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[GSTL] 2012 Season 1 Pennant Race Group A Match 5 - Page 79

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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Fionn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States23455 Posts
March 23 2012 12:42 GMT
#1561
Sweet, MVP vs. HoSeo/ST at an ice rink next week.
Writerhttps://twitter.com/FionnOnFire
vndods
Profile Joined October 2011
United States3743 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-23 12:43:02
March 23 2012 12:42 GMT
#1562
On March 23 2012 21:41 silverstyle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:38 Rammstorm wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:34 Vindicare605 wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:33 Tek_ wrote:
A perfect example of why the Phoenix upgrade is crap, killing all the Mutas isn't enough (even with perfect control) as the next tech switch is unstoppable.


the ugprade does what its supposed to do, allow Protoss to kill huge numbers of mutas.

What? You want a single unit that kills everything Zerg can throw at you? Sorry, this game doesn't work that way.


Archons say Hi


Roaches say Hi too..

Marauders say hi as well.

jkjk
FXOBoSs
Profile Joined August 2011
337 Posts
March 23 2012 12:42 GMT
#1563
See you in korea for the match vs prime!!!!!!!! :D::D:D:D:D
www.twitter.com/gosutrading
Corrosive
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada3741 Posts
March 23 2012 12:42 GMT
#1564
On March 23 2012 21:41 Tek_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:35 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:33 Tek_ wrote:
A perfect example of why the Phoenix upgrade is crap, killing all the Mutas isn't enough (even with perfect control) as the next tech switch is unstoppable.

Not really; he didn't even micro his phoenix well enough to utilise the upgrade. Also it was designed to help against zerg who mass mass mass mutas. Against players who make just a dozen or so then switch out of it you obviously want a much more measured response.


The micro didn't matter, at all, but the rest of your post is correct. As a Protoss you just cannot go for the Phoenix upgrade to deal with Mutas, the only way it works is if the Zerg keeps building Mutas after seeing the Phoenixes which no competent Zerg would do. Anyway, GG to Leenock, he played really well in a normally tough ZvP map.

I think it was made so you can respond phoenix when the zerg makes like 30+ mutas.
Maruprime.
ragnorr
Profile Joined April 2011
Denmark6097 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-23 12:44:26
March 23 2012 12:43 GMT
#1565
On March 23 2012 21:41 elwoodng wrote:
can anyone summarize the last game for me? I can't find the LR unfortunately and I missed it.

Hero failed to damage with his stargate push, leenock got to huge of an econ and threw wave after wave of unit preventing hero from getting a third while he went to 5 bases till hero finally fell
storywriter
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia528 Posts
March 23 2012 12:43 GMT
#1566
On March 23 2012 21:41 rothsbury wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:37 itsjuspeter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:35 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:33 Tek_ wrote:
A perfect example of why the Phoenix upgrade is crap, killing all the Mutas isn't enough (even with perfect control) as the next tech switch is unstoppable.

Not really; he didn't even micro his phoenix well enough to utilise the upgrade. Also it was designed to help against zerg who mass mass mass mutas. Against players who make just a dozen or so then switch out of it you obviously want a much more measured response.


How can anyone predict how many mutas a zerg make? It's really easy to go from pressing M to pressing R, I'm really sad hero lost he looks devastated.

It takes a lot of time to mass a huge amount of mutas (to the point that the phoenix upgrade becomes necessary). So you should be able to tell if the zerg is building to that point, unless he's doing something stupid like hiding mutas or saving a fuckton of gas. A zerg suddenly building a lot of mutas is definitely a challenge, but the his economy limits how many he can suddenly make, and that many mutas can be dealt with without the phoenix upgrade.

it takes even longer to make phoenixes so unless the zerg is blind, according to your argument, he will switch out of mutas. which leads to the conclusion that the phoenix upgrade has no place in the current metagame.
Translator
mcjinzo
Profile Joined July 2010
79 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-23 12:45:23
March 23 2012 12:43 GMT
#1567
people and casters are really underestimating how hard phoenix micro is even with the range upgrade. phoenix dont stop when they shoot so if your chasing mutas you have to constantly be ready for the semi second the mutas stop and shoot a volley with the splash it can trade really well against phoenix. you basically can only focus on microing your phoenix or you will lose them to decent muta control (lol leenock)

also with leenock attacking into the third or natural....
SeventhPride
Profile Joined February 2012
712 Posts
March 23 2012 12:43 GMT
#1568
On March 23 2012 21:41 elwoodng wrote:
can anyone summarize the last game for me? I can't find the LR unfortunately and I missed it.

Leenock wins, hero lose.

Hero messed up, pressure I guess. Use 1 control group to fight mutas.

Loses collosus.

Loses nexus

Losing to mutas with 3 range advantage.

Leenock didn't fall for any of the tricks hero pulled to bait him to drone less. Basically thats it
dainbramage
Profile Joined August 2011
Australia1442 Posts
March 23 2012 12:43 GMT
#1569
On March 23 2012 21:40 Gamegene wrote:
TLO says this a lot: the best way to deal with phoenix is just have a lot of larvae.


Hell I remember people making jokes about Mondragon countering phoenixes with roaches back in TSL3
vndods
Profile Joined October 2011
United States3743 Posts
March 23 2012 12:43 GMT
#1570
On March 23 2012 21:42 Fragile51 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:41 bittman wrote:
I can't see the finals not being MVP vs Prime. It's an upset if anything other than that happens.


I sure hope it will be. With Prime winning this time!

YEAH like in the KSL. dat MKP/Byun/Creator combo.
kubiks
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
France1328 Posts
March 23 2012 12:43 GMT
#1571
On March 23 2012 21:41 elwoodng wrote:
can anyone summarize the last game for me? I can't find the LR unfortunately and I missed it.


Hero open FFE stargate while leenock go for the standard 3 bases.
Hero get fully scouted and don't do many dmg with stargate (except deying some creep and the 4th for a time).
Leenock go for mutas, and hero decide to go fo the new upgrade.
Leenock manage to snipe the third of hero and then rally units and kill hero
Juanald you're my hero I miss you -> best troll ever on TL <3
storywriter
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia528 Posts
March 23 2012 12:44 GMT
#1572
On March 23 2012 21:42 Corrosive wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:41 Tek_ wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:35 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:33 Tek_ wrote:
A perfect example of why the Phoenix upgrade is crap, killing all the Mutas isn't enough (even with perfect control) as the next tech switch is unstoppable.

Not really; he didn't even micro his phoenix well enough to utilise the upgrade. Also it was designed to help against zerg who mass mass mass mutas. Against players who make just a dozen or so then switch out of it you obviously want a much more measured response.


The micro didn't matter, at all, but the rest of your post is correct. As a Protoss you just cannot go for the Phoenix upgrade to deal with Mutas, the only way it works is if the Zerg keeps building Mutas after seeing the Phoenixes which no competent Zerg would do. Anyway, GG to Leenock, he played really well in a normally tough ZvP map.

I think it was made so you can respond phoenix when the zerg makes like 30+ mutas.

this is a terrible argument. the phoenix upgrade is powerful and everything but 2 phoenixes will not kill 30+ mutas.
Translator
SeventhPride
Profile Joined February 2012
712 Posts
March 23 2012 12:44 GMT
#1573
On March 23 2012 21:43 storywriter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:41 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:37 itsjuspeter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:35 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:33 Tek_ wrote:
A perfect example of why the Phoenix upgrade is crap, killing all the Mutas isn't enough (even with perfect control) as the next tech switch is unstoppable.

Not really; he didn't even micro his phoenix well enough to utilise the upgrade. Also it was designed to help against zerg who mass mass mass mutas. Against players who make just a dozen or so then switch out of it you obviously want a much more measured response.


How can anyone predict how many mutas a zerg make? It's really easy to go from pressing M to pressing R, I'm really sad hero lost he looks devastated.

It takes a lot of time to mass a huge amount of mutas (to the point that the phoenix upgrade becomes necessary). So you should be able to tell if the zerg is building to that point, unless he's doing something stupid like hiding mutas or saving a fuckton of gas. A zerg suddenly building a lot of mutas is definitely a challenge, but the his economy limits how many he can suddenly make, and that many mutas can be dealt with without the phoenix upgrade.

it takes even longer to make phoenixes so unless the zerg is blind, according to your argument, he will switch out of mutas. which leads to the conclusion that the phoenix upgrade has no place in the current metagame.

You only need 6 phoenix to deal with a huge ball of mutas with that upgrade. and you can actually kill a zerg since he needs time to switch tech.
silverstyle
Profile Joined May 2011
Singapore1108 Posts
March 23 2012 12:45 GMT
#1574
On March 23 2012 21:35 mandigal wrote:
Stephano said the moment he saw White-Ra using the range upgrade he know he would win the game cause Phoenix are a shit unit otherwise.


Yup, he said it on SoTG. Actually what he said was more ridiculous like:

the moment i LOST my mutas was when I knew I won the game, because phoenixes are a shit unit.

Blink stalker and storm answer to mutas is probably the better choice, phoenixes are only good in a pinch when you get caught off guard by mutas during stargate play.
Liquid`HerO!!!
bittman
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia8759 Posts
March 23 2012 12:45 GMT
#1575
On March 23 2012 21:42 FXOBoSs wrote:
See you in korea for the match vs prime!!!!!!!! :D::D:D:D:D


Congrats Boss! =D

(You won't beat MVP though =P)

Though in all honesty, best of luck next week. That's the real finals for you guys. If you can beat MVP I imagine it would be like christmas for FXO =D
Mvp - Leenock - Dongraegu - MC - Gumiho - Keen - Polt - Squirtle - Jjakji - Genius - Seed - Life - sC - Dream || LG-IM - MVP - FXO
mcjinzo
Profile Joined July 2010
79 Posts
March 23 2012 12:46 GMT
#1576
On March 23 2012 21:44 SeventhPride wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:43 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:41 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:37 itsjuspeter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:35 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:33 Tek_ wrote:
A perfect example of why the Phoenix upgrade is crap, killing all the Mutas isn't enough (even with perfect control) as the next tech switch is unstoppable.

Not really; he didn't even micro his phoenix well enough to utilise the upgrade. Also it was designed to help against zerg who mass mass mass mutas. Against players who make just a dozen or so then switch out of it you obviously want a much more measured response.


How can anyone predict how many mutas a zerg make? It's really easy to go from pressing M to pressing R, I'm really sad hero lost he looks devastated.

It takes a lot of time to mass a huge amount of mutas (to the point that the phoenix upgrade becomes necessary). So you should be able to tell if the zerg is building to that point, unless he's doing something stupid like hiding mutas or saving a fuckton of gas. A zerg suddenly building a lot of mutas is definitely a challenge, but the his economy limits how many he can suddenly make, and that many mutas can be dealt with without the phoenix upgrade.

it takes even longer to make phoenixes so unless the zerg is blind, according to your argument, he will switch out of mutas. which leads to the conclusion that the phoenix upgrade has no place in the current metagame.

You only need 6 phoenix to deal with a huge ball of mutas with that upgrade. and you can actually kill a zerg since he needs time to switch tech.


did you watch that game? leenock already had roaches hydras and banelings.... yea he teched to infestors but the game was over by then.
storywriter
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia528 Posts
March 23 2012 12:47 GMT
#1577
On March 23 2012 21:44 SeventhPride wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:43 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:41 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:37 itsjuspeter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:35 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:33 Tek_ wrote:
A perfect example of why the Phoenix upgrade is crap, killing all the Mutas isn't enough (even with perfect control) as the next tech switch is unstoppable.

Not really; he didn't even micro his phoenix well enough to utilise the upgrade. Also it was designed to help against zerg who mass mass mass mutas. Against players who make just a dozen or so then switch out of it you obviously want a much more measured response.


How can anyone predict how many mutas a zerg make? It's really easy to go from pressing M to pressing R, I'm really sad hero lost he looks devastated.

It takes a lot of time to mass a huge amount of mutas (to the point that the phoenix upgrade becomes necessary). So you should be able to tell if the zerg is building to that point, unless he's doing something stupid like hiding mutas or saving a fuckton of gas. A zerg suddenly building a lot of mutas is definitely a challenge, but the his economy limits how many he can suddenly make, and that many mutas can be dealt with without the phoenix upgrade.

it takes even longer to make phoenixes so unless the zerg is blind, according to your argument, he will switch out of mutas. which leads to the conclusion that the phoenix upgrade has no place in the current metagame.

You only need 6 phoenix to deal with a huge ball of mutas with that upgrade. and you can actually kill a zerg since he needs time to switch tech.

firstly, 6 is a huge exaggeration. secondly, if the zerg player just micros his mutas away, the phoenixes cannot engage and later on, in a head-head fight, the mutas will be engage all they want, especially in a situation like this game where the Z is heavily pressuring a protoss taking a third (which happens in 80% of PvZs that I see)
Translator
KristofferAG
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Norway25712 Posts
March 23 2012 12:47 GMT
#1578
Oh well, was fun watching. Can't wait till Monday!
@KristofferAG | http://vestkyststoy.bandcamp.com | last.fm/user/KristofferAG
Probasaur
Profile Joined August 2011
United States461 Posts
March 23 2012 12:48 GMT
#1579
On March 23 2012 21:34 Asha` wrote:
LEEEEEEEENOOOCCCCKKKKK!!

so beast mode, in the age old history of TL SC2 LR threads, Outclassed!

grats FXO.



YEAH okay, "outclassed" considering Hero has beaten better players than Leenock.


Leenock can make a ton of units, rally them to opponents base, and split them into two groups and attack at two points. Zerg can lose endless units while doing terrible, terrible damage.


The one thing that bothers me the most that I experience more than anything is the ability of zerg to snipe the Nexus even tho you respond to the attack before they even start sniping it just like what happened just now to Hero. The zerglings will kill it every time. I don't see how there is anything Hero could have done there.... I'm going to try and remember that and build a sim city around my nexus from now on. Although they still will have more than enough surface area on the mining side to snipe it within an instant. I guess thats why Blizz is correcting their mistake with the nexus abilities being implemented in HoTS. With that and Recall I feel that toss will finally be on even playing field in the midgame. Early and latgame its dead even IMO.


Really happy for Choya and FXO, but after I saw Hero play that incredible game against asd I started wanting my favorite player to lead his team to a win and further towards Vegas. Disappointing but not really because CHOYA FIGHTING!! FXO FIGHTING!!!


and.... Leenock Fighting!! He is a serious beast there's no denying that. I just find that style of zerg boring to just send endless waves at your opponent, even tho they die over and over it doesnt matter how many times you defend because all they have to do is trade 500 zerg units for every 1 toss unit... until they win.
"He who makes a beast of himself.... gets rid of the pain of being a man" -Hunter S Thompson.
SeventhPride
Profile Joined February 2012
712 Posts
March 23 2012 12:48 GMT
#1580
On March 23 2012 21:46 mcjinzo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:44 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:43 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:41 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:37 itsjuspeter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:35 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:33 Tek_ wrote:
A perfect example of why the Phoenix upgrade is crap, killing all the Mutas isn't enough (even with perfect control) as the next tech switch is unstoppable.

Not really; he didn't even micro his phoenix well enough to utilise the upgrade. Also it was designed to help against zerg who mass mass mass mutas. Against players who make just a dozen or so then switch out of it you obviously want a much more measured response.


How can anyone predict how many mutas a zerg make? It's really easy to go from pressing M to pressing R, I'm really sad hero lost he looks devastated.

It takes a lot of time to mass a huge amount of mutas (to the point that the phoenix upgrade becomes necessary). So you should be able to tell if the zerg is building to that point, unless he's doing something stupid like hiding mutas or saving a fuckton of gas. A zerg suddenly building a lot of mutas is definitely a challenge, but the his economy limits how many he can suddenly make, and that many mutas can be dealt with without the phoenix upgrade.

it takes even longer to make phoenixes so unless the zerg is blind, according to your argument, he will switch out of mutas. which leads to the conclusion that the phoenix upgrade has no place in the current metagame.

You only need 6 phoenix to deal with a huge ball of mutas with that upgrade. and you can actually kill a zerg since he needs time to switch tech.


did you watch that game? leenock already had roaches hydras and banelings.... yea he teched to infestors but the game was over by then.

Yes I did, leenock tech to hydras BECAUSE of the void rays. hero botch a void ray push and didn't scout leenock when leenock did the muta switch. That was one of the key moments AND he didn't pull his probes, did you see how many probes got killed when the mutas came out? He literally didnt even try to pull them away
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