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[GSTL] 2012 Season 1 Pennant Race Group A Match 5 - Page 80

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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Fionn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States23455 Posts
March 23 2012 12:48 GMT
#1581
I've never really liked TheWind's picks (seeing as even with MC, they never made it past a GSTL semifinal), but Choya is continually one of the best coaches when it comes to match-ups. Even when fOu was at it's weakest, they still did better than more stacked teams like oGs and Prime due to how they forced good snipes/favorable matches.

Prime vs. FXO should be good.
Writerhttps://twitter.com/FionnOnFire
SeventhPride
Profile Joined February 2012
712 Posts
March 23 2012 12:48 GMT
#1582
On March 23 2012 21:47 storywriter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:44 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:43 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:41 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:37 itsjuspeter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:35 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:33 Tek_ wrote:
A perfect example of why the Phoenix upgrade is crap, killing all the Mutas isn't enough (even with perfect control) as the next tech switch is unstoppable.

Not really; he didn't even micro his phoenix well enough to utilise the upgrade. Also it was designed to help against zerg who mass mass mass mutas. Against players who make just a dozen or so then switch out of it you obviously want a much more measured response.


How can anyone predict how many mutas a zerg make? It's really easy to go from pressing M to pressing R, I'm really sad hero lost he looks devastated.

It takes a lot of time to mass a huge amount of mutas (to the point that the phoenix upgrade becomes necessary). So you should be able to tell if the zerg is building to that point, unless he's doing something stupid like hiding mutas or saving a fuckton of gas. A zerg suddenly building a lot of mutas is definitely a challenge, but the his economy limits how many he can suddenly make, and that many mutas can be dealt with without the phoenix upgrade.

it takes even longer to make phoenixes so unless the zerg is blind, according to your argument, he will switch out of mutas. which leads to the conclusion that the phoenix upgrade has no place in the current metagame.

You only need 6 phoenix to deal with a huge ball of mutas with that upgrade. and you can actually kill a zerg since he needs time to switch tech.

firstly, 6 is a huge exaggeration. secondly, if the zerg player just micros his mutas away, the phoenixes cannot engage and later on, in a head-head fight, the mutas will be engage all they want, especially in a situation like this game where the Z is heavily pressuring a protoss taking a third (which happens in 80% of PvZs that I see)

What are you talking about?!?! Phoenixes move faster then mutas. What do you mean phoenix can't engage?
R1CH
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Netherlands10341 Posts
March 23 2012 12:49 GMT
#1583
That was heartbreaking to watch as a HerO fan . Not sure I like the booth cameras any more .
AdministratorTwitter: @R1CH_TL
TL+ Member
storywriter
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia528 Posts
March 23 2012 12:50 GMT
#1584
On March 23 2012 21:48 SeventhPride wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:47 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:44 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:43 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:41 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:37 itsjuspeter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:35 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:33 Tek_ wrote:
A perfect example of why the Phoenix upgrade is crap, killing all the Mutas isn't enough (even with perfect control) as the next tech switch is unstoppable.

Not really; he didn't even micro his phoenix well enough to utilise the upgrade. Also it was designed to help against zerg who mass mass mass mutas. Against players who make just a dozen or so then switch out of it you obviously want a much more measured response.


How can anyone predict how many mutas a zerg make? It's really easy to go from pressing M to pressing R, I'm really sad hero lost he looks devastated.

It takes a lot of time to mass a huge amount of mutas (to the point that the phoenix upgrade becomes necessary). So you should be able to tell if the zerg is building to that point, unless he's doing something stupid like hiding mutas or saving a fuckton of gas. A zerg suddenly building a lot of mutas is definitely a challenge, but the his economy limits how many he can suddenly make, and that many mutas can be dealt with without the phoenix upgrade.

it takes even longer to make phoenixes so unless the zerg is blind, according to your argument, he will switch out of mutas. which leads to the conclusion that the phoenix upgrade has no place in the current metagame.

You only need 6 phoenix to deal with a huge ball of mutas with that upgrade. and you can actually kill a zerg since he needs time to switch tech.

firstly, 6 is a huge exaggeration. secondly, if the zerg player just micros his mutas away, the phoenixes cannot engage and later on, in a head-head fight, the mutas will be engage all they want, especially in a situation like this game where the Z is heavily pressuring a protoss taking a third (which happens in 80% of PvZs that I see)

What are you talking about?!?! Phoenixes move faster then mutas. What do you mean phoenix can't engage?

because the zerg player will have other stuff on the map? you don't randomly send units out across the map by themselves without risking them
Translator
SeventhPride
Profile Joined February 2012
712 Posts
March 23 2012 12:50 GMT
#1585
On March 23 2012 21:49 R1CH wrote:
That was heartbreaking to watch as a HerO fan . Not sure I like the booth cameras any more .

Yeah..he lost it as a team liquid member playing for ogs. lol, that gotta hurt his pride more
Probasaur
Profile Joined August 2011
United States461 Posts
March 23 2012 12:50 GMT
#1586
On March 23 2012 21:48 SeventhPride wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:47 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:44 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:43 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:41 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:37 itsjuspeter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:35 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:33 Tek_ wrote:
A perfect example of why the Phoenix upgrade is crap, killing all the Mutas isn't enough (even with perfect control) as the next tech switch is unstoppable.

Not really; he didn't even micro his phoenix well enough to utilise the upgrade. Also it was designed to help against zerg who mass mass mass mutas. Against players who make just a dozen or so then switch out of it you obviously want a much more measured response.


How can anyone predict how many mutas a zerg make? It's really easy to go from pressing M to pressing R, I'm really sad hero lost he looks devastated.

It takes a lot of time to mass a huge amount of mutas (to the point that the phoenix upgrade becomes necessary). So you should be able to tell if the zerg is building to that point, unless he's doing something stupid like hiding mutas or saving a fuckton of gas. A zerg suddenly building a lot of mutas is definitely a challenge, but the his economy limits how many he can suddenly make, and that many mutas can be dealt with without the phoenix upgrade.

it takes even longer to make phoenixes so unless the zerg is blind, according to your argument, he will switch out of mutas. which leads to the conclusion that the phoenix upgrade has no place in the current metagame.

You only need 6 phoenix to deal with a huge ball of mutas with that upgrade. and you can actually kill a zerg since he needs time to switch tech.

firstly, 6 is a huge exaggeration. secondly, if the zerg player just micros his mutas away, the phoenixes cannot engage and later on, in a head-head fight, the mutas will be engage all they want, especially in a situation like this game where the Z is heavily pressuring a protoss taking a third (which happens in 80% of PvZs that I see)

What are you talking about?!?! Phoenixes move faster then mutas. What do you mean phoenix can't engage?



Simply because they're faster doesn't mean they one-shot the mutas. They still have to stay within range to kill them and this takes a ton of micro when you have a decent amount less than the zerg. So if you move in a centimeter too close while micro'ing then you're dead.
"He who makes a beast of himself.... gets rid of the pain of being a man" -Hunter S Thompson.
winthrop
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Hong Kong956 Posts
March 23 2012 12:50 GMT
#1587
without cheesy play
hero doesn't win
one point is overlord to find the stargate

2nd is the muta switch



Leenock tooo goooood
Incredible Miracle
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
March 23 2012 12:51 GMT
#1588
On March 23 2012 21:45 bittman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:42 FXOBoSs wrote:
See you in korea for the match vs prime!!!!!!!! :D::D:D:D:D


Congrats Boss! =D

(You won't beat MVP though =P)

Though in all honesty, best of luck next week. That's the real finals for you guys. If you can beat MVP I imagine it would be like christmas for FXO =D

They play Prime not MVP, hence why he said see you for the match vs prime
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
SeventhPride
Profile Joined February 2012
712 Posts
March 23 2012 12:51 GMT
#1589
On March 23 2012 21:50 storywriter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:48 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:47 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:44 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:43 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:41 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:37 itsjuspeter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:35 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:33 Tek_ wrote:
A perfect example of why the Phoenix upgrade is crap, killing all the Mutas isn't enough (even with perfect control) as the next tech switch is unstoppable.

Not really; he didn't even micro his phoenix well enough to utilise the upgrade. Also it was designed to help against zerg who mass mass mass mutas. Against players who make just a dozen or so then switch out of it you obviously want a much more measured response.


How can anyone predict how many mutas a zerg make? It's really easy to go from pressing M to pressing R, I'm really sad hero lost he looks devastated.

It takes a lot of time to mass a huge amount of mutas (to the point that the phoenix upgrade becomes necessary). So you should be able to tell if the zerg is building to that point, unless he's doing something stupid like hiding mutas or saving a fuckton of gas. A zerg suddenly building a lot of mutas is definitely a challenge, but the his economy limits how many he can suddenly make, and that many mutas can be dealt with without the phoenix upgrade.

it takes even longer to make phoenixes so unless the zerg is blind, according to your argument, he will switch out of mutas. which leads to the conclusion that the phoenix upgrade has no place in the current metagame.

You only need 6 phoenix to deal with a huge ball of mutas with that upgrade. and you can actually kill a zerg since he needs time to switch tech.

firstly, 6 is a huge exaggeration. secondly, if the zerg player just micros his mutas away, the phoenixes cannot engage and later on, in a head-head fight, the mutas will be engage all they want, especially in a situation like this game where the Z is heavily pressuring a protoss taking a third (which happens in 80% of PvZs that I see)

What are you talking about?!?! Phoenixes move faster then mutas. What do you mean phoenix can't engage?

because the zerg player will have other stuff on the map? you don't randomly send units out across the map by themselves without risking them

.... are you serious now? Look I don't know if you are trolling or not. But you should send your phoenix out, they are one of the fastest units and they provide valuable information. You can't risk them unless they are going infestor tech. Hydras are too slow, queens are too slow. okay? Friendly tip for you, phoenix are scouting kings.
SeventhPride
Profile Joined February 2012
712 Posts
March 23 2012 12:52 GMT
#1590
On March 23 2012 21:50 Probasaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:48 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:47 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:44 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:43 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:41 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:37 itsjuspeter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:35 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:33 Tek_ wrote:
A perfect example of why the Phoenix upgrade is crap, killing all the Mutas isn't enough (even with perfect control) as the next tech switch is unstoppable.

Not really; he didn't even micro his phoenix well enough to utilise the upgrade. Also it was designed to help against zerg who mass mass mass mutas. Against players who make just a dozen or so then switch out of it you obviously want a much more measured response.


How can anyone predict how many mutas a zerg make? It's really easy to go from pressing M to pressing R, I'm really sad hero lost he looks devastated.

It takes a lot of time to mass a huge amount of mutas (to the point that the phoenix upgrade becomes necessary). So you should be able to tell if the zerg is building to that point, unless he's doing something stupid like hiding mutas or saving a fuckton of gas. A zerg suddenly building a lot of mutas is definitely a challenge, but the his economy limits how many he can suddenly make, and that many mutas can be dealt with without the phoenix upgrade.

it takes even longer to make phoenixes so unless the zerg is blind, according to your argument, he will switch out of mutas. which leads to the conclusion that the phoenix upgrade has no place in the current metagame.

You only need 6 phoenix to deal with a huge ball of mutas with that upgrade. and you can actually kill a zerg since he needs time to switch tech.

firstly, 6 is a huge exaggeration. secondly, if the zerg player just micros his mutas away, the phoenixes cannot engage and later on, in a head-head fight, the mutas will be engage all they want, especially in a situation like this game where the Z is heavily pressuring a protoss taking a third (which happens in 80% of PvZs that I see)

What are you talking about?!?! Phoenixes move faster then mutas. What do you mean phoenix can't engage?



Simply because they're faster doesn't mean they one-shot the mutas. They still have to stay within range to kill them and this takes a ton of micro when you have a decent amount less than the zerg. So if you move in a centimeter too close while micro'ing then you're dead.

3 more range is difficult? did you see stephano vs white ra? THAT is called phoenix micro.
Ruscour
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
5233 Posts
March 23 2012 12:53 GMT
#1591
On March 23 2012 21:48 Fionn wrote:
I've never really liked TheWind's picks (seeing as even with MC, they never made it past a GSTL semifinal), but Choya is continually one of the best coaches when it comes to match-ups. Even when fOu was at it's weakest, they still did better than more stacked teams like oGs and Prime due to how they forced good snipes/favorable matches.

Prime vs. FXO should be good.

Yeah, great picks by FXO. The only player that didn't get a kill was GuMiho, who's been on fire lately.

FXO has, in my opinion, the best team spirit of any GSTL team. If you read some of the stuff that BoSs talks about on his blog and in interviews and stuff, they really are a family. And I almost teared up when Leenock won.

Starcraft is awesome.
SpaceFighting
Profile Joined January 2010
New Zealand690 Posts
March 23 2012 12:53 GMT
#1592
leenock is pretty siiiiick ^_^
kuz pro
storywriter
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia528 Posts
March 23 2012 12:53 GMT
#1593
On March 23 2012 21:51 SeventhPride wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:50 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:48 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:47 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:44 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:43 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:41 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:37 itsjuspeter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:35 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:33 Tek_ wrote:
A perfect example of why the Phoenix upgrade is crap, killing all the Mutas isn't enough (even with perfect control) as the next tech switch is unstoppable.

Not really; he didn't even micro his phoenix well enough to utilise the upgrade. Also it was designed to help against zerg who mass mass mass mutas. Against players who make just a dozen or so then switch out of it you obviously want a much more measured response.


How can anyone predict how many mutas a zerg make? It's really easy to go from pressing M to pressing R, I'm really sad hero lost he looks devastated.

It takes a lot of time to mass a huge amount of mutas (to the point that the phoenix upgrade becomes necessary). So you should be able to tell if the zerg is building to that point, unless he's doing something stupid like hiding mutas or saving a fuckton of gas. A zerg suddenly building a lot of mutas is definitely a challenge, but the his economy limits how many he can suddenly make, and that many mutas can be dealt with without the phoenix upgrade.

it takes even longer to make phoenixes so unless the zerg is blind, according to your argument, he will switch out of mutas. which leads to the conclusion that the phoenix upgrade has no place in the current metagame.

You only need 6 phoenix to deal with a huge ball of mutas with that upgrade. and you can actually kill a zerg since he needs time to switch tech.

firstly, 6 is a huge exaggeration. secondly, if the zerg player just micros his mutas away, the phoenixes cannot engage and later on, in a head-head fight, the mutas will be engage all they want, especially in a situation like this game where the Z is heavily pressuring a protoss taking a third (which happens in 80% of PvZs that I see)

What are you talking about?!?! Phoenixes move faster then mutas. What do you mean phoenix can't engage?

because the zerg player will have other stuff on the map? you don't randomly send units out across the map by themselves without risking them

.... are you serious now? Look I don't know if you are trolling or not. But you should send your phoenix out, they are one of the fastest units and they provide valuable information. You can't risk them unless they are going infestor tech. Hydras are too slow, queens are too slow. okay? Friendly tip for you, phoenix are scouting kings.

so, now you're saying you want me to move out with 6 phoenixes against a "huge ball of mutas" into the zerg's bases and kill all the mutas so they can't be ever used again.
Translator
Probasaur
Profile Joined August 2011
United States461 Posts
March 23 2012 12:54 GMT
#1594
On March 23 2012 21:50 winthrop wrote:
without cheesy play
hero doesn't win
one point is overlord to find the stargate

2nd is the muta switch



Leenock tooo goooood



And youre notttttttt at alllllll impartialllllllll


Please try not to type like my friends 15 yr old sister on facebook.


Hero is known for his ridiculous macro games where his multitask is second to none. Were you even alive for Dreamhack or is that before your time??

Hero vs Ret. and Hero vs Puma, go watch it before you make ignorant, uneducated statements like this.


Leenock is good and deserved to win. But to say Hero only wins with cheese is completely retarded.
"He who makes a beast of himself.... gets rid of the pain of being a man" -Hunter S Thompson.
Asha
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom38257 Posts
March 23 2012 12:54 GMT
#1595
On March 23 2012 21:42 Fionn wrote:
Sweet, MVP vs. HoSeo/ST at an ice rink next week.


Bulgogi on Ice?
antilyon
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Brazil2546 Posts
March 23 2012 12:55 GMT
#1596
On March 23 2012 21:43 vndods wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:42 Fragile51 wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:41 bittman wrote:
I can't see the finals not being MVP vs Prime. It's an upset if anything other than that happens.


I sure hope it will be. With Prime winning this time!

YEAH like in the KSL. dat MKP/Byun/Creator combo.

Prime is kinda like a tag fighting.

"Hey Byun, I took out 3 of them, can you take out the rest? The whole team does'nt feel like playing right now."
SeventhPride
Profile Joined February 2012
712 Posts
March 23 2012 12:55 GMT
#1597
On March 23 2012 21:53 storywriter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:51 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:50 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:48 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:47 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:44 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:43 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:41 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:37 itsjuspeter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:35 rothsbury wrote:
[quote]
Not really; he didn't even micro his phoenix well enough to utilise the upgrade. Also it was designed to help against zerg who mass mass mass mutas. Against players who make just a dozen or so then switch out of it you obviously want a much more measured response.


How can anyone predict how many mutas a zerg make? It's really easy to go from pressing M to pressing R, I'm really sad hero lost he looks devastated.

It takes a lot of time to mass a huge amount of mutas (to the point that the phoenix upgrade becomes necessary). So you should be able to tell if the zerg is building to that point, unless he's doing something stupid like hiding mutas or saving a fuckton of gas. A zerg suddenly building a lot of mutas is definitely a challenge, but the his economy limits how many he can suddenly make, and that many mutas can be dealt with without the phoenix upgrade.

it takes even longer to make phoenixes so unless the zerg is blind, according to your argument, he will switch out of mutas. which leads to the conclusion that the phoenix upgrade has no place in the current metagame.

You only need 6 phoenix to deal with a huge ball of mutas with that upgrade. and you can actually kill a zerg since he needs time to switch tech.

firstly, 6 is a huge exaggeration. secondly, if the zerg player just micros his mutas away, the phoenixes cannot engage and later on, in a head-head fight, the mutas will be engage all they want, especially in a situation like this game where the Z is heavily pressuring a protoss taking a third (which happens in 80% of PvZs that I see)

What are you talking about?!?! Phoenixes move faster then mutas. What do you mean phoenix can't engage?

because the zerg player will have other stuff on the map? you don't randomly send units out across the map by themselves without risking them

.... are you serious now? Look I don't know if you are trolling or not. But you should send your phoenix out, they are one of the fastest units and they provide valuable information. You can't risk them unless they are going infestor tech. Hydras are too slow, queens are too slow. okay? Friendly tip for you, phoenix are scouting kings.

so, now you're saying you want me to move out with 6 phoenixes against a "huge ball of mutas" into the zerg's bases and kill all the mutas so they can't be ever used again.

Yes, is it really that hard to micro a phoenix that has the upgrade? Like can't you take the effort to micro? I don't get it, what else do you want? a kill everything unit? You have the collosus for ground ,now you want something for air?
Probasaur
Profile Joined August 2011
United States461 Posts
March 23 2012 12:57 GMT
#1598
On March 23 2012 21:55 SeventhPride wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:53 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:51 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:50 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:48 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:47 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:44 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:43 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:41 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:37 itsjuspeter wrote:
[quote]

How can anyone predict how many mutas a zerg make? It's really easy to go from pressing M to pressing R, I'm really sad hero lost he looks devastated.

It takes a lot of time to mass a huge amount of mutas (to the point that the phoenix upgrade becomes necessary). So you should be able to tell if the zerg is building to that point, unless he's doing something stupid like hiding mutas or saving a fuckton of gas. A zerg suddenly building a lot of mutas is definitely a challenge, but the his economy limits how many he can suddenly make, and that many mutas can be dealt with without the phoenix upgrade.

it takes even longer to make phoenixes so unless the zerg is blind, according to your argument, he will switch out of mutas. which leads to the conclusion that the phoenix upgrade has no place in the current metagame.

You only need 6 phoenix to deal with a huge ball of mutas with that upgrade. and you can actually kill a zerg since he needs time to switch tech.

firstly, 6 is a huge exaggeration. secondly, if the zerg player just micros his mutas away, the phoenixes cannot engage and later on, in a head-head fight, the mutas will be engage all they want, especially in a situation like this game where the Z is heavily pressuring a protoss taking a third (which happens in 80% of PvZs that I see)

What are you talking about?!?! Phoenixes move faster then mutas. What do you mean phoenix can't engage?

because the zerg player will have other stuff on the map? you don't randomly send units out across the map by themselves without risking them

.... are you serious now? Look I don't know if you are trolling or not. But you should send your phoenix out, they are one of the fastest units and they provide valuable information. You can't risk them unless they are going infestor tech. Hydras are too slow, queens are too slow. okay? Friendly tip for you, phoenix are scouting kings.

so, now you're saying you want me to move out with 6 phoenixes against a "huge ball of mutas" into the zerg's bases and kill all the mutas so they can't be ever used again.

Yes, is it really that hard to micro a phoenix that has the upgrade? Like can't you take the effort to micro? I don't get it, what else do you want? a kill everything unit? You have the collosus for ground ,now you want something for air?



What don't you understand? He spelled it out for you already. He told you that while your 3rd is constantly getting denied by endless swarms and your natural is under siege by just enough roaches to make it impossible to hold with a small number of units, THEN you have to micro on top of all that. You could clearly see Hero wasn't ONLY micro'ing his phoenixes in that moment or he would have ran circles around them, believe that. He's got some of the best micro in the world let alone for protoss.
"He who makes a beast of himself.... gets rid of the pain of being a man" -Hunter S Thompson.
storywriter
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia528 Posts
March 23 2012 12:57 GMT
#1599
On March 23 2012 21:55 SeventhPride wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 21:53 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:51 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:50 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:48 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:47 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:44 SeventhPride wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:43 storywriter wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:41 rothsbury wrote:
On March 23 2012 21:37 itsjuspeter wrote:
[quote]

How can anyone predict how many mutas a zerg make? It's really easy to go from pressing M to pressing R, I'm really sad hero lost he looks devastated.

It takes a lot of time to mass a huge amount of mutas (to the point that the phoenix upgrade becomes necessary). So you should be able to tell if the zerg is building to that point, unless he's doing something stupid like hiding mutas or saving a fuckton of gas. A zerg suddenly building a lot of mutas is definitely a challenge, but the his economy limits how many he can suddenly make, and that many mutas can be dealt with without the phoenix upgrade.

it takes even longer to make phoenixes so unless the zerg is blind, according to your argument, he will switch out of mutas. which leads to the conclusion that the phoenix upgrade has no place in the current metagame.

You only need 6 phoenix to deal with a huge ball of mutas with that upgrade. and you can actually kill a zerg since he needs time to switch tech.

firstly, 6 is a huge exaggeration. secondly, if the zerg player just micros his mutas away, the phoenixes cannot engage and later on, in a head-head fight, the mutas will be engage all they want, especially in a situation like this game where the Z is heavily pressuring a protoss taking a third (which happens in 80% of PvZs that I see)

What are you talking about?!?! Phoenixes move faster then mutas. What do you mean phoenix can't engage?

because the zerg player will have other stuff on the map? you don't randomly send units out across the map by themselves without risking them

.... are you serious now? Look I don't know if you are trolling or not. But you should send your phoenix out, they are one of the fastest units and they provide valuable information. You can't risk them unless they are going infestor tech. Hydras are too slow, queens are too slow. okay? Friendly tip for you, phoenix are scouting kings.

so, now you're saying you want me to move out with 6 phoenixes against a "huge ball of mutas" into the zerg's bases and kill all the mutas so they can't be ever used again.

Yes, is it really that hard to micro a phoenix that has the upgrade? Like can't you take the effort to micro? I don't get it, what else do you want? a kill everything unit? You have the collosus for ground ,now you want something for air?

now you're contradicting yourself. All this time, you've been calling the phoenix this wonderful 1 unit kills 20, colossus in the air and when i refute this, you say that I'm complaining because the phoenix can't do what you said it could. By the way, I've been exclusively going a phoenix build in PvZ lately and having great success. It does not involve phoenixes countering mutas (it does prevent them though) and certainly does not involve getting the upgrade. So I know how to use phoenixes and all I'm saying is that this idea that 5 phoenixes with this stupid upgrade will completely shut down muta play needs to go away.
Translator
teamamerica
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States958 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-23 13:06:08
March 23 2012 12:58 GMT
#1600
On March 23 2012 21:41 elwoodng wrote:
can anyone summarize the last game for me? I can't find the LR unfortunately and I missed it.


Missed the opening so I couldn't tell you if it was nexus first or 14pool-16hatch after pylon block or anything but:

FFE vs 3hatch before gas. Leenock kills HerO's first scouting probe (it's hiding in corner near 3rd, miscontrol by HerO doesn't let it mineral float out to check) but it's ok as HerO's already sent another probe out which scouts the 3rd. HerO then does some random 2zlot - stalker - with a probe pressure. However, Leenock deals with it decently. Builds about 14 slow lings and shuts it down losing nothing, at the same time scouts the stargate that has gone down in HerO's base. Also as the scouting overlord floats out he sees the 3 extra gates that HerO has thrown down. However +1 atk isn't near done so no +1 4gate void. HerO builds 2 voids (and a phoenix, but it pretty much just scouts) and all they do is force 2 spores. Perhaps because it's 2 voids (and maybe double stargate that Leenock thinks he didn't scout, I can't remember the gas counts Leenock saw here) but Leenock responded with a few hydras. Didn't rush for grooved spine so I really think it was to counter mass voids but not sure. Anyway Leenock tries to take 4th but unfortunately, he also goes to pressure HerO with this random assortment of hydra/ling/roach he has and so he has to cancel it as the 2 voids from the start of the game are around and force a cancel. Leenock also stared a spire as all of this was going on.

While all of this went on, HerO went for +3 gateways into expand (so 7gate, robo, stargate, all before the 3rd nexus went down). The random group of hydra/roach/ling destroy the forge researching +1 armor and do some pressure on the 3rd but nothing major, things seem to be going decently for HerO. Sometime in here, Leenock get's his 4th down (3hydras defend it from the 3 voids) and starts roach burrow movement. Leenock now starts applying pressure with muta/ling/few roaches to HerO's 3rdth. HerO suprisingly responds with an extra stargate, +1 weapons, and the +2 phoenix range attack (no templar tech, no blink). I think because HerO had started collusi production, he was aiming for a collusi phoenix timing while Leenock was on pure muta. However, before all this can kick in, Leenock gets some decent damage with mutas (~10 probe kills, HerO is late to pull probes and phoenixs are sniped as they spawn as HerO's 3rd is getting pressured by roach/ling so his attention is diverted). Leenock also manages to scouts the fleet beacon, and I think scouts the double stargate. Regardless of whether or not he saw the double stargate, he throws down an infestation pit. With his ling/muta he takes down the 3rd, and manages to snipe 2 collusi with the ling/muta attacks. With his muta/ling he also forces 2 or 3 cancels on HerO's attempt to rebuild the 3rd.

Ranged phoenix shut down muta but not really efficently, losing ~3 phoenixs. Rest of the game is ling/roach/hydra/infestor thrown across HerOs 3 bases (some cool burrow movement kicks in), robo bay gets sniped, HerO is now spread way to thin and eventually has to tap out. I think, given how late burrow movement started, Leenock figured HerO would be spread way too thin (esp with double stargate phoenix) and bu movement gave him access into HerO's main and natural, which normally sentry + cannon would shut down. Last I saw, Leenock was around 65 drones spread across the 4 base and it was only 2 infestors so it's not like he was anywhere close to hive tech - it really was just committed lair tech aggression.

Overall some misteps by HerO - the early pressure fail, the double voids not doing much, the inability to multitask well. He seemed to be on one control group, sending collusi/zlots back to deal with mutas in his main at one point. The double stargate transition was also in my mind pretty suspect - every other Toss has been doing decently (I mean high level code S toss, MC, Oz, and HerO among this) going templar tech. Anyway, that and letting money units like collusi/immortal/sentry/forge getting picked off (forge wasn't really his fault as much as a failure of his opening I guess) meant he just got worn down by mass tier 2 aggression pretty much. That and I'm really not sure how much I liked the 7gates before 3rd, vs faster 3rd supported by voids into the 7gates. Of course I don't know HerO's gameplan but the play lacked any warpprism harass from HerO and no blink stalkers, and blink stalkers are pretty important so...the pressure of being team ace I guess T_T.

If I miss anything, sry! A lot went on so not sure about a lot of the timings, and just edited a bit to fix some errors I think I had.
RIP GOMTV. RIP PROLEAGUE.
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