[GSTL] 2012 Season 1 Pennant Race Group A Match 5 - Page 81

On March 23 2012 21:55 SeventhPride wrote:

Yes, is it really that hard to micro a phoenix that has the upgrade? Like can't you take the effort to micro? I don't get it, what else do you want? a kill everything unit? You have the collosus for ground ,now you want something for air?

On March 23 2012 21:57 Probasaur wrote:



What don't you understand? He spelled it out for you already. He told you that while your 3rd is constantly getting denied by endless swarms and your natural is under siege by just enough roaches to make it impossible to hold with a small number of units, THEN you have to micro on top of all that. You could clearly see Hero wasn't ONLY micro'ing his phoenixes in that moment or he would have ran circles around them, believe that. He's got some of the best micro in the world let alone for protoss.

On March 23 2012 21:59 Big J wrote:
I don't know why you are discussing the upgrade... When Hero started going for the phoenixes, the game was already hugly in Leenocks favor.

The pressure in the beginning forced hardly any drones, the void rays were scouted early and hardly did any damage, the void ray gateway attack was scouted and therefore never occured, then Heros upgrades were halted and he lost over 10 workers in the main in a 2mining vs 3mining base situation.
In that situation, Hero does a 180° techswitch from colossus with range into double starport + phoenix upgrade.

If he doesn't go for the phoenix in that situation (he did not have a twilight council), he loses to mutas, if he does, he might be able to stall out and maybe pull a comeback by turtling up on 3base, if Leenock does not react well; Leenock reacted well and run him over by leaning in on the huge advantage he had.

On March 23 2012 21:57 storywriter wrote:

now you're contradicting yourself. All this time, you've been calling the phoenix this wonderful 1 unit kills 20, colossus in the air and when i refute this, you say that I'm complaining because the phoenix can't do what you said it could. By the way, I've been exclusively going a phoenix build in PvZ lately and having great success. It does not involve phoenixes countering mutas (it does prevent them though) and certainly does not involve getting the upgrade. So I know how to use phoenixes and all I'm saying is that this idea that 5 phoenixes with this stupid upgrade will completely shut down muta play needs to go away.

On March 23 2012 22:01 SeventhPride wrote:

Yes it does, if a zerg is stupid enough to build muta when the opponent goes phoenix then he deserves to lose. having just phoenix should have removed the mentality of muta play. Look at nestea vs genius, genius build phoenix, nestea still went muta with double upgrades and he got thrashed. I play zerg, i know more about zerg then you. When we see phoenix ,we will NEVER go muta.

On March 23 2012 21:59 Big J wrote:
I don't know why you are discussing the upgrade... When Hero started going for the phoenixes, the game was already hugly in Leenocks favor.

The pressure in the beginning forced hardly any zerglings, the void rays were scouted early and hardly did any damage, the void ray gateway attack was scouted and therefore never occured, then Heros upgrades were halted and he lost over 10 workers in the main in a 2mining vs 3mining base situation.
In that situation, Hero does a 180° techswitch from colossus with range into double starport + phoenix upgrade.

If he doesn't go for the phoenix in that situation (he did not have a twilight council), he loses to mutas, if he does, he might be able to stall out and maybe pull a comeback by turtling up on 3base, if Leenock does not react well; Leenock reacted well and run him over by leaning in on the huge advantage he had.

On March 23 2012 22:03 storywriter wrote:

I don't know what question you're answering. I think you're talking about my use of phoenixes before mutas coming out to prevent the use of mutas. If so, yeah, I agree that early phoenix shuts down muta play. In fact, I said so.

On March 23 2012 22:05 Probasaur wrote:


Brilliant summary of the game there guy. Yeah it would have taken a miracle hold for Hero to come back from having to tech switch to double stargate phoenix.


I just don't see why people are praising leenock like he's some innovator god of zerg. He just built a lot of units sent in wave after wave and widdled Hero down. Yeah it was good solid play. So what?

On March 23 2012 22:06 SeventhPride wrote:

???? Okay I am getting confused. But you are not trolling me right? cause I feel kinda stupid after typing so much

On March 23 2012 22:00 SeventhPride wrote:

You can't go mass roach AND mass Muta at the same time unless you have been mining for a long time. And we weren't even talking about that, we were talking about phoenix micro against muta. Please stop trying to interfere unless you have read the whole convo

On March 23 2012 22:08 storywriter wrote:

No, i'm not trolling you. It's just that early phoenix has nothing to do with what we were discussing. The way Hero used phoenixes and the upgrade was reflexive, a reaction to mutas already out on the field. Thus, there's no point in discussing phoenixes when they are made to pre-emptively shut down mutas. All I was trying to say was that I do use phoenixes a lot in PvZ and I know how they work.

On March 23 2012 22:09 Probasaur wrote:


LMAO what?!?! Mining for a long time? The fuck are you on about?? Pretty sure in ANY game that gets up to muta tech.... it means both players have been "mining for a long time".

Now I see why that guy was getting so frustrated trying to get the facts through to you.... you don't even understand how the game works.

You can't seriously sit there and tell me a Zerg cant have mass roaches then tech switch into mutas and attack at the same time, not saying make them both at the same time even tho you can do that too on 3 bases with 75 drones.

Please don't talk like you are some authority when you don't even understand the most simple basics of the game.

On March 23 2012 22:09 SeventhPride wrote:

I was talking about how if hero had actually build phoenix BEFORE going voids, leenock would have not tech to mutas, since hero could have just teched to phoenix range. I think we misunderstood each other.

On March 23 2012 22:14 storywriter wrote:

that's completely different. you're talking about having phoenixes all game long from early game to end game, keeping each and every one alive. This is the exact build I use in PvZ atm. The thing is though if you do go this route, the upgrade doesn't actually help all that much. You're much better off using the resources on teching to colossi so you don't die to roach/hydra festor (and believe me there will be a crapton of that stuff since there are no mutas or corrupters on the field.

So if you're talking about the use of phoenixes to pre-emptively counter mutas, I agree they are useful. But I still maintain that the upgrade is superfluous and even dangerous to tech to when a massive push could be coming at any time. As for getting phoenixes against mutas a reaction thing, that's just dumb imo.

On March 23 2012 21:58 teamamerica wrote:


Missed the opening so I couldn't tell you if it was nexus first or 14pool-16hatch after pylon block or anything but:

FFE vs 3hatch before gas. Leenock kills HerO's first scouting probe (it's hiding in corner near 3rd, miscontrol by HerO doesn't let it mineral float out to check) but it's ok as HerO's already sent another probe out which scouts the 3rd. HerO then does some random 2zlot - stalker - with a probe pressure. However, Leenock deals with it decently. Builds about 14 slow lings and shuts it down losing nothing, at the same time scouts the stargate that has gone down in HerO's base. Also as the scouting overlord floats out he sees the 3 extra gates that HerO has thrown down. However +1 atk isn't near done so no +1 4gate void. HerO builds 2 voids (and a phoenix, but it pretty much just scouts) and all they do is force 2 spores. Perhaps because it's 2 voids (and maybe double stargate that Leenock thinks he didn't scout, I can't remember the gas counts Leenock saw here) but Leenock responded with a few hydras. Didn't rush for grooved spine so I really think it was to counter mass voids but not sure. Anyway Leenock tries to take 4th but unfortunately, he also goes to pressure HerO with this random assortment of hydra/ling/roach he has and so he has to cancel it as the 2 voids from the start of the game are around and force a cancel. Leenock also stared a spire as all of this was going on.

While all of this went on, HerO went for +3 gateways into expand (so 7gate, robo, stargate, all before the 3rd nexus went down). The random group of hydra/roach/ling destroy the forge researching +1 armor and do some pressure on the 3rd but nothing major, things seem to be going decently for HerO. Sometime in here, Leenock get's his 4th down (3hydras defend it from the 3 voids) and starts roach burrow movement. Leenock now starts applying pressure with muta/ling/few roaches to HerO's 3rdth. HerO suprisingly responds with an extra stargate, +1 weapons, and the +2 phoenix range attack (no templar tech, no blink). I think because HerO had started collusi production, he was aiming for a collusi phoenix timing while Leenock was on pure muta. However, before all this can kick in, Leenock gets some decent damage with mutas (~10 probe kills, HerO is late to pull probes and phoenixs are sniped as they spawn as HerO's 3rd is getting pressured by roach/ling so his attention is diverted). Leenock also manages to scouts the fleet beacon, and I think scouts the double stargate. Regardless of whether or not he saw the double stargate, he throws down an infestation pit. With his ling/muta he takes down the 3rd, and manages to snipe 2 collusi with the ling/muta attacks. With his muta/ling he also forces 2 or 3 cancels on HerO's attempt to rebuild the 3rd.

Ranged phoenix shut down muta but not really efficently, losing ~3 phoenixs. Rest of the game is ling/roach/hydra/infestor thrown across HerOs 3 bases (some cool burrow movement kicks in), robo bay gets sniped, HerO is now spread way to thin and eventually has to tap out. I think, given how late burrow movement started, Leenock figured HerO would be spread way too thin (esp with double stargate phoenix) and bu movement gave him access into HerO's main and natural, which normally sentry + cannon would shut down. Last I saw, Leenock was around 65 drones spread across the 4 base and it was only 2 infestors so it's not like he was anywhere close to hive tech - it really was just committed lair tech aggression.

Overall some misteps by HerO - the early pressure fail, the double voids not doing much, the inability to multitask well. He seemed to be on one control group, sending collusi/zlots back to deal with mutas in his main at one point. The double stargate transition was also in my mind pretty suspect - every other Toss has been doing decently (I mean high level code S toss, MC, Oz, and HerO among this) going templar tech. Anyway, that and letting money units like collusi/immortal/sentry/forge getting picked off (forge wasn't really his fault as much as a failure of his opening I guess) meant he just got worn down by mass tier 2 aggression pretty much. That and I'm really not sure how much I liked the 7gates before 3rd, vs faster 3rd supported by voids into the 7gates. Of course I don't know HerO's gameplan but the play lacked any warpprism harass from HerO and no blink stalkers, and blink stalkers are pretty important so...the pressure of being team ace I guess T_T.

If I miss anything, sry! A lot went on so not sure about a lot of the timings, and just edited a bit to fix some errors I think I had.

On March 23 2012 21:58 teamamerica wrote:


Missed the opening so I couldn't tell you if it was nexus first or 14pool-16hatch after pylon block or anything but:

FFE vs 3hatch before gas. Leenock kills HerO's first scouting probe (it's hiding in corner near 3rd, miscontrol by HerO doesn't let it mineral float out to check) but it's ok as HerO's already sent another probe out which scouts the 3rd. HerO then does some random 2zlot - stalker - with a probe pressure. However, Leenock deals with it decently. Builds about 14 slow lings and shuts it down losing nothing, at the same time scouts the stargate that has gone down in HerO's base. Also as the scouting overlord floats out he sees the 3 extra gates that HerO has thrown down. However +1 atk isn't near done so no +1 4gate void. HerO builds 2 voids (and a phoenix, but it pretty much just scouts) and all they do is force 2 spores. Perhaps because it's 2 voids (and maybe double stargate that Leenock thinks he didn't scout, I can't remember the gas counts Leenock saw here) but Leenock responded with a few hydras. Didn't rush for grooved spine so I really think it was to counter mass voids but not sure. Anyway Leenock tries to take 4th but unfortunately, he also goes to pressure HerO with this random assortment of hydra/ling/roach he has and so he has to cancel it as the 2 voids from the start of the game are around and force a cancel. Leenock also stared a spire as all of this was going on.

While all of this went on, HerO went for +3 gateways into expand (so 7gate, robo, stargate, all before the 3rd nexus went down). The random group of hydra/roach/ling destroy the forge researching +1 armor and do some pressure on the 3rd but nothing major, things seem to be going decently for HerO. Sometime in here, Leenock get's his 4th down (3hydras defend it from the 3 voids) and starts roach burrow movement. Leenock now starts applying pressure with muta/ling/few roaches to HerO's 3rdth. HerO suprisingly responds with an extra stargate, +1 weapons, and the +2 phoenix range attack (no templar tech, no blink). I think because HerO had started collusi production, he was aiming for a collusi phoenix timing while Leenock was on pure muta. However, before all this can kick in, Leenock gets some decent damage with mutas (~10 probe kills, HerO is late to pull probes and phoenixs are sniped as they spawn as HerO's 3rd is getting pressured by roach/ling so his attention is diverted). Leenock also manages to scouts the fleet beacon, and I think scouts the double stargate. Regardless of whether or not he saw the double stargate, he throws down an infestation pit. With his ling/muta he takes down the 3rd, and manages to snipe 2 collusi with the ling/muta attacks. With his muta/ling he also forces 2 or 3 cancels on HerO's attempt to rebuild the 3rd.

Ranged phoenix shut down muta but not really efficently, losing ~3 phoenixs. Rest of the game is ling/roach/hydra/infestor thrown across HerOs 3 bases (some cool burrow movement kicks in), robo bay gets sniped, HerO is now spread way to thin and eventually has to tap out. I think, given how late burrow movement started, Leenock figured HerO would be spread way too thin (esp with double stargate phoenix) and bu movement gave him access into HerO's main and natural, which normally sentry + cannon would shut down. Last I saw, Leenock was around 65 drones spread across the 4 base and it was only 2 infestors so it's not like he was anywhere close to hive tech - it really was just committed lair tech aggression.

Overall some misteps by HerO - the early pressure fail, the double voids not doing much, the inability to multitask well. He seemed to be on one control group, sending collusi/zlots back to deal with mutas in his main at one point. The double stargate transition was also in my mind pretty suspect - every other Toss has been doing decently (I mean high level code S toss, MC, Oz, and HerO among this) going templar tech. Anyway, that and letting money units like collusi/immortal/sentry/forge getting picked off (forge wasn't really his fault as much as a failure of his opening I guess) meant he just got worn down by mass tier 2 aggression pretty much. That and I'm really not sure how much I liked the 7gates before 3rd, vs faster 3rd supported by voids into the 7gates. Of course I don't know HerO's gameplan but the play lacked any warpprism harass from HerO and no blink stalkers, and blink stalkers are pretty important so...the pressure of being team ace I guess T_T.

If I miss anything, sry! A lot went on so not sure about a lot of the timings, and just edited a bit to fix some errors I think I had.