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On November 06 2011 14:22 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 14:20 Telcontar wrote: MVP showing MMA's drops aren't that special. Well, MMA's drop are the same but with added mutas =) Well if there are mutas, MVP won't even bother to drop. Thats why he so good, dosen't take any risks and loses units needlessly while MMA goes for the jugular and sometimes his drops pay off/or not.
Different styles really, though MVP TvZ will be a lot more consistent since he plays safe. Both still great players.
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On November 06 2011 14:24 eviltomahawk wrote: MVP playing very well but Annyeong also looking surprisingly strong despite be relatively unknown in comparison.
Grats to MVP, who looks poised to win WCG. I may follow Annyeong a bit more seeing how surprisingly decent he played in this last match. I expected a much more dominant win from MVP this series, but Annyeong looking rather good. I think annyeong had his weakest showing in the last game, lots and lots of mistakes piling up.
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On November 06 2011 14:24 Inflicted_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 14:23 DizzySheep wrote:On November 06 2011 14:22 Inflicted_ wrote:On November 06 2011 14:21 ch33psh33p wrote:On November 06 2011 14:20 CEPEHDREI wrote:On November 06 2011 14:20 Telcontar wrote: MVP showing MMA's drops aren't that special. MMAs drops are abit better. There was nothing about those drops that you could say MMA was better. The same? Sure. MMA pushes the same time he's doing the drops. Though, you could say turtling was the better decision in this game. Yeap, with so many banelings on the field, moving out with unsieged tanks ain't the best idea But against mass ling/bling, you could be clearing the creep while you're multi-dropping.
T move out, then Z counter attack.
yeah you gosu =)
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On November 06 2011 14:24 eviltomahawk wrote: MVP playing very well but Annyeong also looking surprisingly strong despite be relatively unknown in comparison.
Grats to MVP, who looks poised to win WCG. I may follow Annyeong a bit more seeing how surprisingly decent he played in this last match. I expected a much more dominant win from MVP this series, but Annyeong looking rather good. The interesting thing is that (if I remember right) he was the guy who denied Jinro Code A 2-1. Says something about Jinro's current form if he can almost win (apparently he threw a lead away in the final game against broodlords) against someone who shows games like Annyeong did (outside of his awful decision making lolo).
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
sC has been on fire lately, but so has SuperNoVa. This should be a good match.
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Man, MVP has been so consistent lately, making it deep in every tournament. GSL win, GSL runner up, Blizzcon win, MLG invitational win, MLG win, Ro4 WCG. All those tournaments in a row, and he's made it past first rounds of ace invitational and GSL november
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Epic TvT incoming. So excited for this match!
Let the return of sC CONTINUE!
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if only MVP didnt have carpel tunnel, wonder how good he can really be :/
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On November 06 2011 14:28 Itsmedudeman wrote: Man, MVP has been so consistent lately, making it deep in every tournament. GSL win, GSL runner up, Blizzcon win, MLG invitational win, MLG win, Ro4 WCG. All those tournaments in a row, and he's made it past first rounds of ace invitational and GSL november
Makes me happy. :')
When MVP dropped to Code A, those were dark, dark times. T_T
But now he's back where he belongs. :D
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Australia18228 Posts
On November 06 2011 14:26 poorcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 14:22 MrCon wrote:On November 06 2011 14:20 Telcontar wrote: MVP showing MMA's drops aren't that special. Well, MMA's drop are the same but with added mutas =) Well if there are mutas, MVP won't even bother to drop. Thats why he so good, dosen't take any risks and loses units needlessly while MMA goes for the jugular and sometimes his drops pay off/or not. Different styles really, though MVP TvZ will be a lot more consistent since he plays safe. Both still great players.
Yeah, they play completely different styles.
MMA uses his multi-tasking to wither down the Zerg as they stop focusing on upgrades/creep spread/muta-usage if they're constantly cleaning up drops, pushes and whatnot.
MVP plays completely safe building up his siege tank count and either waits for the Zerg to be aggressive (which is unfavorable for Zergs) or they lose to his end-game composition.
MMA loses to those who are good enough to crush his drops or deal enough damage in return while MVP loses to any Zerg who understands how late-game works and sets themself up for it (upgrades, hive tech, broods, creep spread etc.)
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On November 06 2011 14:29 hai2u wrote: if only MVP didnt have carpel tunnel, wonder how good he can really be :/
Well he was beginning to do decent in BW at the end of his career, beating some really good players. If he didn't have any, i wager he probably be an actual A-Teamer
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On November 06 2011 14:30 Inflicted_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 14:26 poorcloud wrote:On November 06 2011 14:22 MrCon wrote:On November 06 2011 14:20 Telcontar wrote: MVP showing MMA's drops aren't that special. Well, MMA's drop are the same but with added mutas =) Well if there are mutas, MVP won't even bother to drop. Thats why he so good, dosen't take any risks and loses units needlessly while MMA goes for the jugular and sometimes his drops pay off/or not. Different styles really, though MVP TvZ will be a lot more consistent since he plays safe. Both still great players. Yeah, they play completely different styles. MMA uses his multi-tasking to wither down the Zerg as they stop focusing on upgrades/creep spread/muta-usage if they're constantly cleaning up drops, pushes and whatnot. MVP plays completely safe building up his siege tank count and either waits for the Zerg to be aggressive (which is unfavorable for Zergs) or they lose to his end-game composition. MMA loses to those who are good enough to crush his drops or deal enough damage in return while MVP loses to any Zerg who understands how late-game works and sets themself up for it (upgrades, hive tech, broods, creep spread etc.) Except neither of them have lost a televised series TvZ to anything other than cheese/timings (MVP lost 1 series to July's baneling busts, MMA 1 series to Lucky's roachling timing). So apparently no ones good enough and no one understands lategame =P
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On November 06 2011 14:09 Jehct wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 13:55 ftd.rain wrote:On November 06 2011 13:43 Jehct wrote:On November 06 2011 13:37 ftd.rain wrote:On November 06 2011 13:30 Jehct wrote:On November 06 2011 13:25 ftd.rain wrote: And some dude kept arguing with me that thors are good and that idra was right about his whining, even MVP can't make pure mech work tvz , annyeong didn't lose a single muta to the 4 thors, mech just isn't viable tvz. Complaining that 4 thors without scv support die to 25 mutas is the equivalent of complaining that 24 marines without medivacs do nothing to a well-micro'd muta ball. Don't be stupid. I'm not arguing that they should've won, I'm arguing that mech isn't a viable option for an infinity of reasons and that people stop crying about the warhounds, thors are the only anti-air available for mech but they take a long time to build and if you go thors the entire game the zerg can just win with pure roaches because you won't have enough tanks, and a muta switch is often deadly and very easy to do if the terran doesn't have the exact amount of thors at all times and if you don't have a critical mass of thors they die without killing a single muta.Also, your analogy made absolutely no sense, don't be stupid. You're saying that mech doesn't work in ZvT when multiple people are doing it including MVP (against Nestea as well as here). Mech also knocked out Nestea in the RO32 (mass thor/hellion mech no less). Secondly, how did my analogy make no sense? I took the exact same mineral counts (1200) and compared them. You can up that to like 35-40 marines and, if upgrades are even, a well micro'd 25+ muta ball will still take barely any losses. Bouncing in and out of range is cool like that. Medivacs totally null the argument, however (sorta like scv's repairing thors). Multiple people?Happy, MVP and gumiho in a couple of games, who else? And iirc their lowest win ratio come from playing mech. 4 thors = 40 marines, no way 40 marines don't kill way the hell more mutas than the thors in any situation and please be my guest and give the mutas to jaedong, your analogy was horrible. 3 != multiple to you? Gumiho only plays mech in a couple of games? You seriously want to trade gas > minerals 1:1? And Jaedong could kill a marine/tank ball with 40 marines without losing a single fucking mutalisk; have you seen what happens if there isn't medivac support in that situation? Forcing stims and running away isn't hard, nor is picking off any marines on the edges off the ball. The advantage of marines over thors is that they can buy time (yay reinforcements), get upgrade advantages and have a ton of units that are generally stupid good against anything that isn't a baneling; thor's are very different. That has nothing to do with how good each is against mutas. You're making my head hurt by going into every argument with the assumption that you're right. Read you're first post again before you try and call me stupid. Given the amount of terrans playing at the highest level, I consider 3 to be a pretty bleak number.Oh yea! You are right, gas is actually more valuable than minerals in almost every situation, so 4 thors = 50 marines , also, our main issue was always direct engagements, i.e when the zerg player is forced to defend or vice-versa, with 50 marines no amount of muta micro is gonna help and since the zerg will have a decently sized mutaball there won't be that many banelings to help against marines coming from every side, thors aren't nearly as efficient as marines vs mutas, they are actually a horrible anti-air how can you even begin to argue against that?
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Hmm, I feel like with better micro sC should've won right there.
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On November 06 2011 14:27 Jehct wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 14:24 eviltomahawk wrote: MVP playing very well but Annyeong also looking surprisingly strong despite be relatively unknown in comparison.
Grats to MVP, who looks poised to win WCG. I may follow Annyeong a bit more seeing how surprisingly decent he played in this last match. I expected a much more dominant win from MVP this series, but Annyeong looking rather good. The interesting thing is that (if I remember right) he was the guy who denied Jinro Code A 2-1. Says something about Jinro's current form if he can almost win (apparently he threw a lead away in the final game against broodlords) against someone who shows games like Annyeong did (outside of his awful decision making lolo).
outside of his awful decision making...? what the hell is this...if you think "outside of his awful decision making" it's not him any more...how about this: i can beat mvp if I have some gosu micro and macro and decision making...but it's not me any more...
see my point?
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
sC was too aggressive with those marines. He should've just contained the natural and not let sC mine instead of rushing up into the main.
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Its unbelievable how sC went from winning the game to absolutely being destroyed...
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Poll: Recommend Supernova vs sC (Game 1)?Yes (9) 75% No (2) 17% If you have time (1) 8% 12 total votes Your vote: Recommend Supernova vs sC (Game 1)? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): If you have time
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On November 06 2011 14:35 ftd.rain wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 14:09 Jehct wrote:On November 06 2011 13:55 ftd.rain wrote:On November 06 2011 13:43 Jehct wrote:On November 06 2011 13:37 ftd.rain wrote:On November 06 2011 13:30 Jehct wrote:On November 06 2011 13:25 ftd.rain wrote: And some dude kept arguing with me that thors are good and that idra was right about his whining, even MVP can't make pure mech work tvz , annyeong didn't lose a single muta to the 4 thors, mech just isn't viable tvz. Complaining that 4 thors without scv support die to 25 mutas is the equivalent of complaining that 24 marines without medivacs do nothing to a well-micro'd muta ball. Don't be stupid. I'm not arguing that they should've won, I'm arguing that mech isn't a viable option for an infinity of reasons and that people stop crying about the warhounds, thors are the only anti-air available for mech but they take a long time to build and if you go thors the entire game the zerg can just win with pure roaches because you won't have enough tanks, and a muta switch is often deadly and very easy to do if the terran doesn't have the exact amount of thors at all times and if you don't have a critical mass of thors they die without killing a single muta.Also, your analogy made absolutely no sense, don't be stupid. You're saying that mech doesn't work in ZvT when multiple people are doing it including MVP (against Nestea as well as here). Mech also knocked out Nestea in the RO32 (mass thor/hellion mech no less). Secondly, how did my analogy make no sense? I took the exact same mineral counts (1200) and compared them. You can up that to like 35-40 marines and, if upgrades are even, a well micro'd 25+ muta ball will still take barely any losses. Bouncing in and out of range is cool like that. Medivacs totally null the argument, however (sorta like scv's repairing thors). Multiple people?Happy, MVP and gumiho in a couple of games, who else? And iirc their lowest win ratio come from playing mech. 4 thors = 40 marines, no way 40 marines don't kill way the hell more mutas than the thors in any situation and please be my guest and give the mutas to jaedong, your analogy was horrible. 3 != multiple to you? Gumiho only plays mech in a couple of games? You seriously want to trade gas > minerals 1:1? And Jaedong could kill a marine/tank ball with 40 marines without losing a single fucking mutalisk; have you seen what happens if there isn't medivac support in that situation? Forcing stims and running away isn't hard, nor is picking off any marines on the edges off the ball. The advantage of marines over thors is that they can buy time (yay reinforcements), get upgrade advantages and have a ton of units that are generally stupid good against anything that isn't a baneling; thor's are very different. That has nothing to do with how good each is against mutas. You're making my head hurt by going into every argument with the assumption that you're right. Read you're first post again before you try and call me stupid. Given the amount of terrans playing at the highest level, I consider 3 to be a pretty bleak number.Oh yea! You are right, gas is actually more valuable than minerals in almost every situation, so 4 thors = 50 marines , also, our main issue was always direct engagements, i.e when the zerg player is forced to defend or vice-versa, with 50 marines no amount of muta micro is gonna help and since the zerg will have a decently sized mutaball there won't be that many banelings to help against marines coming from every side, thors aren't nearly as efficient as marines vs mutas, they are actually a horrible anti-air how can you even begin to argue against that? My whole point is that both marines and thors suck against mass muta alone. Give marines medivacs and they can cope with the first ~20 mutas; once an Idra-style mutaball (30+ with upgrades) gets out you absolutely need thors. Similarly, give thors repair and armor upgrades and they can cope with mass mutalisks - I have no idea what happens once 30+ upgraded mutas are out, but considering that armor upgrades > mutalisk attack upgrades, it probably isn't pretty for the zerg.
Basically, they both suck. If you don't cover up their weaknesses you should lose. If you have 4 thors or 40 marines and nothing else, it doesn't matter whether you kill 2 mutas or 0, you're still fucked. Don't use one example where someone went into a bad situation with an imbalanced unit composition to make your argument.
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