On February 01 2012 21:11 jjmmtt wrote: MVP should stop his reactor hellion crap, it's not him and it doesn't really do too much anymore. When MVP just goes marine, tank, medivac into viking, ghost, he kills everyone.
Not sure if serious? I hope you know Reactor Hellion is (one of) the standard opening(s) in TvZ...
It is but it's not doing anything in the pro scene, MVP isn't doing well with it and hasn't done anything significant with it. Just saying. I mean, it works for BoxeR and others but MVP's style, he dominates when he does what he normally does.
not sure if serious. reactor hellion is the best opening right now. and even when people 1rax expo its immediately into reactor hellion. the amount of control it gives you and the possibility for early third is amazing.
It really doesn't give you that (free) third, Zerg just hit mutas at that time and shut it all down by then. Yes, you have the orbital up but they just ruin the hellions out on the map, the third getting any scv saturation etc. Hellions take SOOO much time away from everything else. So what if it is standard? It's being countered HEAVILY by pro zergs atm, by speed zerglings mainly.
Yeah, it does. 1 Spine and a few speed zerglings, what are hellions going to do? Control watch towers. So what? Zerg goes to mutas instantly and gets free muta reign then denies the third, like I pointed out. Even Queens can counter hellions. It's just not doing anything anymore, except for preventing fast 3rds from zerg, which doesn't matter because the Terran hasn't teched at all.
It lets you get tanks, medivacs, stim/combat shields, secure your nat, scout potential all-ins (and have the appropriate tech to counter), deny the zerg a fast third and creep spread... all in a timely fashion. You have no fucking idea what you're talking about and it's painful to see you try to argue this.
Edit: and just to emphasize how stupid you are, if the terran trades hellions for not-too-many-drones (4 hellions for 5 drones isn't worth it), the zerg usually gets ahead due to a) the nature of larva b) the importance of creep spread and c) the potency of a fast third.
if it's bringing you such pain why do you continue?
On February 01 2012 21:23 Luppy1 wrote: Actually, I feel that MVP won against curious in the last game entirely because he plays terran.
Me too he was actively able to deny two Expo's on Antiga now tell me when Zerg can do that without losing their whole army T_T GG
He didn't "deny" 2 expo's... it's just that Curious allowed him to deny - one little medivac and 8 marines shouldn't really do any damage. It's just that Curious was too focused on his 1-dimensional abusive muta and counterattack strategy.
he had the middle sieged up MVP SENT 1 thor a bunch of hellions and Marines to Curious's 4th BASE because he had the middle cut off.
Curious even had a baneling mine go off and kill some of the marines near the ramp or something and MVP was still able to deny his 3rd and 4th with stimmed marines running back and taking cover from siege tanks like most games end in TvZ because once that Terran gets in a position where he cuts off the other Expo's its really hard to defend and break the contain.
On February 01 2012 21:11 jjmmtt wrote: MVP should stop his reactor hellion crap, it's not him and it doesn't really do too much anymore. When MVP just goes marine, tank, medivac into viking, ghost, he kills everyone.
Not sure if serious? I hope you know Reactor Hellion is (one of) the standard opening(s) in TvZ...
It is but it's not doing anything in the pro scene, MVP isn't doing well with it and hasn't done anything significant with it. Just saying. I mean, it works for BoxeR and others but MVP's style, he dominates when he does what he normally does.
not sure if serious. reactor hellion is the best opening right now. and even when people 1rax expo its immediately into reactor hellion. the amount of control it gives you and the possibility for early third is amazing.
It really doesn't give you that (free) third, Zerg just hit mutas at that time and shut it all down by then. Yes, you have the orbital up but they just ruin the hellions out on the map, the third getting any scv saturation etc. Hellions take SOOO much time away from everything else. So what if it is standard? It's being countered HEAVILY by pro zergs atm, by speed zerglings mainly.
i suggest you watch more TvZ.
But ahead in tech and map control goes back to zerg as soon as mutas are out and are guarenteed hellion kills. Whatever zerglings have been lost are redundant, third gets taken instantly and now the terran player can't 3rd. And Terran has no tech, less marines (to deal with the mutas) and no tanks, to deal with mutas (now that hellions are low and seeing as though speedlings can deal with them anyway...)
I watch every game I can. So make an actual argument please.
i have no idea what to say to you cause all youre arguments are wrong LOL. if its being heavily countered right now why is it THE TvZ build? why does EVERY terran do it?
Maybe because before zergs figured out how to defend it, it insta-won games. Now zergs know and it's become useless? That seems obvious.
Unless you're suiciding hellions, it does exactly what it's supposed to. Prevent fast thirds, limit creep spread and retain map control. The zerg can't take back map control until he goes muta, and if he commits to 2 base spire you're ahead in econ.
On February 01 2012 21:11 jjmmtt wrote: MVP should stop his reactor hellion crap, it's not him and it doesn't really do too much anymore. When MVP just goes marine, tank, medivac into viking, ghost, he kills everyone.
Not sure if serious? I hope you know Reactor Hellion is (one of) the standard opening(s) in TvZ...
It is but it's not doing anything in the pro scene, MVP isn't doing well with it and hasn't done anything significant with it. Just saying. I mean, it works for BoxeR and others but MVP's style, he dominates when he does what he normally does.
not sure if serious. reactor hellion is the best opening right now. and even when people 1rax expo its immediately into reactor hellion. the amount of control it gives you and the possibility for early third is amazing.
It really doesn't give you that (free) third, Zerg just hit mutas at that time and shut it all down by then. Yes, you have the orbital up but they just ruin the hellions out on the map, the third getting any scv saturation etc. Hellions take SOOO much time away from everything else. So what if it is standard? It's being countered HEAVILY by pro zergs atm, by speed zerglings mainly.
Yeah, it does. 1 Spine and a few speed zerglings, what are hellions going to do? Control watch towers. So what? Zerg goes to mutas instantly and gets free muta reign then denies the third, like I pointed out. Even Queens can counter hellions. It's just not doing anything anymore, except for preventing fast 3rds from zerg, which doesn't matter because the Terran hasn't teched at all.
The hellions don't necessarily have to do a lot of direct damage to justify opening with them. 4 hellions can force Zerg to build a lot of stuff they don't want to, and can often limit early game creep spread, while stopping lings from running free all over the map.
Sure, they die eventually, but discourage zerg from doing a lot of the things they want to do (like make nothing but drones during this time period.)
Not saying it's necessarily the best way to open, as only time will tell, but the early map control is worth the investment early in the game.
On February 01 2012 21:23 Luppy1 wrote: Actually, I feel that MVP won against curious in the last game entirely because he plays terran.
Me too he was actively able to deny two Expo's on Antiga now tell me when Zerg can do that without losing their whole army T_T GG
Pff, curious kept trying to counter attack in his usual auto-pilot mode, while a single medivac kept dropping and killing stuff in his main for ages, I give you guys my usual 'bitch, please'.
On February 01 2012 21:11 jjmmtt wrote: MVP should stop his reactor hellion crap, it's not him and it doesn't really do too much anymore. When MVP just goes marine, tank, medivac into viking, ghost, he kills everyone.
Not sure if serious? I hope you know Reactor Hellion is (one of) the standard opening(s) in TvZ...
It is but it's not doing anything in the pro scene, MVP isn't doing well with it and hasn't done anything significant with it. Just saying. I mean, it works for BoxeR and others but MVP's style, he dominates when he does what he normally does.
not sure if serious. reactor hellion is the best opening right now. and even when people 1rax expo its immediately into reactor hellion. the amount of control it gives you and the possibility for early third is amazing.
It really doesn't give you that (free) third, Zerg just hit mutas at that time and shut it all down by then. Yes, you have the orbital up but they just ruin the hellions out on the map, the third getting any scv saturation etc. Hellions take SOOO much time away from everything else. So what if it is standard? It's being countered HEAVILY by pro zergs atm, by speed zerglings mainly.
But zerg committing to 2 base muta puts them behind more than they want, and reactor hellion doesn't but you behind at all, that's why it's so common, you can use the fac to build more reactors for more barracks or immediately start tank production and switch with a rax to amp up rine production, it also begins your tech so you can go anywhere from there
If you didn't make all those hellions, the upgrade for them (if you like), you would have SO MANY MORE tanks and marines, that's what's important, AND hellions don't count as "teching", it's tier 1, and you're not getting siege mode until much later. So the zerg is behind on bases, ahead in tech but terran is equal in bases but behind in tech and behind in tech-based units.
Except Terran's are getting their thirds down before the zergs, and you can literally tech to anything you want after that. You don't need 50 hellions....you only have to make like 2-4 hellions.
On February 01 2012 21:28 Azzur wrote: Lol at people staying there are counters to the reactor helion opening - it has no counter or else it wouldn't be the standard tvz opener.
On February 01 2012 21:11 jjmmtt wrote: MVP should stop his reactor hellion crap, it's not him and it doesn't really do too much anymore. When MVP just goes marine, tank, medivac into viking, ghost, he kills everyone.
Not sure if serious? I hope you know Reactor Hellion is (one of) the standard opening(s) in TvZ...
It is but it's not doing anything in the pro scene, MVP isn't doing well with it and hasn't done anything significant with it. Just saying. I mean, it works for BoxeR and others but MVP's style, he dominates when he does what he normally does.
not sure if serious. reactor hellion is the best opening right now. and even when people 1rax expo its immediately into reactor hellion. the amount of control it gives you and the possibility for early third is amazing.
It really doesn't give you that (free) third, Zerg just hit mutas at that time and shut it all down by then. Yes, you have the orbital up but they just ruin the hellions out on the map, the third getting any scv saturation etc. Hellions take SOOO much time away from everything else. So what if it is standard? It's being countered HEAVILY by pro zergs atm, by speed zerglings mainly.
But zerg committing to 2 base muta puts them behind more than they want, and reactor hellion doesn't but you behind at all, that's why it's so common, you can use the fac to build more reactors for more barracks or immediately start tank production and switch with a rax to amp up rine production, it also begins your tech so you can go anywhere from there
If you didn't make all those hellions, the upgrade for them (if you like), you would have SO MANY MORE tanks and marines, that's what's important, AND hellions don't count as "teching", it's tier 1, and you're not getting siege mode until much later. So the zerg is behind on bases, ahead in tech but terran is equal in bases but behind in tech and behind in tech-based units.
Dude 4 hellions are 400 minerals...SO MANY MORE tanks and marines? Really?
Hellions don't count as teching alright...but a factory does. From reactor hellion you can do anything from 3 fast cc, to 2 port banshee, and anything in between.
On February 01 2012 21:23 Luppy1 wrote: Actually, I feel that MVP won against curious in the last game entirely because he plays terran.
Me too he was actively able to deny two Expo's on Antiga now tell me when Zerg can do that without losing their whole army T_T GG
Pff, curious kept trying to counter attack in his usual auto-pilot mode, while a single medivac kept dropping and killing stuff in his main for ages, I give you guys my usual 'bitch, please'.
In the Antiga game he did try to counter-attack but not any large ones once he realised MVP had left Siege tanks at home.
On February 01 2012 21:28 Azzur wrote: Lol at people staying there are counters to the reactor helion opening - it has no counter or else it wouldn't be the standard tvz opener.
Wait a while until 5-6 queens becomes standard and we will see
On February 01 2012 21:23 Luppy1 wrote: Actually, I feel that MVP won against curious in the last game entirely because he plays terran.
Me too he was actively able to deny two Expo's on Antiga now tell me when Zerg can do that without losing their whole army T_T GG
He didn't "deny" 2 expo's... it's just that Curious allowed him to deny - one little medivac and 8 marines shouldn't really do any damage. It's just that Curious was too focused on his 1-dimensional abusive muta and counterattack strategy.
he had the middle sieged up MVP SENT 1 thor a bunch of hellions and Marines to Curious's 4th BASE because he had the middle cut off.
Curious even had a baneling mine go off and kill some of the marines near the ramp or something and MVP was still able to deny his 3rd and 4th with stimmed marines running back and taking cover from siege tanks like most games end in TvZ because once that Terran gets in a position where he cuts off the other Expo's its really hard to defend and break the contain.
I remember reading somewhere that most Koreans think that Antiga favors the player who controls the centre of the map. And just so happens most games we watch, the Terran controls the centre.
On February 01 2012 21:11 jjmmtt wrote: MVP should stop his reactor hellion crap, it's not him and it doesn't really do too much anymore. When MVP just goes marine, tank, medivac into viking, ghost, he kills everyone.
Not sure if serious? I hope you know Reactor Hellion is (one of) the standard opening(s) in TvZ...
It is but it's not doing anything in the pro scene, MVP isn't doing well with it and hasn't done anything significant with it. Just saying. I mean, it works for BoxeR and others but MVP's style, he dominates when he does what he normally does.
not sure if serious. reactor hellion is the best opening right now. and even when people 1rax expo its immediately into reactor hellion. the amount of control it gives you and the possibility for early third is amazing.
It really doesn't give you that (free) third, Zerg just hit mutas at that time and shut it all down by then. Yes, you have the orbital up but they just ruin the hellions out on the map, the third getting any scv saturation etc. Hellions take SOOO much time away from everything else. So what if it is standard? It's being countered HEAVILY by pro zergs atm, by speed zerglings mainly.
But zerg committing to 2 base muta puts them behind more than they want, and reactor hellion doesn't but you behind at all, that's why it's so common, you can use the fac to build more reactors for more barracks or immediately start tank production and switch with a rax to amp up rine production, it also begins your tech so you can go anywhere from there
If you didn't make all those hellions, the upgrade for them (if you like), you would have SO MANY MORE tanks and marines, that's what's important, AND hellions don't count as "teching", it's tier 1, and you're not getting siege mode until much later. So the zerg is behind on bases, ahead in tech but terran is equal in bases but behind in tech and behind in tech-based units.
Do you even play the game? You don't need that many siege tanks at that point in the game if you're forcing Zerg to commit to 2-base muta WITH an additional in base macro hatch while you get up your third CC BEFORE a zergs third. That, in itself, already puts you way ahead of zerg. And by the time Zerg gets out mutas, Terran is capable of having Stim+Medivacs for some drops OR 2-3 siege tanks if he opts for the early third. It's awesome.
On February 01 2012 21:11 jjmmtt wrote: MVP should stop his reactor hellion crap, it's not him and it doesn't really do too much anymore. When MVP just goes marine, tank, medivac into viking, ghost, he kills everyone.
Not sure if serious? I hope you know Reactor Hellion is (one of) the standard opening(s) in TvZ...
It is but it's not doing anything in the pro scene, MVP isn't doing well with it and hasn't done anything significant with it. Just saying. I mean, it works for BoxeR and others but MVP's style, he dominates when he does what he normally does.
not sure if serious. reactor hellion is the best opening right now. and even when people 1rax expo its immediately into reactor hellion. the amount of control it gives you and the possibility for early third is amazing.
It really doesn't give you that (free) third, Zerg just hit mutas at that time and shut it all down by then. Yes, you have the orbital up but they just ruin the hellions out on the map, the third getting any scv saturation etc. Hellions take SOOO much time away from everything else. So what if it is standard? It's being countered HEAVILY by pro zergs atm, by speed zerglings mainly.
But zerg committing to 2 base muta puts them behind more than they want, and reactor hellion doesn't but you behind at all, that's why it's so common, you can use the fac to build more reactors for more barracks or immediately start tank production and switch with a rax to amp up rine production, it also begins your tech so you can go anywhere from there
If you didn't make all those hellions, the upgrade for them (if you like), you would have SO MANY MORE tanks and marines, that's what's important, AND hellions don't count as "teching", it's tier 1, and you're not getting siege mode until much later. So the zerg is behind on bases, ahead in tech but terran is equal in bases but behind in tech and behind in tech-based units.
I'm going to stop after this because I'm pretty sure you're trolling, NOBODY goes blue flame any more unless they're opening mech, and talking about REACTOR hellions then bringing up that they put you behind if you magically get blue flame with a reactor...4 hellions man, they don't put you behind. Terran isn't behind on tech, they have access to four geysers sooner than they would with nearly any other TvZ opener, and so many timings rely on immediately getting a sp or tank and siege tech...
On February 01 2012 21:11 jjmmtt wrote: MVP should stop his reactor hellion crap, it's not him and it doesn't really do too much anymore. When MVP just goes marine, tank, medivac into viking, ghost, he kills everyone.
Not sure if serious? I hope you know Reactor Hellion is (one of) the standard opening(s) in TvZ...
It is but it's not doing anything in the pro scene, MVP isn't doing well with it and hasn't done anything significant with it. Just saying. I mean, it works for BoxeR and others but MVP's style, he dominates when he does what he normally does.
not sure if serious. reactor hellion is the best opening right now. and even when people 1rax expo its immediately into reactor hellion. the amount of control it gives you and the possibility for early third is amazing.
It really doesn't give you that (free) third, Zerg just hit mutas at that time and shut it all down by then. Yes, you have the orbital up but they just ruin the hellions out on the map, the third getting any scv saturation etc. Hellions take SOOO much time away from everything else. So what if it is standard? It's being countered HEAVILY by pro zergs atm, by speed zerglings mainly.
Yeah, it does. 1 Spine and a few speed zerglings, what are hellions going to do? Control watch towers. So what? Zerg goes to mutas instantly and gets free muta reign then denies the third, like I pointed out. Even Queens can counter hellions. It's just not doing anything anymore, except for preventing fast 3rds from zerg, which doesn't matter because the Terran hasn't teched at all.
It lets you get tanks, medivacs, stim/combat shields, secure your nat, scout potential all-ins (and have the appropriate tech to counter), deny the zerg a fast third and creep spread... all in a timely fashion. You have no fucking idea what you're talking about and it's painful to see you try to argue this.
Edit: and just to emphasize how stupid you are, if the terran trades hellions for not-too-many-drones (4 hellions for 5 drones isn't worth it), the zerg usually gets ahead due to a) the nature of larva b) the importance of creep spread and c) the potency of a fast third.
if it's bringing you such pain why do you continue?
Huh? Seeing him argue with a bunch of people who don't make points is painful. I just wrote the initial reply that MVP, when going marine/tank/medivac, opens with reactor hellion.
If he doesn't shut up after that post I'd be totally amazed.
On February 01 2012 21:11 jjmmtt wrote: MVP should stop his reactor hellion crap, it's not him and it doesn't really do too much anymore. When MVP just goes marine, tank, medivac into viking, ghost, he kills everyone.
Not sure if serious? I hope you know Reactor Hellion is (one of) the standard opening(s) in TvZ...
It is but it's not doing anything in the pro scene, MVP isn't doing well with it and hasn't done anything significant with it. Just saying. I mean, it works for BoxeR and others but MVP's style, he dominates when he does what he normally does.
not sure if serious. reactor hellion is the best opening right now. and even when people 1rax expo its immediately into reactor hellion. the amount of control it gives you and the possibility for early third is amazing.
It really doesn't give you that (free) third, Zerg just hit mutas at that time and shut it all down by then. Yes, you have the orbital up but they just ruin the hellions out on the map, the third getting any scv saturation etc. Hellions take SOOO much time away from everything else. So what if it is standard? It's being countered HEAVILY by pro zergs atm, by speed zerglings mainly.
But zerg committing to 2 base muta puts them behind more than they want, and reactor hellion doesn't but you behind at all, that's why it's so common, you can use the fac to build more reactors for more barracks or immediately start tank production and switch with a rax to amp up rine production, it also begins your tech so you can go anywhere from there
If you didn't make all those hellions, the upgrade for them (if you like), you would have SO MANY MORE tanks and marines, that's what's important, AND hellions don't count as "teching", it's tier 1, and you're not getting siege mode until much later. So the zerg is behind on bases, ahead in tech but terran is equal in bases but behind in tech and behind in tech-based units.
Except Terran's are getting their thirds down before the zergs, and you can literally tech to anything you want after that. You don't need 50 hellions....you only have to make like 2-4 hellions.
The terrans are having their third denied or attacked and losing scvs or their orbital to mutas, so I disagree. It has just happened in a lot of games we've seen tonight.
Sadly Curious didn't prove to be flexible enough in his decision making. Only sticking to counter-attacks, while your 3rd get's destroyed, your main get's dropped or your nat sieged up? Not really worth it.. :/
EPT![[image loading]](http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/5089/gdj8owqb.jpg)
