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On November 08 2011 06:34 Diamond wrote:
It's amazing how the Korean players will play on any maps with no prior experience on them with 0 complaints yet people in NA and EU cry like hell every time a new map is used. ......
I get you guys are not pros, but the maps don't play out THAT different (it's not like you need to make up whole new builds and strats for them)....
+ Show Spoiler +It's amazing that you guys give such a shit trying to promote your maps every chance you get. Especially at these local tournaments, where NOONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT YOUR CUSTOM MAPS. You have your own tournaments, stop trying to impose your maps on everything. If you guys wanna shell out some funds, then yeah then tournaments have a reason to use them, but until a significant impression is made on these tournaments, theres no reason to play them. Noone plays them for a reason. It takes enough time to ladder and do regular custom games, let alone play maps that noone plays. And sorry for sounding like an prick, but where do you get off comparing pro gamers in Korea to casual- semi-semi-semi pro at best players. Get off your high horse and stop being butthurt people dont want to play your maps. It gives such a dynamic advantage to players who have played vs havent played the maps so take your head out of your ass, and back to your korean weeklies where they belong. Maybe that will show you why basically noone uses your maps.... lmfao.
On November 07 2011 12:32 Gofarman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 10:11 s[O]rry wrote:
Practicing these right maps right now... When searching for Sungsu we found it under Iccup.. Not sure about Sanshorn yet, but probably the same thing since the only ESV map is Ithica.
EDIT: Soooooo after playing on Sungsu Crossing AE... Just going to throw this out there... The Natural mineral line can be sieged from the low ground outside the natural. If you look at the map, or happen to be playing on it, you will notice that means the defender has to actually walk through the tank fire, around a wall, and down the ramp to actually get to the tanks that are capable of killing your workers.
So, might wanna either fix that or replace the map. It is something that should be addressed. I would like to refer you to the TLPD index for that map where it is used in the Korean Weekly currently and has been for near 3 months. I ask that you don't just write these maps off, they are all viable in there current state at the top level. If you have some constructive feedback about either a specific map or the overall map pool please let me know though. Thanks. TLPD- ICCUP Sungsu Crossing AE
+ Show Spoiler +Sorry but theres a reason the Korean Weekly is the only place to really use ESV or ICCUP whatever bullshit they wanna call themselves. (Asides testbug ofc)
On November 07 2011 17:08 alokin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 06:23 Oldboysctv wrote:
lol sinatra didnt bm at fraga the other guy was the one that was bm,
but this event will be great. lots of decent talent is gonna show up. get off his dick bro. he was total BM. he was the one that instigated and started that whole shit cause the other guy rolled through his friends. if this isnt instigating then i don't know what is: "my friends told me to fucking destroy you, what do you think?"
if im also not mistaken you were the one who talked shit to me after I knocked you out of fraga too. slow your roll bud.
+ Show Spoiler +Cool story bro.
You guys were the ones who take shit so seriously you can make an excuse at fragapalooza of all places to try and stir shit up.
On November 07 2011 08:32 prodiG wrote:
The maps aren't chose for bias, they're chosen because this is what we foel will be the greatest determinant of skill
+ Show Spoiler +Guess thats why the GSL uses them.....
Oh wait.
User was warned for this post
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They used crossfire and dual sight in GSL, I don't get your argument.
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On November 08 2011 07:09 KingDime wrote:
They used crossfire and dual sight in GSL, I don't get your argument.
Yeah crossfire was an edited blizzard map, and Dual Sight was made by a professional mapmaker
+ Show Spoiler +
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Dual sight is the most horrid pvz map i've ever played.
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Yeah and there are some professional rules in PROFESSIONAL sports that are pretty horrid as well. But theres a reason people emulate the NHL and not the QMJHL
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On November 08 2011 06:34 Diamond wrote:
It's amazing how the Korean players will play on any maps with no prior experience on them with 0 complaints yet people in NA and EU cry like hell every time a new map is used. ......
I get you guys are not pros, but the maps don't play out THAT different (it's not like you need to make up whole new builds and strats for them)....
1. We aren't pros; the korean players you're talking about are competing for Code-A spots, why would they complain? I dunno how you can even make that comparison.
2. It really seems like the only people who want ESV maps are the ESV dudes. That doesn't seem fair to have these maps imposed on people who would much rather not play them.
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On November 08 2011 07:26 ander wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 06:34 Diamond wrote:
It's amazing how the Korean players will play on any maps with no prior experience on them with 0 complaints yet people in NA and EU cry like hell every time a new map is used. ......
I get you guys are not pros, but the maps don't play out THAT different (it's not like you need to make up whole new builds and strats for them).... 1. We aren't pros; the korean players you're talking about are competing for Code-A spots, why would they complain? I dunno how you can even make that comparison. 2. It really seems like the only people who want ESV maps are the ESV dudes. That doesn't seem fair to have these maps imposed on people who would much rather not play them.
We didn't select the map pool, the tourney admin did.......
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How about we stop the Bitch fest the maps are chosen they are not the best get over it
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On November 08 2011 06:34 Diamond wrote:
It's amazing how the Korean players will play on any maps with no prior experience on them with 0 complaints yet people in NA and EU cry like hell every time a new map is used. ......
I get you guys are not pros, but the maps don't play out THAT different (it's not like you need to make up whole new builds and strats for them)....
The comparison with korean players is kind of... irrelevant.
Why would we want to pay money to go to a LAN, play our hearts out, and lose a decisive match because we didn't know you could put tanks at a certain spot or we didn't know how long it would take our units to get from one spot to another?
There's a compensation problem. The new maps come with certain downsides for players who haven't played on them, but we aren't benefiting by them being used. With the standard maps, those problems don't exist. It is not unreasonable to show displeasure in this thread about the map pool when we're told that we have to face these problems with new maps for no reason that is apparent to us. Where was the clamour to play on these maps?
It isn't the biggest deal, but I think criticism is not out of line.
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On November 08 2011 08:10 SiguR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 06:34 Diamond wrote:
It's amazing how the Korean players will play on any maps with no prior experience on them with 0 complaints yet people in NA and EU cry like hell every time a new map is used. ......
I get you guys are not pros, but the maps don't play out THAT different (it's not like you need to make up whole new builds and strats for them).... The comparison with korean players is kind of... irrelevant. Why would we want to pay money to go to a LAN, play our hearts out, and lose a decisive match because we didn't know you could put tanks at a certain spot or we didn't know how long it would take our units to get from one spot to another? There's a compensation problem. The new maps come with certain downsides for players who haven't played on them, but we aren't benefiting by them being used. With the standard maps, those problems don't exist. It is not unreasonable to show displeasure in this thread about the map pool when we're told that we have to face these problems with new maps for no reason that is apparent to us. Where was the clamour to play on these maps? It isn't the biggest deal, but I think criticism is not out of line.
You would rather possibly lose to maps that were not designed in any way shape or form for tournament play and often containing positional imbalances? Cause that's ladder maps.
Idk I just find this weird, I'm from the Michigan scene and our local players not only love but are so happy when new better maps are introduced. If Katrina was being used I could see a issue cause Katrina requires a totally different style. However Ithaca plays out not much different then Antiga in cross positions, and Sanshorn is basically a 2p Shakuras. Almost everything you do on those maps will work, they play out like any macro map with a easily defendable expo.
Sungsu is probably the most "radical" (using that term very loosely here) and it's still very straightforward. Very rush heavy, play safe, play like you would on say XNC. It's the one map I could see being an issue, but again it's not very crazy, just the 3 chokes leading into the natural are the only things that require any active thought.
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On November 08 2011 08:28 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 08:10 SiguR wrote:On November 08 2011 06:34 Diamond wrote:
It's amazing how the Korean players will play on any maps with no prior experience on them with 0 complaints yet people in NA and EU cry like hell every time a new map is used. ......
I get you guys are not pros, but the maps don't play out THAT different (it's not like you need to make up whole new builds and strats for them).... The comparison with korean players is kind of... irrelevant. Why would we want to pay money to go to a LAN, play our hearts out, and lose a decisive match because we didn't know you could put tanks at a certain spot or we didn't know how long it would take our units to get from one spot to another? There's a compensation problem. The new maps come with certain downsides for players who haven't played on them, but we aren't benefiting by them being used. With the standard maps, those problems don't exist. It is not unreasonable to show displeasure in this thread about the map pool when we're told that we have to face these problems with new maps for no reason that is apparent to us. Where was the clamour to play on these maps? It isn't the biggest deal, but I think criticism is not out of line. You would rather possibly lose to maps that were not designed in any way shape or form for tournament play and often containing positional imbalances? Cause that's ladder maps. Idk I just find this weird, I'm from the Michigan scene and our local players not only love but are so happy when new better maps are introduced. If Katrina was being used I could see a issue cause Katrina requires a totally different style. However Ithaca plays out not much different then Antiga in cross positions, and Sanshorn is basically a 2p Shakuras. Almost everything you do on those maps will work, they play out like any macro map with a easily defendable expo. Sungsu is probably the most "radical" (using that term very loosely here) and it's still very straightforward. Very rush heavy, play safe, play like you would on say XNC. It's the one map I could see being an issue, but again it's not very crazy, just the 3 chokes leading into the natural are the only things that require any active thought.
i'd rather lose to my own mistakes or my opponents excellent play. That is much more likely to happen on maps i'm familiar with, and that's the bottom line.
These maps may play out similar to ladder maps in a broad sense, but that isn't the point. There are always going to be subtleties to the map that need to be learned over time. Not knowing the subtleties is one of the disadvantages i was talking about in my previous post. We are facing uncompensated disadvantages for no clear reason, hence the "i'm disappointed in the map pool" posts that are the cause for this conversation.
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On November 08 2011 08:28 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 08:10 SiguR wrote:On November 08 2011 06:34 Diamond wrote:
It's amazing how the Korean players will play on any maps with no prior experience on them with 0 complaints yet people in NA and EU cry like hell every time a new map is used. ......
I get you guys are not pros, but the maps don't play out THAT different (it's not like you need to make up whole new builds and strats for them).... The comparison with korean players is kind of... irrelevant. Why would we want to pay money to go to a LAN, play our hearts out, and lose a decisive match because we didn't know you could put tanks at a certain spot or we didn't know how long it would take our units to get from one spot to another? There's a compensation problem. The new maps come with certain downsides for players who haven't played on them, but we aren't benefiting by them being used. With the standard maps, those problems don't exist. It is not unreasonable to show displeasure in this thread about the map pool when we're told that we have to face these problems with new maps for no reason that is apparent to us. Where was the clamour to play on these maps? It isn't the biggest deal, but I think criticism is not out of line. You would rather possibly lose to maps that were not designed in any way shape or form for tournament play and often containing positional imbalances? Cause that's ladder maps. Idk I just find this weird, I'm from the Michigan scene and our local players not only love but are so happy when new better maps are introduced. If Katrina was being used I could see a issue cause Katrina requires a totally different style. However Ithaca plays out not much different then Antiga in cross positions, and Sanshorn is basically a 2p Shakuras. Almost everything you do on those maps will work, they play out like any macro map with a easily defendable expo. Sungsu is probably the most "radical" (using that term very loosely here) and it's still very straightforward. Very rush heavy, play safe, play like you would on say XNC. It's the one map I could see being an issue, but again it's not very crazy, just the 3 chokes leading into the natural are the only things that require any active thought.
While ladder maps are not "Perfect" they are at least played hundreds and thousands of times by most of the players attending. Even the positional imbalances that you speak of have been played enough times that your average Gold player has a plan for what to do IF something does come up.
Playing the exact same style of new maps can often lead to a game changing decision that can work on one map (Imagine a roach timing on Antiga ZvP, going through the rocks to the third) to just being completely wrecked on another (2 forcefields in either direction can isolate the third on Ithaca iirc).
So yes it is possible to just take your games and superimpose them onto new maps. Will it work? Probably. Is it worth it to lose a money game on a tank on the low ground that you didn't think could range your natural? No. Not for a $40 entrance fee.
I am going to play whatever maps are presented, because that is what I do. I am going to learn Ithaca, and Sanshorn and Sungsu. I have the time to do that. But Johnny Bronze-player is not, and do we really want him to be upset that he lost his first tournament in two rounds because he didn't know the maps?
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On November 08 2011 04:58 DYEAlabaster wrote:Two things I'd like to ask: 1- What provoked this map pool? As has already been stated, 3/7 of these maps are those that this demographic would have absolutely zero exposure to. I understand they are used in Korean weeklies, but I don't know anyone who plays in those... It seems weird to have such unknown (not to mention stylistic) maps in the map pool, rather than ones that everyone would have a chance to play/have been proven to be wholly balanced (many of the maps on the weekly are still in testing/not truly level, eg, Bel-Shir Beach pre-patch). I'm not flaming or nagging the pool, I'm just wondering why we are playing with such maps. If we are going to map exposure, why not have 1, max 2, rather than 3/7... It seems a bit overkill. And the good point was made that many people are not going to have time to practise all of these new maps... and it might turn away players who are bordering with going/not. Also, 1 map veto seems a bit irrelevant.... being able to veto 1/3 unknown maps doesn't do much for the fact that 2/3 can still be chosen. 2- I don't quite understand the decision behind the prize-pool. Ignoring that it doesn't add up to 1500 (more 1350, but this is unimportant), why was there a choice made to include 9-16 in the prizes? I mean, I understand that choice for either a more casual event or a larger pool of money, but I'm just wondering why this was the case, rather than inflating the 1-3 prizes more... Is it that you are planning on the prize pool expanding in the future as more sponsors come along, and you are setting a precedent for the distribution ratio? Maybe it's just my personal bias for rewarding only the top, however  (ps, I understand that almost all "big" tournaments reward up until XXspot, but they also have much much more money to drop)
First of all thanks for the feedback, about the prizepool that was an oversight and has been rectified. It now equals 1500$. As for the distribution it was purely a business decision. Since the buy-in is a bit high for some people I want to have a competitive tourney that can be sustainable, for the tourney to be sustainable we need to be able to draw more then our other normal tourney's in Edmonton this allows many of those players that end up in the top 8-16 range to rationalize the price.
If you guys have any questions I will be at the OverKlocked this evening from 6-10 for the SC2 night. Cya there.
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On November 08 2011 09:36 Gofarman wrote:
First of all thanks for the feedback, about the prizepool that was an oversight and has been rectified. It now equals 1500$. As for the distribution it was purely a business decision. Since the buy-in is a bit high for some people I want to have a competitive tourney that can be sustainable, for the tourney to be sustainable we need to be able to draw more then our other normal tourney's in Edmonton this allows many of those players that end up in the top 8-16 range to rationalize the price.
If you guys have any questions I will be at the OverKlocked this evening from 6-10 for the SC2 night. Cya there.
Thanks for the clarification, that makes sense. All I can hope is that this becomes (much) bigger so that more money can be transferred through it ^^
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I am going to play whatever maps are presented, because that is what I do. I am going to learn Ithaca, and Sanshorn and Sungsu. I have the time to do that. But Johnny Bronze-player is not, and do we really want him to be upset that he lost his first tournament in two rounds because he didn't know the maps?
Not to specifically alienate Johnny Bronze here but this tournament is clearly designed for competitive players with the much larger entry fee & map pool. The point of CASL is to showcase the skill of local Canadian talent and frankly... that's not going to be Johnny Bronze, or anyone else not willing to learn things like new maps.
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On November 08 2011 08:28 Diamond wrote:
You would rather possibly lose to maps that were not designed in any way shape or form for tournament play and often containing positional imbalances? Cause that's ladder maps.
Idk I just find this weird, I'm from the Michigan scene and our local players not only love but are so happy when new better maps are introduced. If Katrina was being used I could see a issue cause Katrina requires a totally different style. However Ithaca plays out not much different then Antiga in cross positions, and Sanshorn is basically a 2p Shakuras. Almost everything you do on those maps will work, they play out like any macro map with a easily defendable expo.
Sungsu is probably the most "radical" (using that term very loosely here) and it's still very straightforward. Very rush heavy, play safe, play like you would on say XNC. It's the one map I could see being an issue, but again it's not very crazy, just the 3 chokes leading into the natural are the only things that require any active thought.
I think the issue here isn't that the maps are "strange", but that they're new and unknown. It's not that people don't want to play them, it's that people don't want to bet $40 on their ability to know a map after, say, 5 games on it.
And I feel the big issue isn't that there exist maps made by others, it's the sheer volume of them. 42% of our maps are completely unknown, relatively untested maps. Given a veto, this would still be an issue, because people who did not want to play on them would still have to.
Why not settle an issue by limiting the number of maps that people don't have experience with? Personal experience (last tournament) shows that these maps rarely get played in a tournament unless someone has specifically practised it exclusively, knowing that they have an advantage over others. This isn't such a problem with other maps because at least people KNOW them, and how they work.
So, instead of this 3/7 split, why not have ONE ESV/ICCUP map (Ithaca is my personal vote).
If I could have it my way, this is what I would make the map pool-
Antiga Shipyard
Tal'darim Altar LE (both of these are ladder maps and known by everyone for sheer playing amount)
Bel-Shir Beach
Daybreak (two of, what I feel, the better designed GSL maps)
ICCUP Ithaca
Having 5 maps is more than enough for a tournament, but if any were to be added to this, I would say
Dual Sight (or) Testbug
Metalopolis (or) Shattered Temple
Calm Before the Storm
TL;DR ---> New maps are awesome, but shouldn't overwhelm the tournament
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On November 08 2011 08:42 s[O]rry wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 08:28 Diamond wrote:On November 08 2011 08:10 SiguR wrote:On November 08 2011 06:34 Diamond wrote:
It's amazing how the Korean players will play on any maps with no prior experience on them with 0 complaints yet people in NA and EU cry like hell every time a new map is used. ......
I get you guys are not pros, but the maps don't play out THAT different (it's not like you need to make up whole new builds and strats for them).... The comparison with korean players is kind of... irrelevant. Why would we want to pay money to go to a LAN, play our hearts out, and lose a decisive match because we didn't know you could put tanks at a certain spot or we didn't know how long it would take our units to get from one spot to another? There's a compensation problem. The new maps come with certain downsides for players who haven't played on them, but we aren't benefiting by them being used. With the standard maps, those problems don't exist. It is not unreasonable to show displeasure in this thread about the map pool when we're told that we have to face these problems with new maps for no reason that is apparent to us. Where was the clamour to play on these maps? It isn't the biggest deal, but I think criticism is not out of line. You would rather possibly lose to maps that were not designed in any way shape or form for tournament play and often containing positional imbalances? Cause that's ladder maps. Idk I just find this weird, I'm from the Michigan scene and our local players not only love but are so happy when new better maps are introduced. If Katrina was being used I could see a issue cause Katrina requires a totally different style. However Ithaca plays out not much different then Antiga in cross positions, and Sanshorn is basically a 2p Shakuras. Almost everything you do on those maps will work, they play out like any macro map with a easily defendable expo. Sungsu is probably the most "radical" (using that term very loosely here) and it's still very straightforward. Very rush heavy, play safe, play like you would on say XNC. It's the one map I could see being an issue, but again it's not very crazy, just the 3 chokes leading into the natural are the only things that require any active thought. While ladder maps are not "Perfect" they are at least played hundreds and thousands of times by most of the players attending. Even the positional imbalances that you speak of have been played enough times that your average Gold player has a plan for what to do IF something does come up. Playing the exact same style of new maps can often lead to a game changing decision that can work on one map (Imagine a roach timing on Antiga ZvP, going through the rocks to the third) to just being completely wrecked on another (2 forcefields in either direction can isolate the third on Ithaca iirc). So yes it is possible to just take your games and superimpose them onto new maps. Will it work? Probably. Is it worth it to lose a money game on a tank on the low ground that you didn't think could range your natural? No. Not for a $40 entrance fee. I am going to play whatever maps are presented, because that is what I do. I am going to learn Ithaca, and Sanshorn and Sungsu. I have the time to do that. But Johnny Bronze-player is not, and do we really want him to be upset that he lost his first tournament in two rounds because he didn't know the maps?
First off Jonny-Bronze will lose because he is bronze. Not because of the map.
Also to use your point how is it fair to the competitive players that want the most fair maps possible if they lose due to ladder maps? Isn't the whole bitch of this community for over a year been about how Blizz is making sc2 to newb friendly? Why would we want to do the same for tournies?
Also isn't it Blizz that said "our maps are not designed for tournament use."?
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TL;DR ---> New maps are awesome, but shouldn't overwhelm the tournament
Ithaca, Sandshorn Mist and Sungsu Crossing were all used at the last Edmonton SC2 tournament as well and as far as I know that's the only local competition for something like this which was part of the logic behind the selection. Everyone who went to the last Edmonton tournament will likely have seen the maps at LEAST once (far from perfect but better than nothing)
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Ithaca wasn't (it wasn't stated as such anyway).
And yes, while we saw them all once, they were rarely (if ever) played.
also ONCE < #times/ladder/gsl (do keep in mind that replays on those maps help dev. strategies)
Edit: Once doesn't make the maps not-new.
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More upset at taldarim being used then others tbh ... havent we done enough 4gating lately
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EPT
