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On November 09 2011 15:59 Diamond wrote:
I'm actually a bit speechless that in a $1500 tournament people are arguing FOR ladder maps, what?
Everyone's complaining about lack of replays, I'll drop about 100 replays (guesstimate on the #) in this thread tomorrow of really good Koreans playing on these very maps for you guys.
Also anyone that argues that Blizz maps don't have bugs has never opened a Blizz map. The MLG XNC? Has like 3-4 positions that units will (and have in pro games) get stuck on and glitch out. Our map team helped fixed all those errors (and many others, I just was only in the loop on that set of issues). Like being not able to be seiged in your third from the Terran main in Antiga? Yea a map team fixed that. Blizz maps are FULL of bugs, just mapmakers like the ones you are flaming fixed them FOR Blizzard. >.<
This is seriously the first tournament I have seen since beta where the players want ladder maps, absolutely baffling that you want to trust $1500 cash to a bunch of maps not designed for tournament use or competitive play at all JUST IN CASE a Bronze player would have won the whole thing but did not because of the maps (which would not happen).
Odd....
Aren't you from Michigan?
What i could basically glean from this is that it's okay for ESV maps to have bugs because blizzard maps have bugs too? Given the choice of two buggy maps, one of which i play every day, and the other i've never seen before, i'll play the one i know. I apologize, because i'm not quite sure how i should address your confusion to the situation.
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this is actually silly, a tournament like fragapalooza that seeds you based on the time it takes you to win deserves a thread like this.
CASL guaranteed 1500$ for a tourny, spreads the prize pool out so top 16 get their money back and it just goes up, and they looked around and realized that tournament maps have stagnated and partnered with esv to bring us the best maps that north america can offer and this thread sounds like a bunch of babies. Constructive criticism is awesome...people said that they want ladder maps, CASL explained their reasons why they want new maps and then said people went crazy!
The new maps are awesome cirno ur awesome....sunshine shape up man (haha had to poke you again!)
pretty soon im going to have to pull a morrow and just to prove you all silly...
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On November 09 2011 16:09 tQArchaic wrote:Show nested quote +Play Zerg in July 2010 and tell me there's no such thing as imbalance. Some of these maps are good, others are completely trash. If there's a map that forces me to kill my opponent before 14:00 or else I lose, I wouldn't call that imbalance -- I would call it terrible design.
Edit: On top of that, I'm not spending $40 to have some terrain abused and knock me out much earlier than I should be. I place high every tournament I attend, but if somebody wants to abuse the "rocks in the water" at my 3rd in Ithaca then that might allow a weaker player to abuse horrible map design and take a game off me that they wouldn't normally be able to. Its like you say that and i acknowledge that the consensus was there was imbalance and yet nestea and fruitdealer both rose above the quoted imbalance to win. The more skilled player will win. If you know theres a spot that abusable expand somewhere else like into a main for a easy third, its like simple fixes from a competitors standpoint so the reality is solve the problem
Fruitdealer won his ZvTs with bugged ultralisks that would kill every SCV repairing a PF or would splash every thor in a group. There was also a significant patch immediately before the finals that nerfed: BCs, Reapers, Tanks, Bunkers. When Nestea won, roach range had already been increased, reapers nerfed out of the game, medivacs nerfed, Barracks nerf, VR nerf, on top of the nerfs seen during the Fruitdealer saga.
I'd say those are pretty significant nerfs... If you want to see what life was like before that, go watch MorroW vs IdrA finals from IEM Cologne.
On November 09 2011 16:13 Cirno wrote:
There's too much drama in this thread for me to read but I'll just put in my 2 cents without sounding like a total moron. I think it's pretty sad to see the state of affairs the general SC2 scene is in as opposed to broodwar. Back in broodwar new maps were loved and cherished and people couldn't wait to try them out and practice on them. But sadly in sc2, that is not the case. For the majority of players we're all just stuck on the blizzard maps, which for the most part are quite bad, because of this I thought people would love learning and trying out new maps, but it appears I was wrong. It's sad to see a lot of the new people in the scene now because of starcraft 2 that are too used to the maps blizzard puts out to try anything new, which for the most part has turned a lot of people into 1 dimensional 1 trick ponies. A good player can learn and adapt to new maps regardless of how much time they have, even a couple hours a night is enough for sc2. Yes I understand people are upset because the map pool was "forced" on us (silly word to use imo) yes I also understand it's a 1500 dollar tournament, but we have to break out of this repetition of using the same maps for every single tournament, because in the long run it'll make us all better as starcraft players being able to adapt to new things rather than refusing to change from the old.
Well since I've played BW dating back to the Gamei days -- I even remember when NrG was formed. I think I have seen enough to form an opinion. Most of the maps that were played were made by KeSPA map makers, extensively tested, and tried out in pro leagues. Gaema Gowon, Nostalgia, Luna, etc. weren't community maps, they were KeSPA maps.
This may be a "$1500 tournament" but this $1500 is coming out of OUR pockets. It's not like some company is putting down $1500 as a sponsorship. If there isn't enough return on the $1500, these tournaments will likely not continue and will probably return to the $20 buy in, 50% into the prize pool type of thing we've had since last year.
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rofl u just crapped on some of the best players in the world. I think I would think its the players that won the games not the developers...but if you really want to blame the developers for a races troubles then have the easy way out! People think very strange things
**edit and of course i watched morrow and idra and i watched idra respond terribly to reapers...i still think reapers were fine as they were its just zerg took time to learn to defend just like it took alot of time to develop a build so different from the norm as the 5 rax reaper was! It was morrow brilliance that won the series not the games imbalance
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On November 09 2011 16:14 ander wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 15:59 Diamond wrote:
I'm actually a bit speechless that in a $1500 tournament people are arguing FOR ladder maps, what?
Everyone's complaining about lack of replays, I'll drop about 100 replays (guesstimate on the #) in this thread tomorrow of really good Koreans playing on these very maps for you guys.
Also anyone that argues that Blizz maps don't have bugs has never opened a Blizz map. The MLG XNC? Has like 3-4 positions that units will (and have in pro games) get stuck on and glitch out. Our map team helped fixed all those errors (and many others, I just was only in the loop on that set of issues). Like being not able to be seiged in your third from the Terran main in Antiga? Yea a map team fixed that. Blizz maps are FULL of bugs, just mapmakers like the ones you are flaming fixed them FOR Blizzard. >.<
This is seriously the first tournament I have seen since beta where the players want ladder maps, absolutely baffling that you want to trust $1500 cash to a bunch of maps not designed for tournament use or competitive play at all JUST IN CASE a Bronze player would have won the whole thing but did not because of the maps (which would not happen).
Odd.... Aren't you from Michigan? What i could basically glean from this is that it's okay for ESV maps to have bugs because blizzard maps have bugs too? Given the choice of two buggy maps, one of which i play every day, and the other i've never seen before, i'll play the one i know. I apologize, because i'm not quite sure how i should address your confusion to the situation. Oh, you must be on the ESV team. Go figure.
Yes I am from Michigan. What does that have to do with anything?
No we prefer our maps to be bug free. Our average bug discovery to fix time is something like 4 hours currently? This Ithaca one might take like a whole idk 24.
Blizzard maps never get fixed. Antiga (Blizz) will allow you to seige the third from the main until it rotates out.
In over 1000 documented professional games, not once has a bug made any impact on a game on our maps. How's that?
You guys are acting like we are amateurs and it's frankly insulting. The ESV map team is the first and one of the very very top premiere map teams in the world, stop acting like we just throw shit together. Our maps are designed hand in hand with the very best Korean players in the world, which no other map makers including Blizzard can claim.
You are asking the tournament organizer to put $1500 soley on maps that the very makers of the maps have said should NOT be played in tournaments, and in no way are designed for it.
Also I will point out Sanshorn Mist AE is also used in all ESL EU events, the absolute premiere E-Sports organization in Europe, as many of our maps have been. It's again insulting to insist they are not used.
Frankly you are being unfair because you are saying people should not have to practice new things to win a tourney. That's insane. If you want to win $1500 tournaments you better be expected to practice. Koreans will practice these maps for $200 a week, you are too good to practice them for $1500 in a weekend? That's just being lazy and spoiled.
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It's hilarious that people are making this big of a fuss over 3 maps. If all the people crying are the majority and not just a really obnoxious minority, chances are you wont have to play the map to begin with. Well unless you run into someone that put in the effort to win (who probably would have beat you to begin with).
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Koreans will practice these maps for $200 a week, you are too good to practice them for $1500 in a weekend? That's just being lazy and spoiled.
I couldn't fucking agree more. In other news, Ithaca fix getting posted in the next 30min
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I guess I'll just keep my criticism to myself next time; my intention was for it to be constructive, hopefully that's how it was perceived. I feel I've made some valid points, but whatever. It's understandable that you'd defend your maps. I'm going regardless.
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I love our little community but I dunno what's causing all this in this thread. I'm going to have to agree with Diamond as well.
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well i think you were the least of the flamers ander haha you didnt even threaten to not go!
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On November 09 2011 16:21 tQArchaic wrote:
rofl u just crapped on some of the best players in the world. I think I would think its the players that won the games not the developers...but if you really want to blame the developers for a races troubles then have the easy way out! People think very strange things
**edit and of course i watched morrow and idra and i watched idra respond terribly to reapers...i still think reapers were fine as they were its just zerg took time to learn to defend just like it took alot of time to develop a build so different from the norm as the 5 rax reaper was! It was morrow brilliance that won the series not the games imbalance
Fruitdealer isn't even code A right now. Hell, my Terran practice partner absolutely shat on ST_Rainbow the other day. Does that mean my friend deserves to win the GSL? The Nestea championship win was after everything was patched. I didn't crap on him, I'm just saying his win came AFTER the patches to fix the supposedly non-existent "imbalance."
Of course, you were Terran during that time. Terran has never had to deal with issues like those, its historical win rate has never dropped below 50%.
http://i.imgur.com/JW38u.png
Of course, we all know Terran players are just better and smarter than the rest.
On November 09 2011 16:24 Diamond wrote:
Frankly you are being unfair because you are saying people should not have to practice new things to win a tourney. That's insane. If you want to win $1500 tournaments you better be expected to practice. Koreans will practice these maps for $200 a week, you are too good to practice them for $1500 in a weekend? That's just being lazy and spoiled.
It's $360, not $1500. Read the first post instead of just blindly defending the maps.
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On November 09 2011 16:33 chadissilent wrote:
It's $360, not $1500. Read the first post instead of just blindly defending the maps.
The prize pool is $1500, as per the OP.
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"How NrG was looked at by the rest of the players"
what's that supposed to mean?
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comparing where a player is today and where they were when they were at the top of their game hold very little merit in my eyes...players change, skill level decreases rapidly.
as far as terrans being smarter and better i think theres just alot more terrans that play at a top level in korea then the other races, and tvt developed so quickly that it found a stable metagame that involved solid play! Thats why the winrate is higher in my eyes, more players of the race means matchups are developed faster then other races in general...more minds....not necessarily smarter
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On November 09 2011 16:24 Diamond wrote:
In over 1000 documented professional games, not once has a bug made any impact on a game on our maps. How's that?
This is also incorrect. I was watching a ZvT on one of the maps (can't remember which one atm, it had a free in-base expansion and then one a little further out of your base. The Zerg player kept having his units glitch out at the bottom of the ramps in any engagement and was taking substantially more losses than he should have.
On November 09 2011 16:36 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 16:33 chadissilent wrote:
It's $360, not $1500. Read the first post instead of just blindly defending the maps. The prize pool is $1500, as per the OP.
I didn't know a single player practices to win the entire prize pool.
On November 09 2011 16:38 Cirno wrote:
"How NrG was looked at by the rest of the players"
what's that supposed to mean?
Oh nothing, I probably shouldn't have put that down. NrG was looked at as just another new team during that era, nothing more or less than that. I'll actually edit that out since it's irrelevant.
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my bad, I thought you were just taking a pot shot at NrG. To be fair I wasn't on NrG in broodwar, I was basically teamless my entire broodwar career from WGT (one of the first online ladders aside from blizzard's broodwar one) to neo game-i to pgtour to iccup.
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Ithaca fix posted here
If you find anymore issues like this, post them in that thread and they'll get fixed ASAP. The more documentation you can provide, the better. If you're just going to scream "ur map is bad fuck u" instead of help me try to make it as best as it can be well... you're the ones playing it in the tournament. I'll fix whatever bugs you find but
Also, ESV Sungsu Crossing AE was published properly on NA earlier today. iCCup Sungsu Crossing AE has been removed as it's out of date.
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On November 09 2011 16:45 chadissilent wrote:
This is also incorrect. I was watching a ZvT on one of the maps (can't remember which one atm, it had a free in-base expansion and then one a little further out of your base. The Zerg player kept having his units glitch out at the bottom of the ramps in any engagement and was taking substantially more losses than he should have.
lol ok 1 game, you got me. 1 out of 1000 I can live with. I actually would love to see this VOD so we can get it fixed. Can you perhaps link it or give me some more info on the game other then TvZ?
I didn't know a single player practices to win the entire prize pool.
There is $1500 in prizes. Is the MLG National Championships a $120,000 or $50,000 tournament? Even if your logic holds then Koreans practice them for $100 a week. Either way I cannot see how you expect a tournament to cater large prize pools while setting up a rule set/map pool that caters to the players that do not practice.
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On November 09 2011 16:30 ander wrote:
I guess I'll just keep my criticism to myself next time; my intention was for it to be constructive, hopefully that's how it was perceived. I feel I've made some valid points, but whatever. It's understandable that you'd defend your maps. I'm going regardless.
Quoted cause I feel the exact same way...
It's unfortunate that this issue is snowballing like this, really, couldn't a middle ground be reached? Implement 1 new map, give us more GSL/MLG?
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this is probably the worst thread on TL atm lol
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EPT
