we haven't see this kind of thing more often in Proleague so far. Against relatively inexperienced opponents, powerful strats which are easier to execute than defend (like 1/1/1, Stephano roaches, 7 gate blink all-in etc) should have a pretty high success rate, because these guys obviously have the micro to pull them off.
We haven't seen many big timing attack builds because players are still learning basic macro games. It takes 100s of games to refine a cheese/timing attack, which at this stage in the learning process is a waste of time. But as shown today they are starting to do them, expect more as time goes on.
On May 27 2012 18:15 FuRong wrote: I'm glad that Lizzy got done early on in the season. I guess KT was relying on him to close out matches at least for the first half of the season, but now they're gonna have to rethink that. The spectators want to see bigname clashes, not TBLS vs rookies, so I hope we see more teams willing to send out their real ace like Team8 did today.
This doesn't make sense, Jaedong was a rookie once too. The real ace isn't the biggest name you have, it's your best player. If you think it's Lizzy you send him so you have the best chance to win. Also, sending rookies early in the season is the best time to give them experience (the Killer Oz syndrome).
Your best player may not always have the mental strength and nerves to go for the ace match though. Experience matters too.
Which is what they are prepaing him for to get over by playing him in both.
I wasn't paying close attention to the game, but what's all this talk about Jaedong not having his units up fast enough? I thought his ovies scouted Lizzy's base pretty thoroughly and knew Lizzy was going for a 3rd rather than 2-base pressure. Or did I miss something?
Oh no, it is the reverse. People where hyping that he potentially was a bit faster than the best foreign zerg who likes to do that 12 min max roach build.
I expect BW scrub-turned-SC2 specialists like Lizzy to die out soon by the second half of the season, where the BW superstars will regain their throne.
On May 27 2012 18:15 FuRong wrote: I'm glad that Lizzy got done early on in the season. I guess KT was relying on him to close out matches at least for the first half of the season, but now they're gonna have to rethink that. The spectators want to see bigname clashes, not TBLS vs rookies, so I hope we see more teams willing to send out their real ace like Team8 did today.
This doesn't make sense, Jaedong was a rookie once too. The real ace isn't the biggest name you have, it's your best player. If you think it's Lizzy you send him so you have the best chance to win. Also, sending rookies early in the season is the best time to give them experience (the Killer Oz syndrome).
Your best player may not always have the mental strength and nerves to go for the ace match though. Experience matters too.
Which is what they are prepaing him for to get over by playing him in both.
Right..forgive me its 5 am haha i'm going full retard logic here.
On May 27 2012 18:15 FuRong wrote: I'm glad that Lizzy got done early on in the season. I guess KT was relying on him to close out matches at least for the first half of the season, but now they're gonna have to rethink that. The spectators want to see bigname clashes, not TBLS vs rookies, so I hope we see more teams willing to send out their real ace like Team8 did today.
This doesn't make sense, Jaedong was a rookie once too. The real ace isn't the biggest name you have, it's your best player. If you think it's Lizzy you send him so you have the best chance to win. Also, sending rookies early in the season is the best time to give them experience (the Killer Oz syndrome).
Your best player may not always have the mental strength and nerves to go for the ace match though. Experience matters too.
Lizzy practice SC2 throughout season 1 when Flash was winning BW games every week. So he actually has more experience. You can argue he lacks TV time, but he's much more experienced than Flash in SC2.
Also, the last time Flash played a zerg, he died the exact same way that Lizzy did this game. Flash played a macro game, letting the zerg know that no pressure's coming and power drone... then get overrun by a massive zerg army.
On May 27 2012 18:15 FuRong wrote: I'm glad that Lizzy got done early on in the season. I guess KT was relying on him to close out matches at least for the first half of the season, but now they're gonna have to rethink that. The spectators want to see bigname clashes, not TBLS vs rookies, so I hope we see more teams willing to send out their real ace like Team8 did today.
This doesn't make sense, Jaedong was a rookie once too. The real ace isn't the biggest name you have, it's your best player. If you think it's Lizzy you send him so you have the best chance to win. Also, sending rookies early in the season is the best time to give them experience (the Killer Oz syndrome).
Your best player may not always have the mental strength and nerves to go for the ace match though. Experience matters too.
Which is what they are prepaing him for to get over by playing him in both.
Right..forgive me its 5 am haha i'm going full retard logic here.
So has anyone else noticed that Flash likes his tanks unsieged. To me this is kinda interesting to see, as most progamers tend to hit the siege button asap when they see enemies, whether it's too late of a siege or not. Kinda cool to see Flash calmly just leave this tanks unsieged in smaller engagements.
On May 27 2012 18:15 FuRong wrote: I'm glad that Lizzy got done early on in the season. I guess KT was relying on him to close out matches at least for the first half of the season, but now they're gonna have to rethink that. The spectators want to see bigname clashes, not TBLS vs rookies, so I hope we see more teams willing to send out their real ace like Team8 did today.
On another note, I'm surprised we haven't seen this kind of thing more often in Proleague so far. Against relatively inexperienced opponents, powerful strats which are easier to execute than defend (like 1/1/1, Stephano roaches, 7 gate blink all-in etc) should have a pretty high success rate, because these guys obviously have the micro to pull them off.
I agree ! Bw players don't make any colossus and also never allin in sc2, it's like they were told to make the game look good :p When PL started I was really afraid that the sc2 part would just be an allin fest...and it isn't. Great day anyway :=)
I love KT, but it's good to see Jaedong winning a game. It really sucked to see him lose, and people were kind of saying how he wasn't as good at SCII. Well, suck it.
On May 27 2012 18:15 FuRong wrote: I'm glad that Lizzy got done early on in the season. I guess KT was relying on him to close out matches at least for the first half of the season, but now they're gonna have to rethink that. The spectators want to see bigname clashes, not TBLS vs rookies, so I hope we see more teams willing to send out their real ace like Team8 did today.
On another note, I'm surprised we haven't seen this kind of thing more often in Proleague so far. Against relatively inexperienced opponents, powerful strats which are easier to execute than defend (like 1/1/1, Stephano roaches, 7 gate blink all-in etc) should have a pretty high success rate, because these guys obviously have the micro to pull them off.
I agree ! Bw players don't make any colossus and also never allin in sc2, it's like they were told to make the game look good :p When PL started I was really afraid that the sc2 part would just be an allin fest...and it isn't. Great day anyway :=)
? Many PvZ's have been 2 base all ins, there were cheese games, several Protoss players made collossus...
On May 27 2012 19:03 Zealously wrote: I love KT, but it's good to see Jaedong winning a game. It really sucked to see him lose, and people were kind of saying how he wasn't as good at SCII. Well, suck it.
Ya he stepped it up definitley. The best part being that he lost the first match then came back in the ace unphased and rolled through the toss for that first SC2 win. The mark of a champ at heart.
On May 27 2012 18:35 namste wrote: So has anyone else noticed that Flash likes his tanks unsieged. To me this is kinda interesting to see, as most progamers tend to hit the siege button asap when they see enemies, whether it's too late of a siege or not. Kinda cool to see Flash calmly just leave this tanks unsieged in smaller engagements.
Maybe he brought it over from BW. He used to do a lot of un-seiged tank play vs protoss when others always hit siege mode, still does when hes on boss macro mode.
On May 27 2012 21:20 GeForceFX wrote: -_- how do we not have vods..
are you serious there's a tab in the OP that says VODS.
No no. I mean the actually watchable ones. Like the HD ones :O!!
Oh haha, I don't know what the deal is with that sorry Maybe Sayle's stream has the vods up there, but it would be an english cast.
Its TV quality, there won't be a HD stream for a while i don't think.
We have an HD stream while the games are running, the VLC url in the OP is 30fps 720p. I would assume they can upload HD vods but they just choose to use the ones from the youtube stream.
On May 27 2012 21:20 GeForceFX wrote: -_- how do we not have vods..
are you serious there's a tab in the OP that says VODS.
No no. I mean the actually watchable ones. Like the HD ones :O!!
Oh haha, I don't know what the deal is with that sorry Maybe Sayle's stream has the vods up there, but it would be an english cast.
Its TV quality, there won't be a HD stream for a while i don't think.
We have an HD stream while the games are running, the VLC url in the OP is 30fps 720p. I would assume they can upload HD vods but they just choose to use the ones from the youtube stream.
Exactly. If they can stream at HD, they can surely make the vods available. Or at least someone else can record them meanwhile. While I really like sayles commentating, the bitrate of his stream just isn't cutting it :\
On May 27 2012 21:20 GeForceFX wrote: -_- how do we not have vods..
are you serious there's a tab in the OP that says VODS.
No no. I mean the actually watchable ones. Like the HD ones :O!!
Oh haha, I don't know what the deal is with that sorry Maybe Sayle's stream has the vods up there, but it would be an english cast.
Its TV quality, there won't be a HD stream for a while i don't think.
We have an HD stream while the games are running, the VLC url in the OP is 30fps 720p. I would assume they can upload HD vods but they just choose to use the ones from the youtube stream.
Exactly. If they can stream at HD, they can surely make the vods available. Or at least someone else can record them meanwhile. While I really like sayles commentating, the bitrate of his stream just isn't cutting it :\
Oh ok, then yeah it makes sense to use the 720p stream.
On May 27 2012 21:20 GeForceFX wrote: -_- how do we not have vods..
are you serious there's a tab in the OP that says VODS.
No no. I mean the actually watchable ones. Like the HD ones :O!!
Oh haha, I don't know what the deal is with that sorry Maybe Sayle's stream has the vods up there, but it would be an english cast.
Its TV quality, there won't be a HD stream for a while i don't think.
We have an HD stream while the games are running, the VLC url in the OP is 30fps 720p. I would assume they can upload HD vods but they just choose to use the ones from the youtube stream.
OGN's HD stream is an insanneee bitrate it's like, faster than my connection half the time. I need to buffer eight seconds :o
On May 27 2012 22:39 ZenithM wrote: Is there like a mutual agreement to only have mirror matches on SC2? :D
Nah just coach metagame is really solid. You always want a mirror matchup when you feel the other team is better than you, in order to force a dice roll which has a higher win-rate over a more stable matchup where you are more likely to lose.
The problem is neither team knows how good the other players are really, so they are analysing which players are likely to play on what maps and play dice, because that's the "safest" option for both teams. Of course they are not always going to be 100% correct, but the BW coaches are much better at picking players than GSTL coaches.
Looks like JD has been watching Stephano vods, lol. It's great to see the Tyrant getting the hang of SC2. Can't wait to see what his game looks like in 5 months.
On May 27 2012 23:08 s3rp wrote: Is it me or do the Kespa Terran all-open up just 1 Rax expand every game ? No wonder they don't perform so well if they only play 1 opening.
On May 27 2012 23:08 s3rp wrote: Is it me or do the Kespa Terran all-open up just 1 Rax expand every game ? No wonder they don't perform so well if they only play 1 opening.
So far, Flash opens 14cc every game :p but yeah, I know what you mean. I think they still don't feel comfortable using other openings.... it's like they're just trying to get comfortable with one style of play before they move on to trying different builds. I'm sure it won't be like that for long, though.
When I watched the Ace match I got a feeling I havnt gotten yet while watching SC2. The intensity of the game and the way it was observed (OGN observers are fucking sick...) in conjunction with the commentators was just sooooo good. I was really on my feet during the entire match!
Ofc I'm a JD fan, but still havnt had that feeling yet in SC2! I can't wait for what the future holds :D
I like how people are way over hyping the Ace match, sure JD played alright but you have to take into account that his opponent played like crap. Do they have some agreement to not make any colossi or something? A few colossi would've changed everything.
On May 28 2012 04:54 namste wrote: I like how people are way over hyping the Ace match, sure JD played alright but you have to take into account that his opponent played like crap. Do they have some agreement to not make any colossi or something? A few colossi would've changed everything.
And you think if Jaedong saw Robotics Bay, he wouldn't build a few corruptors? He had good scouting before that 3rd base attack, he knew exactly what protoss was doing.
On May 28 2012 04:54 namste wrote: I like how people are way over hyping the Ace match, sure JD played alright but you have to take into account that his opponent played like crap. Do they have some agreement to not make any colossi or something? A few colossi would've changed everything.
Come to think of it, has there really been anyone in Pro League that's used collosi?
On May 28 2012 04:54 namste wrote: I like how people are way over hyping the Ace match, sure JD played alright but you have to take into account that his opponent played like crap. Do they have some agreement to not make any colossi or something? A few colossi would've changed everything.
That isn't really viable when taking a third base at the timing he did. You either need an earlier third or to make colossus before even getting it, otherwise you're too vulnerable. He lost due to taking a late third and wasting too many forcefields by being out on the map instead of playing defensively.
On May 28 2012 04:54 namste wrote: I like how people are way over hyping the Ace match, sure JD played alright but you have to take into account that his opponent played like crap. Do they have some agreement to not make any colossi or something? A few colossi would've changed everything.
Come to think of it, has there really been anyone in Pro League that's used collosi?
Jangbi used Collosi, LOL. There's been some colossus play here and there but the Kespa toss tend to opt for storm tech.
On May 28 2012 04:54 namste wrote: I like how people are way over hyping the Ace match, sure JD played alright but you have to take into account that his opponent played like crap. Do they have some agreement to not make any colossi or something? A few colossi would've changed everything.
Uh what? Colossi certainly isn't the way to deal with the max roach timing.. Early third then +2/blink stalkers or +1/+1 immortal are much more viable options. You can have maybe 2 collossi at 12 minutes and they'll accomplish absolutely nothing.
On May 28 2012 03:10 Kyuki wrote: When I watched the Ace match I got a feeling I havnt gotten yet while watching SC2. The intensity of the game and the way it was observed (OGN observers are fucking sick...) in conjunction with the commentators was just sooooo good. I was really on my feet during the entire match!
Ofc I'm a JD fan, but still havnt had that feeling yet in SC2! I can't wait for what the future holds :D
JD HwaITHIng~¨¨!111!
I know what you mean. You get the feeling like these guys just bring a new intensity to the game.
On May 28 2012 03:10 Kyuki wrote: When I watched the Ace match I got a feeling I havnt gotten yet while watching SC2. The intensity of the game and the way it was observed (OGN observers are fucking sick...) in conjunction with the commentators was just sooooo good. I was really on my feet during the entire match!
Ofc I'm a JD fan, but still havnt had that feeling yet in SC2! I can't wait for what the future holds :D
JD HwaITHIng~¨¨!111!
I know what you mean. You get the feeling like these guys just bring a new intensity to the game.
Looks like bw fanboyism can overcome anything, even sc2 hatred.
On May 28 2012 04:54 namste wrote: I like how people are way over hyping the Ace match, sure JD played alright but you have to take into account that his opponent played like crap. Do they have some agreement to not make any colossi or something? A few colossi would've changed everything.
I thought he played excellently. The style of aggression he used is very difficult to execute (attacking two fronts, constantly pulling back to avoid FFs, the actual A-move engagement isn't), he transitioned well, and he put on constant pressure. I thought Lizzy played quite well, I don't think there's a Protoss in the world that's figured out how to handle that style yet, and Antiga is really hard in that regard because you're forced to be on the low ground to defend.
On May 28 2012 03:10 Kyuki wrote: When I watched the Ace match I got a feeling I havnt gotten yet while watching SC2. The intensity of the game and the way it was observed (OGN observers are fucking sick...) in conjunction with the commentators was just sooooo good. I was really on my feet during the entire match!
Ofc I'm a JD fan, but still havnt had that feeling yet in SC2! I can't wait for what the future holds :D
JD HwaITHIng~¨¨!111!
I know what you mean. You get the feeling like these guys just bring a new intensity to the game.
Looks like bw fanboyism can overcome anything, even sc2 hatred.
Those Korean commentators and fangirl screams brought chills down my spine. Especially those fangirl screams. I mean, just listen to those screams after the end of the match. Truly epic.
This is exactly what KeSPA was hoping for when they decided to switch to SC2.
On May 28 2012 03:10 Kyuki wrote: When I watched the Ace match I got a feeling I havnt gotten yet while watching SC2. The intensity of the game and the way it was observed (OGN observers are fucking sick...) in conjunction with the commentators was just sooooo good. I was really on my feet during the entire match!
Ofc I'm a JD fan, but still havnt had that feeling yet in SC2! I can't wait for what the future holds :D
JD HwaITHIng~¨¨!111!
I know what you mean. You get the feeling like these guys just bring a new intensity to the game.
Looks like bw fanboyism can overcome anything, even sc2 hatred.
lol. So true. But I have to admit, I do love watching JD transfer his skills over to SC2. Also, I find it awesome that his main inspiration for SC2 zerg is Stephano.
On May 28 2012 03:10 Kyuki wrote: When I watched the Ace match I got a feeling I havnt gotten yet while watching SC2. The intensity of the game and the way it was observed (OGN observers are fucking sick...) in conjunction with the commentators was just sooooo good. I was really on my feet during the entire match!
Ofc I'm a JD fan, but still havnt had that feeling yet in SC2! I can't wait for what the future holds :D
JD HwaITHIng~¨¨!111!
I know what you mean. You get the feeling like these guys just bring a new intensity to the game.
Looks like bw fanboyism can overcome anything, even sc2 hatred.
Those Korean commentators and fangirl screams brought chills down my spine. Especially those fangirl screams. I mean, just listen to those screams after the end of the match. Truly epic.
This is exactly what KeSPA was hoping for when they decided to switch to SC2.
Nothing in this world can be compared to the screams of JD fangirls.
On May 28 2012 03:10 Kyuki wrote: When I watched the Ace match I got a feeling I havnt gotten yet while watching SC2. The intensity of the game and the way it was observed (OGN observers are fucking sick...) in conjunction with the commentators was just sooooo good. I was really on my feet during the entire match!
Ofc I'm a JD fan, but still havnt had that feeling yet in SC2! I can't wait for what the future holds :D
JD HwaITHIng~¨¨!111!
I know what you mean. You get the feeling like these guys just bring a new intensity to the game.
Looks like bw fanboyism can overcome anything, even sc2 hatred.
I think you are generalising the majority through the actions of a rude vocal minority. Checkout the BW version of this thread, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised.
On May 28 2012 04:54 namste wrote: I like how people are way over hyping the Ace match, sure JD played alright but you have to take into account that his opponent played like crap. Do they have some agreement to not make any colossi or something? A few colossi would've changed everything.
The theorycraft is strong with this one, half the reason why I never bother to visit SC2 LR Threads, its full of backseat coaching, balance whine, and talking down other players. Actually old LR threads did have a bit of it but not the kind of drivel I see in GSL LR Threads.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/e8Wd0.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3dBHR.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oBSiY.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pHNkJ.png)
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jieA1.png)
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Wooki <Neo Ground Zero> 
Ryul2
Flash <Cloud Kingdom> ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zeRvZ.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9XBeU.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mg8TA.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/i8OLq.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/HawaiianPig/SPL/hybrid/jd.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/riptide/proleague200809/pl_sf_jaedongstare.jpg)
and changing Antiga to cross-only and non-gold.
![[image loading]](http://220.90.201.36/news/43/43800/96e143a4c21a216cd439425c5e55da83.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/R1CH/Happy2.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TzO8q.jpg)
