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On October 15 2011 13:03 tangwhat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 13:01 Exarl25 wrote:On October 15 2011 12:59 tangwhat wrote:On October 15 2011 12:57 Terranist wrote:On October 15 2011 12:54 tangwhat wrote:On October 15 2011 12:52 Terranist wrote:On October 15 2011 12:51 tangwhat wrote:On October 15 2011 12:49 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I really don't know much about protoss strategy, but what is better a pheonix opening or a VR opening. Phoenixes are better. With VR you have to bank on doing damage and it doesn't actually give you map control. With phoenixes you're not crippled when you fail to snipe off queens/whatever. i disagree especially in regards to tyler's build. the VR play a crucial role in forcing july to play two base. It doesn't force july to playing two base it forces july to delay his third by a minute or so which isn't that big of a deal(as it used to be). With VRs you have an extremely slow transition into a useful army composition whereas phoenixes allow a lot more flexibility. not at all. this build on most other maps completely shuts down a fast third, which is why day9 was so concerned with tyler picking metal, a relatively close third base map. void rays will clear out watch towers, effectively putting the zerg in more of a panic. Except what kind of zerg tries to take a fast third when he sees a one basing protoss? Fast thirds are common versus FFE or Nexus first, not against someone who stays on one base for awhile. Secondly if you make more than 2 lings voidrays won't deny scouting at all. I don't think VR is at all viable in PvZ and it's pretty rare that we ever see a top tier zerg actually losing to a VR opener barring IdrA. Tyler wasn't trying to win with the VRs. The idea is to deny the third while simultaneously keeping your expansion safe from any Roach aggression. Tyler loves his safe builds, it's exactly his kind of play. The VRs are his idea of getting himself into a good position in the midgame so actually they're pretty instrumental in getting him wins. And there are better safe builds. I dunno, I gotta admit I'm pretty biased because as much as I love Tyler I really despise stargate openings.
I actually think that kind of opening would probably result in both players going into the midgame relatively even if the Zerg responds well. It's a great build if you are confident in your play and don't want to die to anything stupid early on.
The problem is that July is just better than Tyler so such an opening works against him in the long run.
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Tyler was great in BW in no small part because he was able to practice on ICCUP against Korean A-/A/A+ players. I think being in NA really hamstrings him in this respect, as the NA ladder is pretty bad.
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On October 15 2011 13:03 Terranist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 12:59 tangwhat wrote:On October 15 2011 12:57 Terranist wrote:On October 15 2011 12:54 tangwhat wrote:On October 15 2011 12:52 Terranist wrote:On October 15 2011 12:51 tangwhat wrote:On October 15 2011 12:49 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I really don't know much about protoss strategy, but what is better a pheonix opening or a VR opening. Phoenixes are better. With VR you have to bank on doing damage and it doesn't actually give you map control. With phoenixes you're not crippled when you fail to snipe off queens/whatever. i disagree especially in regards to tyler's build. the VR play a crucial role in forcing july to play two base. It doesn't force july to playing two base it forces july to delay his third by a minute or so which isn't that big of a deal(as it used to be). With VRs you have an extremely slow transition into a useful army composition whereas phoenixes allow a lot more flexibility. not at all. this build on most other maps completely shuts down a fast third, which is why day9 was so concerned with tyler picking metal, a relatively close third base map. void rays will clear out watch towers, effectively putting the zerg in more of a panic. Except what kind of zerg tries to take a fast third when he sees a one basing protoss? Fast thirds are common versus FFE or Nexus first, not against someone who stays on one base for awhile. Secondly if you make more than 2 lings voidrays won't deny scouting at all. I don't think VR is at all viable in PvZ and it's pretty rare that we ever see a top tier zerg actually losing to a VR opener barring IdrA. if he doesn't take a third then he plays right into tyler's build. that is the point of going for VR expand. there is no way for zerg to hold towers vs VR.
Obviously he's going to take a third it's just slightly delayed depending on when the zerg gets his third queen. VR expand I feel relies too much on the zerg player NOT building a third queen because if the zerg does then you don't actually stop the third from going up for that long and then what. You have a few slow voidrays that can't do much harass and a weak gateway army while the protoss tries to tech into robo or take a fast third. Even if the opening goes as well as you could want it to, I don't feel like it leads to a very "safe" midgame as you'll end up taking a risk one way or another.
Edit: The problem might be Tyler trying to get colossi/blink/templar tech and a third relatively quick making him way too vulnerable to any form of aggression. Which would be smart against some zergs but not against July.
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On October 15 2011 13:07 Azarkon wrote:
Tyler was great in BW in no small part because he was able to practice on ICCUP against Korean A-/A/A+ players. I think being in NA really hamstrings him in this respect, as the NA ladder is pretty bad.
he does play on the korean server, but latency is really crippling.
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On October 15 2011 13:01 sharktopus. wrote:
Tyler just doesn't practice enough. He has strong builds, and he's a good player on ladder, but you can't go into a tournament and face guys that practice 40 hours a week and expect to win.
I don't want to sound like a hater, but his play on his stream is pretty low tier too. He commonly loses to people he really shouldn't be.
I don't think 1 base SG openers are very good at all. The most effective anti-third tactic without restricting yourself to one-basing seems to be Kiwikaki's double chrono zealot push, but that dies to Roaches as well.
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Aww.......JulyZerg is pretty awesome
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On October 15 2011 13:08 Terranist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 13:07 Azarkon wrote:
Tyler was great in BW in no small part because he was able to practice on ICCUP against Korean A-/A/A+ players. I think being in NA really hamstrings him in this respect, as the NA ladder is pretty bad.
he does play on the korean server, but latency is really crippling.
The worst part is, the last time I saw Tyler stream he was losing to Masters-level NA players. Granted, he was probably just trying new builds. But still, it was sad to watch especially when he turns off the stream after a string of losses 
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On October 15 2011 13:08 Resilient wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 13:01 sharktopus. wrote:
Tyler just doesn't practice enough. He has strong builds, and he's a good player on ladder, but you can't go into a tournament and face guys that practice 40 hours a week and expect to win. I don't want to sound like a hater, but his play on his stream is pretty low tier too. He commonly loses to people he really shouldn't be.
if you were averaging 3 games a day or lower against masters/gm you'd perform really really "low tier" too.
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On October 15 2011 13:10 Spessi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 13:08 Resilient wrote:On October 15 2011 13:01 sharktopus. wrote:
Tyler just doesn't practice enough. He has strong builds, and he's a good player on ladder, but you can't go into a tournament and face guys that practice 40 hours a week and expect to win. I don't want to sound like a hater, but his play on his stream is pretty low tier too. He commonly loses to people he really shouldn't be. if you were averaging 3 games a day or lower against masters/gm you'd perform really really "low tier" too.
Not wanting to speak for someone but I doubt Resilient is part of a pro gaming team nor is he competing in the biggest SC2 tournaments though [ apologies if you are  ]
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I guess I just expected him to come out of that RedBull LAN with some renewed passion for the game and really have a good showing at this MLG. I know he's not out of it yet, but he hasn't put himself into a very good position.
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This is pretty much textbook TvZ.
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Am I missing something or was that engagement really not all that great for IdrA? He came out ahead sure but Boxer microed well and was pretty cost efficient there, why was Artosis getting so excited?
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On October 15 2011 13:04 templar rage wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 13:01 babysimba wrote:On October 15 2011 12:55 templar rage wrote:
I think the point is to force the Zerg to play 2base for a while (at least, that's what Tyler said on SotG I believe). It just didn't really work out, I guess, though I'm not really sure what would be considered a success with the build. There's no point keeping zerg on 2 base if you don't get the third yourself. He should get a fast third, rely more on cannons for defence, then kick into production and tech once 3 bases are up. I hope you mean his natural. I wasn't really paying attention to his natural timing, but Tyler said that he's a lot more comfortable 2base vs 2base in PvZ, and he should be. Equal bases is generally advantageous to the toss, so why shouldn't he aim for that?
I'm zerg and i eat stargate expand for breakfast. The ideal response from zerg is either a fast third so he can spore up before the voidray arrives, or fast 2 base hydra bust before colo which will kill if toss doesn't cannon up. When tyler void ray cancel july's third at that timing, it should already hint him that july is not going for a 2 base bust, and tyler should expand immediately. Although it's 2 bases vs 2 bases, if july is not going for a 2 base aggression, it should mean that all his resources will be diverted into tech and upgrades, so a close food count at that point is actually quite misleading
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What is a "quick 3rd" to you in this scenario? You say to do it so you can build spores before the void rays come. I'll admit, I wasn't paying the greatest attention, so I missed the exact timing the void rays came out, but it feels like it would just be so risky to try to take that 3rd that early. Tbh, if I'm seeing a 1base play (even if it isn't SG), I'm expecting a lot heavier pressure than what Tyler put on almost always. If that's the case, good luck holding your 3rd against that.
There's absolutely no reason to respond to a 1base play with a quick 3rd, because having decent saturation on your 2 bases is enough. There was a very good post a while ago about this subject. I think it was by Sheth, actually. The gist was that there are multiple "levels" of saturation. Like, you progress from full 1base saturation -> decent 2base -> full 2base, etc. The idea was that you only need to be 1-2 levels beyond your opponent to do fine, and going further is just too risky. In this case, you seem to be recommending combating full 1base saturation (from Tyler's 1base play) with 3 bases, which is 3-4 levels above.
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who the heck is goswer and howd he take a game off Polt????
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How come if you click on HuKs link it brings you to KiWiKaKi in the Pool D Results?
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How come tyler is still on a team?
If he doesnt practice (like he says himself), then he apparently doesnt like playing sc2, or rather he doesnt like putting effort into sc2, why does a team put up with such behaviour?
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On October 15 2011 19:44 gh0un wrote:
How come tyler is still on a team?
If he doesnt practice (like he says himself), then he apparently doesnt like playing sc2, or rather he doesnt like putting effort into sc2, why does a team put up with such behaviour?
Eh, he hasn't had the motivation to practice that much for personal reasons (which he has said publicly though).
Great 'statements' by Nazgul about this:
Tyler has been playing more the last few days and it is showing in his game. I think a lot of you are aware of the difficult situation he finds himself in where he has a hard time motivating himself. We don't want to put any pressure on him however and want him to take his time to working things out.
About RedBull LAN which he attended:
For Tyler especially I think it was useful to surround him with his peers and maybe take a bit from their energy and apply it to his own game. Motivated people inspire others and surrounding yourself with them is always going to be useful. I'm not sure how much direct influence it had on Sheth and Ret.
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On October 15 2011 20:05 Grettin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 19:44 gh0un wrote:
How come tyler is still on a team?
If he doesnt practice (like he says himself), then he apparently doesnt like playing sc2, or rather he doesnt like putting effort into sc2, why does a team put up with such behaviour? Eh, he hasn't had the motivation to practice that much for personal reasons (which he has said publicly though). Great 'statements' by Nazgul about this: Show nested quote +Tyler has been playing more the last few days and it is showing in his game. I think a lot of you are aware of the difficult situation he finds himself in where he has a hard time motivating himself. We don't want to put any pressure on him however and want him to take his time to working things out. About RedBull LAN which he attended: Show nested quote +For Tyler especially I think it was useful to surround him with his peers and maybe take a bit from their energy and apply it to his own game. Motivated people inspire others and surrounding yourself with them is always going to be useful. I'm not sure how much direct influence it had on Sheth and Ret.
Exactly, he is completely unmotivated.
If i was a sponsoring such a player i wouldnt put up with such lazy behaviour, especially (like in tylers case) if that lazy behaviour goes on for about a whole year.
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EPT
