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On November 09 2011 07:02 Sceptre wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 17:14 SniperVul5 wrote:
Will we have to pay extra on top of this just for getting the all day play pass? That would seriously be pushing how much we pay.
I mean 40 dollars is expensive in itself please don't squeeze any more money out of us.
This is actually pretty important. Will the 40 $ cover the entry fee + the computers for the day?
It's all about costs, imagine what cost it would be to rent out a Lan center with 50+ computers for 2 days; This would cost near 2k dollars easily. I said that to frame my answer, the costs will cover your computer costs from 12-6 (both days) until you are eliminated. Sorry if you think I am trying to squeeze you for cash but if we did what you wanted there would be no prize pool.
As for the cost of the 'day pass' that is Tims' prerogative (Lan owner).
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practice practice practice practice >.<
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On November 08 2011 16:32 burster wrote:
The results of the Tournie are going to be relatively the same as previous tournaments. Its gonna be an Archaic/ander/Burster/ice/LagLovah/anderyo top 3 and the usual's filling out the top 16. (yeah fk u sunshine gateinurbase sup)
Imma straight up send you a very strongly worded letter. In the mail. Be ready.
Next, Ithaca. After reading through this thread to see if this blatant imbalance was a feature or not (Hint: It is not), just figured I would post it here as well:
The natural thirds of the top right and bottom left bases. The ones with those adorable beaches underwater right beside them. That water is NOT impassable terrain. "What do you mean, Sunshine?" I mean Blink/Drops can get your units INTO THAT AREA. Can you walk in after them? NOPE, CHUCK TESTA. But don't worry, the units, once dropped in, can't move because there are rocks blocking them... For the most part. You know what units could give a submarine-ing shit about rocks? Tanks. And Colossi. And whatever else range unit. Both of which can be airlifted into this delightful little nook and... You guessed it! Slap that base right in the dick. "Oh, but don't Zergs have Mutalisks? If the units can't move, Mutas'll be so gud!" You are right, I forgot. Mutas. Hopefully I didn't have any other build planned. If I did, too bad, I have to go Mutas JUST TO BE SURE that I don't lose to a shift-Clicked Medivac + Tank.
Maybe I get lucky. I am a pretty lucky guy. This one time... All on Double-0. Boom. Rich. And maybe that carries over and the Terran doesn't build tanks. Or Medivacs. But what about Stalkers? With Blink? I dare say they are a TOUCH more common than the other two, highly elusive units mentioned. Or, better yet, no Protoss / Terrans will read this post and won't have to just build Air defense for the ONE build I am forced to do. Blackjack.
Truthfully, I don't have time to watch every Korean weekly game ever played on this map to see if it is used. If anyone wants to do it for me, find me a game (Preferably vs Zerg, ya know, the almost 100% melee race?) where units are dropped in that zone and the other player doesn't just leave, I will eat my words and play Terran or something. It looks impassable, why try to drop there? But you can. So now half the spawns on that map are as useless as practice games with Burster, the other map can be sieged from the low-ground, and I had planned to Veto Sanshorn so I haven't played it, but come on... It started out as an annoyance, and is fast becoming the reason I am going to have to politely tell Tom I am not going to this tournament.
Maybe in even suggesting that, I lose my A-team status, but at this point... Whatever, savvy?
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Instead of bashing everything and going on and on about it, you could be mildly constructive and let me know that there's an issue. I'll fix that tonight (the pathing layer is fucking buggy as hell and this shit happens all the time despite looking fine).
If there's a bullshit problem like this on an ESV map let me know ASAP and I'll fix it/let whoever made the map know and it'll get fixed within a day. This is *not* intentional and easily slips through beta testing/QA
...Thanks for pointing that out
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On November 09 2011 12:11 prodiG wrote:
Instead of bashing everything and going on and on about it, you could be mildly constructive and let me know that there's an issue. I'll fix that tonight (the pathing layer is fucking buggy as hell and this shit happens all the time despite looking fine).
If there's a bullshit problem like this on an ESV map let me know ASAP and I'll fix it/let whoever made the map know and it'll get fixed within a day. This is *not* intentional and easily slips through beta testing/QA
...Thanks for pointing that out
THANK YOU.
But you are missing the overall point, methinks. You can fix this map, that would be Mint. Once that is done, I will viciously spend the next week trying to find more things to complain about, I promise. But this is news to you. You made the map, and didn't notice this. Fine, that is why people test maps, it is all part of the process. Even they can't catch everything though, clearly, since I just found something that ruins half the spawns.
Maybe I am just being too much of a child in thinking that these unnoticed things that exist in these maps that are not played as often as the ladder maps, or MLG maps, or GSL maps, can go unnoticed until it is actually happening to you? For money?
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The 1% is controlling 99% of the maps. #occupyedmonton
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On November 09 2011 12:26 ander wrote:
The 1% is controlling 99% of the maps. #occupyedmonton
The 1% is controlling 99% of the maps. #occupymetalopolis
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Just as an example of a lost player due to maps. As soon as iccup maps and extras were introduced I stopped attending. I am one of those that do not wish to waste time on maps only for the local scene and will never have to play anywhere else. Just something to think about. I get that this could be used to help our locals that could possibly go on to bigger and better starcraft but if in the end in a year you are left with a tournament of 4-8 people. Thats a dead local scene.
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I've been playing Ithaca for the past 2 hours. This map is fucking HORRIBLE. Let's hope the rest aren't as bad. If they are, count me out of this garbage tournament.
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I have several things to say, and now that the discussion has had a chance to cool down I will say my part.
Firstly I want to say that for many of you that have posted in this thread I am quite surprised at this response. Many of the posters here are consistent attendees of the local tournaments and played on nearly the EXACT SAME map pool 3 weeks ago with no serious complaints to myself or the Shiro about this issue.
Lets look at the map pools side by side;
October | November
Dual Sight | Dual Sight
Antiga Shipyard | Antiga Shipyard
Daybreak | Daybreak
Tal'Darim Altar LE | Tal'Darim Altar LE
Sungsu Crossing | Sungsu Crossing
Sandshorn Mists | Sanshorn Mists
Testbug | Ithaca
Bel'Shir Beach| N/A
So other then the removal of Testbug and Bel'Shir Beach and the addition of Ithaca to the map pool is virtually the same. Now for those of you that are not regular attendees of the Edmonton monthly tournaments maybe this gives you a kick in the pants to get involved in the local scene, or maybe it doesn't. (as voiced above) While the very slight change to the current map pool is a valid statement for some of the posters here it of course does not pertain to everyone I hope to draw into this event.
To everyone else I have a couple things to say;
Sirs, the writing is on the wall. As a follower of tournament decisions over the last year and I dare say a connoisseur of the managers and Admins of eSports times are changing, and for the better. Two great recent examples are the TL map challenge and the IPL map challenge. Evidence of multiple similar top down decisions is merely a precursor to upheaval in the melee map tournament pools. We like to think that the populist idea is always the best one, the idea that more minds make a better product but instead we trend to the lowest common denominator. I am prepared to take some loss to prove my ideas and to show you guys(and gals) a great product with excellent games on superb maps. If you choose to write it off or just spectate I will hold no hard feelings and hope that you can participate in our growth in the future.
CASL is dedicated to fostering to what we see as the Three Pillars of eSports.
First and foremost I look to the players, their skill and determination to achieve seemingly superhuman feats is both a reward and honor;
I then look to the people that drive them to greater heights, the Community, there are many ways to define what a community is in this regard whether it is standing behind your friend and helping him remember creep spread, or asking for an autograph. There are many ways to lend yourself to YOUR community, take ownership because as much as you own the community, is in turn owns and depends on you.
Lastly I reach the mob, or as I coin them perhaps unfairly, the Spectators. This group is likely the most important to reach heights for it is the mob that will draw the money, and we cannot forget money makes the world go round. While the mob is easily the most fickle and also the best critics it is from within the mob that eSports, whether is be SC2 DotA etc., draws its converts. The true fans that are above the rest that move to become greats and in turn drive mob into fervor.
I say all of this to bring some perspective, I don't want to sell this like a religion even though I perhaps used religious terminology. How ever you wish to be involved is up to you and if you decide that this isn't where you want to drop your cash or time that is ultimately up to you. I would also leave you with a warning though, as we look around the world where do we see evidence of grassroots organizations up and coming? perhaps the only example I can think of is the reincarnated ICCUP team, know known as ESVTV. As in building anything it takes a lot of scaffolding to reach the ceiling, Michelangelo's marvelous paintings weren't achieved from ground level; if I can be a part of the growth of an organization I believe in no matter how small I shall use my stature to. It is MY privilege and honor.
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k I dont have the time to actually read the entire thread, but i've talked to a couple people and spent around 8 or so hours playing on the big three maps, ithica , sanshorn, and sungsu. Ive played more on sanshorn and sungsu because they were in the last tournament (a point some of you fail to realize that there is only 1 new map in this pool)
This very much is my opinion and coming from my very privileged spot I hope it adds anew spin to the discussion!
1. The ESV/ICCUP maps are bad. Please read on. If anyone quotes me saying that without the rest i will be very frustrated as that is not my point. This is my point. So is every other map I've played on in sc2. In my opinion a good map allows the players to make choices. The ladder maps all promote very 1 dimensional play styles, with any strange maps slowly getting weeded out of the pool. Take lost temple/shattered temple (note why they named it shattered was because they shattered any chance of innovation on it). I am here to argue that map imbalances promote game diversity. Having the option to cliff drop not only limited my opponent but have a greater variation of styles to be played on this map. Not only this but having islands! Islands could be argued to favor terrans because of the mobility of our buildings but i would argue it allows for greater variation in how we expand and defend those expands. If i play a sky terran style why would i expand to my nat if i can expand to an island and defend it with my fleet of viking banshee battlecruiser!
My point is not to argue specifics but to say we need artists who are innovating in the creation of maps
A BW example, Python TvP. Python is like a simpler version of lost temple with a much more open middle and a very hard to secure third base for terran. I sucked hard at this map because taking a third seems like a dream i could never accomplish, and even if there was a chance to take one my army was so spread out he would just pick a point and walk me. I would say i would win a quarter of my games but i look at the TLPD and see terrans had a 55% win rate. Back then I would have complained about imbalance because i was a noob not understanding the world of maps. But bigger terrans then i started to innovate. I remember watching a game (players i cannot remember) but i watched the terran play a very vulture heavy style. To me i had never seen it before,(relying on large numbers of tanks with heavy upgrades) the mobility and area control with mines the huge amount of vultures gave seemed spectacularly good! See rather then give up they decided to tweak how he played to fit the map. It seems people dont like this idea. See cause people are rather un-innovative and boring and we like to play the way we wanna, instead of seeing the beauty of the map makers design and making fine adjustments to our play to account for the map! I just want to finish with saying I 100% believe the lost temple in starcraft 2 was not imbalanced tvz and will be happy to explain myself via pm if anyone wishes to debate the details.
moving on (if anyone want to specifically debate a finer point a PM will be answered. If you post in the thread i will probably not respond cause i dont read threads very often!
2. We need better maps. If you played on the ladder the last season there were a couple maps introduced to the map pool that were the most boring peace of crap maps Ive ever played on. No interesting chokes, no interesting watch tower placement, no cliffs...the list goes on. Waiting is not the solution. The community is! Guys like prodig are amazing at making maps. If you dont think so try making one that looks at all good and you will realize prodig is a freaken magician. The community (especially the local community) should rally around these individuals with amazing talent and help them move forward. This involves playing the maps at a competitive level!. It is a necessary "evil" but in my own personal experience (playing all the new maps for hours of actual practice) it is incredibly fun and they promote new ways and new styles! It is incredibly silly (and im saddened to see) that my friends and teammates are pointing out all the negatives when there are so many positive things about these new maps. Sure glitches need to be addressed and fixed and because of prodig's willingness to be apart of those fixes they are fixed as soon as possible! But embracing the new styles the maps bring and solving the maps like a new problem. Im calling out a friend and i know he wont mind cause hes the bomb, but i was playing with okSunshine a teammate and discovered a nice little seige timing while i expanded on sungsu that caught him off guard and skyrocketed me into a great position in which i later won with just some good 4th base denying. He immediately was frustrated and thought it was stupid and let the forum world know! Its so silly to blame a loss on a imbalance! I do it, we all do it but it really is silly. He didn't lose the game cause i could seige in position to hit his mining drones, he lost cause i played better then him! Which included playing specifically for that map. At that point i would have hoped him to immediately watch the replay and realize if he would make x amount of lings at this point...or maybe open roach that this attack gets LOLed all over and suddenly he is in a great spot. Instead he took the EASY way out and complained on a forum! Not only did he kinda crap all over the hard work i had been putting in to develop the build and allow it to transition nicely into a midgame but also the map designer who allows for those short rush distances. And maybe it wasnt the map makers intention to allow the tanks to hit the minerals line but it should be addressed as a problem for the players to solve! My tank timing created the problem not the map imbalance, sure maybe the map allowed for the push to be stronger but that something sunshine will need to account for future games that we play!
3.Your not as smart as you think you are....and neither am I but as a competitive player i always face palm when players talk about balance. If you want to be the best player you need to win where people say you cant! You need to break the common trends. Savior is my easy example for this. He became the best zerg in BW at a time where zergs were doing the worst statistically! He took maps with obvious design flaws and while every other zerg was getting crushed he would continue to innovate and develop his play style to win. Complaining about map balance or race imbalance is just a cop out for hard work, innovation and dedication to win! Winning takes time and if you would spend the time to learn these maps and develop strategies not only would the games be more exciting but then mapmakers like prodig can continue to hone their skills through your feedback.
4. I love anyone who contributes anything to make starcraft a better game! I dont care if what you do is bad, if you keep it up and people help along the way one day it will be freaken awesome and we can grow this community together!
So if your a mapmaker, commentator or player keep doing what your doing to the best you can! And i would hope that everyone around you would be overwhelmingly positive because their only helping us move in the right direction!
[edit] of course mitch post a block of text right before me so no one will ever read mine...facepalm
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So, as far as I can discern:
A number of players are unhappy with the map pool and don't want to spend 45 dollars to risk losing an important match because they were unaware of a certain characteristic of a new map,
and the people organizing the event say
I am prepared to take some loss to prove my ideas and to show you guys(and gals) a great product with excellent games on superb maps. If you choose to write it off or just spectate I will hold no hard feelings and hope that you can participate in our growth in the future
or, if I may be so bold as to paraphrase, "I hear your concerns but i'm going to do it my way anyway in hopes of proving you wrong in the long run".
I think this kind of puts the map discussion to rest. We'll just have to see how it plays out.
What concerns me, however, is the following: If we aren't happy with the map pool and our voice on these forums is acknowledged but ignored, what are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to boycott the events until we get the maps we want? Or are we supposed to make our own events? I am posing somewhat of a philosophical question here, I am not advocating any form of boycott. Put on our shoes, assume you absolutely hate the map pool. What are you supposed to do now? Do you go to the tournament and give them your money anyway? That will just encourage them to continue what they are doing.
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On November 09 2011 15:00 Gofarman wrote:
I have several things to say, and now that the discussion has had a chance to cool down I will say my part.
Firstly I want to say that for many of you that have posted in this thread I am quite surprised at this response. Many of the posters here are consistent attendees of the local tournaments and played on nearly the EXACT SAME map pool 3 weeks ago with no serious complaints to myself or the Shiro about this issue.
Lets look at the map pools side by side;
October | November
Dual Sight | Dual Sight
Antiga Shipyard | Antiga Shipyard
Daybreak | Daybreak
Tal'Darim Altar LE | Tal'Darim Altar LE
Sungsu Crossing | Sungsu Crossing
Sandshorn Mists | Sanshorn Mists
Testbug | Ithaca
Bel'Shir Beach| N/A
So other then the removal of Testbug and Bel'Shir Beach and the addition of Ithaca to the map pool is virtually the same. Now for those of you that are not regular attendees of the Edmonton monthly tournaments maybe this gives you a kick in the pants to get involved in the local scene, or maybe it doesn't. (as voiced above) While the very slight change to the current map pool is a valid statement for some of the posters here it of course does not pertain to everyone I hope to draw into this event.
To everyone else I have a couple things to say;
Sirs, the writing is on the wall. As a follower of tournament decisions over the last year and I dare say a connoisseur of the managers and Admins of eSports times are changing, and for the better. Two great recent examples are the TL map challenge and the IPL map challenge. Evidence of multiple similar top down decisions is merely a precursor to upheaval in the melee map tournament pools. We like to think that the populist idea is always the best one, the idea that more minds make a better product but instead we trend to the lowest common denominator. I am prepared to take some loss to prove my ideas and to show you guys(and gals) a great product with excellent games on superb maps. If you choose to write it off or just spectate I will hold no hard feelings and hope that you can participate in our growth in the future.
CASL is dedicated to fostering to what we see as the Three Pillars of eSports.
First and foremost I look to the players, their skill and determination to achieve seemingly superhuman feats is both a reward and honor;
I then look to the people that drive them to greater heights, the Community, there are many ways to define what a community is in this regard whether it is standing behind your friend and helping him remember creep spread, or asking for an autograph. There are many ways to lend yourself to YOUR community, take ownership because as much as you own the community, is in turn owns and depends on you.
Lastly I reach the mob, or as I coin them perhaps unfairly, the Spectators. This group is likely the most important to reach heights for it is the mob that will draw the money, and we cannot forget money makes the world go round. While the mob is easily the most fickle and also the best critics it is from within the mob that eSports, whether is be SC2 DotA etc., draws its converts. The true fans that are above the rest that move to become greats and in turn drive mob into fervor.
I say all of this to bring some perspective, I don't want to sell this like a religion even though I perhaps used religious terminology. How ever you wish to be involved is up to you and if you decide that this isn't where you want to drop your cash or time that is ultimately up to you. I would also leave you with a warning though, as we look around the world where do we see evidence of grassroots organizations up and coming? perhaps the only example I can think of is the reincarnated ICCUP team, know known as ESVTV. As in building anything it takes a lot of scaffolding to reach the ceiling, Michelangelo's marvelous paintings weren't achieved from ground level; if I can be a part of the growth of an organization I believe in no matter how small I shall use my stature to. It is MY privilege and honor.
Nobody complained 3 weeks ago because that was a small tournament in comparison to this $1500 tournament, and because we thought it was sort of a one time deal that would not turn into a problem. We tried it out, and we've given you feedback, which you can choose to heed or ignore. The community is basically straight up telling you in a public venue what they want; i mean, you've got five pages of flame to deal with. But hey, that's totally your call.
And yes, indeed, this gap in views is a major problem.
Whether these maps are good or bad is beyond the point, as pointed out by Archaic. The problem is that these maps are a bit of a *middle finger* to a lot of the players, because these are being completely imposed on us for what feels like no reason. We have NOTHING to go on besides the "Korean Weekly", which is something i've never had the time nor the inclination to watch. These maps are NOT time tested; we are continually finding bugs and imbalances in the maps. How crappy would it be if someone won the tournament because he abused that water behind the third on Ithaca that we found? And the only reason it worked was because NOBODY else knew about it? That doesn't sound like it would be a "quality product" to me.
In stark contrast, we have map pools that we know and love used by GSL's, MLG's, IPL's, NASL's; not to mention countless replays of your favorite players that you have access to basically anywhere. Good luck finding replays of any notable players on Sanshorn Mists. I totally understand that you have high aspirations for CASL, but I think that if you're going to try and drastically change the formula that these guys have put together, you've got a very, very high climb ahead of you.
The decision to use these maps feels really pointless and arbitrary because the "Pillars of eSports" have been established already. There is no need for you guys to try and reinvent this; it should be complemented and embraced, not given the "Fuck you" treatment in favor of these maps. We already have established map pools, and somebody's opinion (or personal bias) on whether or not this tried and true map pool is shitty should not matter and dictate the entire thing for everyone else.
On November 09 2011 15:18 SiguR wrote:
What concerns me, however, is the following: If we aren't happy with the map pool and our voice on these forums is acknowledged but ignored, what are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to boycott the events until we get the maps we want? Or are we supposed to make our own events? I am posing somewhat of a philosophical question here, I am not advocating any form of boycott. Put on our shoes, assume you absolutely hate the map pool. What are you supposed to do now? Do you go to the tournament and give them your money anyway? That will just encourage them to continue what they are doing.
Quoted for truth.
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I'm actually a bit speechless that in a $1500 tournament people are arguing FOR ladder maps, what?
Everyone's complaining about lack of replays, I'll drop about 100 replays (guesstimate on the #) in this thread tomorrow of really good Koreans playing on these very maps for you guys.
Also anyone that argues that Blizz maps don't have bugs has never opened a Blizz map. The MLG XNC? Has like 3-4 positions that units will (and have in pro games) get stuck on and glitch out. Our map team helped fixed all those errors (and many others, I just was only in the loop on that set of issues). Like being not able to be seiged in your third from the Terran main in Antiga? Yea a map team fixed that. Blizz maps are FULL of bugs, just mapmakers like the ones you are flaming fixed them FOR Blizzard. >.<
This is seriously the first tournament I have seen since beta where the players want ladder maps, absolutely baffling that you want to trust $1500 cash to a bunch of maps not designed for tournament use or competitive play at all JUST IN CASE a Bronze player would have won the whole thing but did not because of the maps (which would not happen).
Odd....
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On November 09 2011 15:04 tQArchaic wrote:
3.Your not as smart as you think you are....and neither am I but as a competitive player i always face palm when players talk about balance. If you want to be the best player you need to win where people say you cant! You need to break the common trends. Savior is my easy example for this. He became the best zerg in BW at a time where zergs were doing the worst statistically! He took maps with obvious design flaws and while every other zerg was getting crushed he would continue to innovate and develop his play style to win. Complaining about map balance or race imbalance is just a cop out for hard work, innovation and dedication to win! Winning takes time and if you would spend the time to learn these maps and develop strategies not only would the games be more exciting but then mapmakers like prodig can continue to hone their skills through your feedback.
[edit] of course mitch post a block of text right before me so no one will ever read mine...facepalm
Play Zerg in July 2010 and tell me there's no such thing as imbalance. Some of these maps are good, others are completely trash. If there's a map that forces me to kill my opponent before 14:00 or else I lose, I wouldn't call that imbalance -- I would call it terrible design.
Edit: On top of that, I'm not spending $40 to have some terrain abused and knock me out much earlier than I should be. I place high every tournament I attend, but if somebody wants to abuse the "rocks in the water" at my 3rd in Ithaca then that might allow a weaker player to abuse horrible map design and take a game off me that they wouldn't normally be able to.
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On November 09 2011 15:18 SiguR wrote:
What concerns me, however, is the following: If we aren't happy with the map pool and our voice on these forums is acknowledged but ignored, what are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to boycott the events until we get the maps we want? Or are we supposed to make our own events? I am posing somewhat of a philosophical question here, I am not advocating any form of boycott. Put on our shoes, assume you absolutely hate the map pool. What are you supposed to do now? Do you go to the tournament and give them your money anyway? That will just encourage them to continue what they are doing.
My better judgement is telling me I should be sleeping but I will give your last paragraph some response, maybe not a well thought out one.
My gut says to me this, if you truely believe that this tournament will be ruined because of the introduction of a map and the use of some newer maps (remember you have a veto) please continue to voice your opinion and don't come. I truly believe that some capitalist ideals are good, and the boycott is something I think people should use if they believe in what they are doing. With that said I would rather you came to the tournament played and sent me a PM with your experience, good or bad. All of this chat is out of context because none of use really know what the context is, as much as running this tournament will teach me about what you guys want I think it will also teach you about what you want.
I might be wrong, but you have heard my thoughts on it.
Mitchell 'Gofarman' MacPherson
If you want to more fully express your opinion on it I am on Skype every evening (nearly) working on this or something related to SC2 and can also be reached by PM.
skype- mitch.macp
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On November 09 2011 16:03 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 15:04 tQArchaic wrote:
3.Your not as smart as you think you are....and neither am I but as a competitive player i always face palm when players talk about balance. If you want to be the best player you need to win where people say you cant! You need to break the common trends. Savior is my easy example for this. He became the best zerg in BW at a time where zergs were doing the worst statistically! He took maps with obvious design flaws and while every other zerg was getting crushed he would continue to innovate and develop his play style to win. Complaining about map balance or race imbalance is just a cop out for hard work, innovation and dedication to win! Winning takes time and if you would spend the time to learn these maps and develop strategies not only would the games be more exciting but then mapmakers like prodig can continue to hone their skills through your feedback.
[edit] of course mitch post a block of text right before me so no one will ever read mine...facepalm
Play Zerg in July 2010 and tell me there's no such thing as imbalance. Some of these maps are good, others are completely trash. If there's a map that forces me to kill my opponent before 14:00 or else I lose, I wouldn't call that imbalance -- I would call it terrible design. Edit: On top of that, I'm not spending $40 to have some terrain abused and knock me out much earlier than I should be. I place high every tournament I attend, but if somebody wants to abuse the "rocks in the water" at my 3rd in Ithaca then that might allow a weaker player to abuse horrible map design and take a game off me that they wouldn't normally be able to.
Dude that will be fixed within 24 hours like every single other bug every one of our maps have had ever..........
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[/QUOTE]
Play Zerg in July 2010 and tell me there's no such thing as imbalance. Some of these maps are good, others are completely trash. If there's a map that forces me to kill my opponent before 14:00 or else I lose, I wouldn't call that imbalance -- I would call it terrible design.
Edit: On top of that, I'm not spending $40 to have some terrain abused and knock me out much earlier than I should be. I place high every tournament I attend, but if somebody wants to abuse the "rocks in the water" at my 3rd in Ithaca then that might allow a weaker player to abuse horrible map design and take a game off me that they wouldn't normally be able to.
[/QUOTE]
Its like you say that and i acknowledge that the consensus was there was imbalance and yet nestea and fruitdealer both rose above the quoted imbalance to win. The more skilled player will win. If you know theres a spot that abusable expand somewhere else like into a main for a easy third, its like simple fixes from a competitors standpoint so the reality is solve the problem
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On November 09 2011 15:18 SiguR wrote:So, as far as I can discern: A number of players are unhappy with the map pool and don't want to spend 45 dollars to risk losing an important match because they were unaware of a certain characteristic of a new map, and the people organizing the event say Show nested quote +I am prepared to take some loss to prove my ideas and to show you guys(and gals) a great product with excellent games on superb maps. If you choose to write it off or just spectate I will hold no hard feelings and hope that you can participate in our growth in the future or, if I may be so bold as to paraphrase, "I hear your concerns but i'm going to do it my way anyway in hopes of proving you wrong in the long run". I think this kind of puts the map discussion to rest. We'll just have to see how it plays out. What concerns me, however, is the following: If we aren't happy with the map pool and our voice on these forums is acknowledged but ignored, what are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to boycott the events until we get the maps we want? Or are we supposed to make our own events? I am posing somewhat of a philosophical question here, I am not advocating any form of boycott. Put on our shoes, assume you absolutely hate the map pool. What are you supposed to do now? Do you go to the tournament and give them your money anyway? That will just encourage them to continue what they are doing.
I'll have to quote this again, for truth. I'm not going to support a tournament with my money if the tournament basically gives a big "fuck you" to players and their feedback. I'll continue to practice on these maps anyways, but if I am not satisfied with them by the time the tournament rolls around, I'll probably sit this one out.
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There's too much drama in this thread for me to read but I'll just put in my 2 cents without sounding like a total moron. I think it's pretty sad to see the state of affairs the general SC2 scene is in as opposed to broodwar. Back in broodwar new maps were loved and cherished and people couldn't wait to try them out and practice on them. But sadly in sc2, that is not the case. For the majority of players we're all just stuck on the blizzard maps, which for the most part are quite bad, because of this I thought people would love learning and trying out new maps, but it appears I was wrong. It's sad to see a lot of the new people in the scene now because of starcraft 2 that are too used to the maps blizzard puts out to try anything new, which for the most part has turned a lot of people into 1 dimensional 1 trick ponies. A good player can learn and adapt to new maps regardless of how much time they have, even a couple hours a night is enough for sc2. Yes I understand people are upset because the map pool was "forced" on us (silly word to use imo) yes I also understand it's a 1500 dollar tournament, but we have to break out of this repetition of using the same maps for every single tournament, because in the long run it'll make us all better as starcraft players being able to adapt to new things rather than refusing to change from the old.
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EPT
