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On March 03 2012 20:52 R!! wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 20:42 mint_julep wrote:On March 03 2012 20:34 R!! wrote:On March 03 2012 20:32 Teacher74 wrote:On March 03 2012 20:30 Blade Fox wrote:
Genius had this series in his pocket until he made carriers. Go figure.. Ugh... people are reading that game wrong. That was actually a REALLY GOOD strategy. Carriers with +air attacks which is what Genius was doing snowballs really quickly and become extremely cost efficient. It was a really good build to mix into a best of 7 and a really good map to do it on cuz you can turtle on three base which is what you need to support carriers. Genius wanted to win. We could all see it in his face. He wasn't trolling. I'd believe you if I saw carriers winning more than 1 out of 50 games. Right, because what we expect from the best players in the world (particularly those named Genius) is to not innovate, and never figure out new ways to use units unexpectedly. And when these best players in the world do happen to find these very surprising strategies, we expect them to use them in on the Ladder or something to make sure they're given away before they really count. Perfect logic. No, perfect logic is believing that one naming himself a "Genius" actually makes them such a thing, Genius had a good run, just like forGG had when he won his OSL, but he was always regarded as "barely code S".Surprising strategies with carriers have proven to be bogus for many reasons, many times, the most resounding one being their build time, ipso facto, you can't surprise anyone in a starcraft game when your strategy takes 15 minutes to unfold.
The reference to Genius' name was facisious. I hadn't expected anyone to read that as a literal statement that I believe that taking a BNET handle will endow you with the powers of the literal meaning of it.
If you thought I meant that, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding - though I of course don't believe for a second that you actually believe that as if that were the case than I would have to believe that  TheBest is the best SC2 player in existance and  PerfectMan (bw) is a flawless human.
Be a sport and let someone try inject a little humor in an argument without getting strawman-ed on it, please.
...
Back to reality, please don't take this as an ad-hominem attack, as I hate those to hell, but if you really think that any strategy revolving around a particular unit can be "proven", especially this (relatively) early in the lifespan of a game like WoL to be "bogus", I can't help but wondering if you've watched the evolution of either SC1 or SC2.
This happens all the time.
The mothership, for example, used to be generally considered a gimmick and is now a intigral part of many late game PvP PvT and PvZ compositions. The Valkyrie Valkrye in BW was long ignored. Listen to Artosis' analysis of that strat after the game if you want an expert opinion on why this was a smart strat was demolished by a smarter one.
Brief outline from another post on this same page: "Literally the only thing that could break him right then was overlord drops. FFs and his cannons/ramps would have wrecked any type of roach/ling/hydra attempted pressure or all-in. Genius collects an "easy" win if DRG didn't counter perfectly and at an ideal time. With the denied scouting there was no way for DRG to have a Spire, upgrades, and 20 corrupters ready to have a chance vs ~8 carriers through triple stargate. Kudos to Genius on the build and DRG for the well executed counter. Very impressive game imo."
The point being that Genius' strat was to actively deny scouting information with phoenix in a way that presented itself as a phoenix opening into deathball turtle. DRG seems actually to have been very lucky to have used this strat as he did not begin to produce corruptors until Genius was forced to show his hand in defending the drop. While it may have been an incredibly well thought out part of DRG's plan to force a tip of whatever Genius was up to with this type of drop play, the game itself nonetheless does nothing to support the argument that "you can't surprise anyone in a starcraft game when your strategy takes 15 minutes to unfold", nor does anything. Again, top level pro's are creative and smash prior accepted knowledge, or they wouldn't be top level pros.
Maybe you can't surprise DRG, but DRG is arguably the strongest player in the world at the moment. Not just "anyone".
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YEAH gratz DRG i love you
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On March 03 2012 21:10 Hassybaby wrote:YEAH! I got 2 maps right, but totally got the prediction of "whoever wins Could will with the GSL" wrong I'm claiming that down to the curse
Oh wow, your cursing is almost as powerful as your derailing.
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On March 03 2012 23:35 supsun wrote:
I don't think it matter who won, they split the prize moneys. Just like mvp and nestea at blizzcon or nestea losira at that one gsl finals.
You must be really close to these guys. Did they tell you themselves? It couldn't possibly be that you're dumb enough to just assume something and say it like it's a fact, right?
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I'm not going to reply to all of your post because most of it is just waffle, so I'll cut to a part that I have an issue with:
On March 03 2012 23:37 mint_julep wrote:
Listen to Artosis' analysis of that strat after the game if you want an expert opinion on why this was a smart strat was demolished by a smarter one.
Brief outline from another post on this same page: "Literally the only thing that could break him right then was overlord drops. FFs and his cannons/ramps would have wrecked any type of roach/ling/hydra attempted pressure or all-in. Genius collects an "easy" win if DRG didn't counter perfectly and at an ideal time. With the denied scouting there was no way for DRG to have a Spire, upgrades, and 20 corrupters ready to have a chance vs ~8 carriers through triple stargate. Kudos to Genius on the build and DRG for the well executed counter. Very impressive game imo."
That's utter bollocks. Artosis completely invented that "fact" to hype the finals more, and make the players seem better. In actual fact, even when it is 8 Carriers vs equivalent cost of Corruptors, Corruptors still win. There is no barrier after which mass Carriers becomes unbeatable. Try it on a unit tester: assume that Genius had +1 attack and so did DRG, as that was the most plausible outcome. Use the Corruption ability, micro back Carriers etc. Once again, Corruptors still win.
The reason that units become considered more viable in SC2 or BW is because they fulfil a role which people did not foresee requiring to be fulfilled. I ask you this now: what possible role could the Carrier fill which other units in the Protoss arsenal cannot perform with equal or greater efficiency? That is the reason why Blizzard are strongly considering removing the Carrier for HotS. Because even if you can reach Carriers, they don't perform a role that another Protoss unit doesn't already .
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HELL YEAH DRG FIGHTING
DRG WINNING<3
well played, well deserved.
btw i love the artwork ROFLLLLLLLLLLLL
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On March 03 2012 23:35 supsun wrote:
I don't think it matter who won, they split the prize moneys. Just like mvp and nestea at blizzcon or nestea losira at that one gsl finals.
You're 100% incorrect.
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front page really teamliquid? sigh such a spoiler
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On March 04 2012 00:13 gosu86 wrote:
front page really teamliquid? sigh such a spoiler
Apparently their new policies haven't been made clear...
People like you astonish me, truly.
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On March 03 2012 23:35 supsun wrote:
I don't think it matter who won, they split the prize moneys. Just like mvp and nestea at blizzcon or nestea losira at that one gsl finals.
Split the money? Are you kidding me? Do you think $18k is not enough for the second place? They may chip in a bit of winnings to the "team fund", specifically to players that helped them practice, but not to each other. It is very unlikely, because they both won relatively large sums of money.
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On March 03 2012 23:57 SeaSwift wrote:I'm not going to reply to all of your post because most of it is just waffle, so I'll cut to a part that I have an issue with: Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 23:37 mint_julep wrote:
Listen to Artosis' analysis of that strat after the game if you want an expert opinion on why this was a smart strat was demolished by a smarter one.
Brief outline from another post on this same page: "Literally the only thing that could break him right then was overlord drops. FFs and his cannons/ramps would have wrecked any type of roach/ling/hydra attempted pressure or all-in. Genius collects an "easy" win if DRG didn't counter perfectly and at an ideal time. With the denied scouting there was no way for DRG to have a Spire, upgrades, and 20 corrupters ready to have a chance vs ~8 carriers through triple stargate. Kudos to Genius on the build and DRG for the well executed counter. Very impressive game imo." That's utter bollocks. Artosis completely invented that "fact" to hype the finals more, and make the players seem better. In actual fact, even when it is 8 Carriers vs equivalent cost of Corruptors, Corruptors still win. There is no barrier after which mass Carriers becomes unbeatable. Try it on a unit tester: assume that Genius had +1 attack and so did DRG, as that was the most plausible outcome. Use the Corruption ability, micro back Carriers etc. Once again, Corruptors still win. The reason that units become considered more viable in SC2 or BW is because they fulfil a role which people did not foresee requiring to be fulfilled. I ask you this now: what possible role could the Carrier fill which other units in the Protoss arsenal cannot perform with equal or greater efficiency? That is the reason why Blizzard are strongly considering removing the Carrier for HotS. Because even if you can reach Carriers, they don't perform a role that another Protoss unit doesn't already .
No problem on "reply[ing] to all of [my] post". It wasn't directed toward you.
Anyway what did Artosis state, contrary to anything in your argument, as "fact"?
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On March 04 2012 00:16 RPR_Tempest wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:13 gosu86 wrote:
front page really teamliquid? sigh such a spoiler Apparently their new policies haven't been made clear... People like you astonish me, truly.
Yeah ok there mr herp derp
Everyone in the whole world should know their policies every time they change right? you sound like a condescending douche
well lesson learned regardless will not be visiting tl since i know it will be on front page
User was warned for this post
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On March 03 2012 21:04 Teacher74 wrote:This final series was great imo. There will be whiners, but one of the top GSL finals in my book.
The final game reminded me of the final game of MMA vs DRG, which was really exciting. It's the only reason I'd say it may at most be on par with MMA-DRG or Jjakji-Leenock, but I wouldn't say this was the best finals ever as Artosis and Tasteless want to have you believe. But good games overall!
Congrats to DRG!
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On March 04 2012 00:33 gosu86 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:16 RPR_Tempest wrote:On March 04 2012 00:13 gosu86 wrote:
front page really teamliquid? sigh such a spoiler Apparently their new policies haven't been made clear... People like you astonish me, truly. Yeah ok there mr herp derp Everyone in the whole world should know their policies every time they change right? you sound like a condescending douche well lesson learned regardless will not be visiting tl since i know it will be on front page
Apparently you still did not read the post, in that case allow me to help you.
Click the " Hide Spoilers " button on the front page, under the Spotlight section.
The policy changes went into effect a week ago so not knowing about them by now is kind of odd.
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On March 04 2012 00:33 gosu86 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:16 RPR_Tempest wrote:On March 04 2012 00:13 gosu86 wrote:
front page really teamliquid? sigh such a spoiler Apparently their new policies haven't been made clear... People like you astonish me, truly. Yeah ok there mr herp derp Everyone in the whole world should know their policies every time they change right? you sound like a condescending douche well lesson learned regardless will not be visiting tl since i know it will be on front page
there's a check box at the bottom that can hide the spoilers if you really hate them
edit: ninjad
edit 2: i'm so happy that drg won his first gsl, he really deserved it.
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On March 04 2012 00:33 gosu86 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:16 RPR_Tempest wrote:On March 04 2012 00:13 gosu86 wrote:
front page really teamliquid? sigh such a spoiler Apparently their new policies haven't been made clear... People like you astonish me, truly. Yeah ok there mr herp derp Everyone in the whole world should know their policies every time they change right? you sound like a condescending douche well lesson learned regardless will not be visiting tl since i know it will be on front page
They gave a small guide to remove spoilers from front page for people who do not want to be spoiled. I'm sorry if you feel you got let down but there's no need to be harsh to other members.
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yo gsl, where are the vods? i actually thought i was wrong about the date and came to tl.net to see the schedule. oops. my bad. well, it will still be fun to watch when they're put up.
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On March 04 2012 00:25 mint_julep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 23:57 SeaSwift wrote:I'm not going to reply to all of your post because most of it is just waffle, so I'll cut to a part that I have an issue with: On March 03 2012 23:37 mint_julep wrote:
Listen to Artosis' analysis of that strat after the game if you want an expert opinion on why this was a smart strat was demolished by a smarter one.
Brief outline from another post on this same page: "Literally the only thing that could break him right then was overlord drops. FFs and his cannons/ramps would have wrecked any type of roach/ling/hydra attempted pressure or all-in. Genius collects an "easy" win if DRG didn't counter perfectly and at an ideal time. With the denied scouting there was no way for DRG to have a Spire, upgrades, and 20 corrupters ready to have a chance vs ~8 carriers through triple stargate. Kudos to Genius on the build and DRG for the well executed counter. Very impressive game imo." That's utter bollocks. Artosis completely invented that "fact" to hype the finals more, and make the players seem better. In actual fact, even when it is 8 Carriers vs equivalent cost of Corruptors, Corruptors still win. There is no barrier after which mass Carriers becomes unbeatable. Try it on a unit tester: assume that Genius had +1 attack and so did DRG, as that was the most plausible outcome. Use the Corruption ability, micro back Carriers etc. Once again, Corruptors still win. The reason that units become considered more viable in SC2 or BW is because they fulfil a role which people did not foresee requiring to be fulfilled. I ask you this now: what possible role could the Carrier fill which other units in the Protoss arsenal cannot perform with equal or greater efficiency? That is the reason why Blizzard are strongly considering removing the Carrier for HotS. Because even if you can reach Carriers, they don't perform a role that another Protoss unit doesn't already . No problem on "reply[ing] to all of [my] post". It wasn't directed toward you. Anyway what did Artosis state, contrary to anything in your argument, as "fact"?
That once Genius had a certain number of Carriers, DRG wouldn't be able to win, and that Genius was smart to go for that deathball of Carriers, and DRG was smarter to hit before that deathball.
All it came down to was DRG seeing Carriers, having already planned to drop, dropping, nearly killing him because Carriers weren't enough to defend, then just massing Corruptors and winning. Not really particularly smart from either player. Ballsy, from Genius, but not smart. Carriers just aren't viable unless at the top level unless you massively outplay your opponent, in which case why go for Carriers in the first place when pretty much any other Protoss unit will let you do that too?
By the way, apologies for the wording of my reply to you. Scanning over it again, it looked a bit harsh. The mentality of "we'll just wait and see, maybe Carriers will magically become good in the future" just irks me.
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On March 04 2012 00:33 gosu86 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:16 RPR_Tempest wrote:On March 04 2012 00:13 gosu86 wrote:
front page really teamliquid? sigh such a spoiler Apparently their new policies haven't been made clear... People like you astonish me, truly. Yeah ok there mr herp derp Everyone in the whole world should know their policies every time they change right? you sound like a condescending douche well lesson learned regardless will not be visiting tl since i know it will be on front page
Cya later.
Always knew DRG was the man, it's just official now.
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EPT
