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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
Why is it that it's always the Zerg player who loses due to "poor engagements"? puma vs idra on shakuras. one misclick and 3 banelings. nestea vs virus on dual sight. byun vs zenio on terminus (the one where 12 ghosts die to banelings) there's not many counter examples, but it does happen. | ||
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Olinim
4044 Posts
On October 06 2011 01:30 sitromit wrote: "Nestea's worst matchup is his ZvT" "Losira lost because his ZvT sucks" "DRG is overrated, he's no good" "July is no good, his ZvT is bad, he could have won, but just engaged really badly in that game!" "Leenock's TvZ is overrated, he played poorly" "Zerg Player X lost to poor engagements, it's his fault, he lost too many Mutas that one time" Is there a Zerg who can consistently win against Code S Terrans anymore? All these players are just bad at ZvT, and all the Code S Terrans are just geniuses with overflowing talent? How many games have we seen lately where the Zerg with massive supply/worker advantage can't close the game? How many games have we seen where Terran doesn't kill a single Drone, but is ahead of Zerg in macro and can afford to keep throwing away armies until the Zerg can't keep up anymore? And how many games have we seen, where Terran had a 20 food supply advantage, and couldn't win the game? Why is it that it's always the Zerg player who loses due to "poor engagements"? Funny how most zergs say the exact same thing when no Protoss player can beat a good Code S zerg in GSL. | ||
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I)etox
1240 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On October 06 2011 04:37 Oboeman wrote: puma vs idra on shakuras. one misclick and 3 banelings. nestea vs virus on dual sight. byun vs zenio on terminus (the one where 12 ghosts die to banelings) there's not many counter examples, but it does happen. Or MMA vs Nestea on Terminus, MMA looks away for a second and some banelings erase his 60 marines from the face of the earth, even today Virus vs Nestea, Virus unsiege everything and get stomped instantly. Or Nada who doesn't split his thors and get baneling'ed (by Nestea again :D) Related is Ret vs Thorzain yesterday, thorzain makes a greedy 4 hellions expand (you park 4 hellions in front of the zerg natural so he is contained), but he looks away and his 4 hellions gets surrounded by lings and just has to gg because his greedy build can't handle 20 slings without those 4 hellions. A theory could be that with injects, Zergs are looking away from their army more often than terrans so it happens more often to them. But it's those kind of mistakes just kills everyone, whatever the race (imo) | ||
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khanofmongols
542 Posts
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Ikonn
Netherlands1958 Posts
On October 06 2011 00:46 Poopi wrote: I didn't follow BW but I heard someone not so long ago when LosirA won code A against SuperNova, who said that SuperNova was almost as, or as good as Mvp was on BW when he switched for SC2. Is that true? If so, explains why he is posting good results now. in his early KTF days he had some games that made you think 'hmm maybe this guy is going to be decent' but then the next game was ridiculously bad. Then KT traded him to Woongjin where I think he only played one official game (and lost). MVP was better | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On October 06 2011 04:00 Crushinator wrote: I don't really understand why people are saying Supernova figured out DRG. Game 1 was extremely 1-sided untill DRG for some reason suicided his ultras twice because he clearly thought he had won the game and nothing could hurt him. Game 2 was just amazing and DRG was (slightly) more careful with ultras this time. It should have been 2-0. A silly mistake in game 3 with the helions getting made it 1-2 instead. Supernova's builds were all extremely standard, I can believe Bomber may have figured out DRG, Supernova did not, he did however show extremely solid play against, IMO, the best ZvT player in the world by quite a large margin. In fact I dont think Supernova made an obvious mistake that whole series, and DRG still effectively managed to win 2 games. Despite DRG losing, for me these games showed how good he is, not how overrated. Nestea however was quite lucky to beat Virus, though brilliant in the other matchups, his ZvT has never seemed that good to me and today was no exception. Though I have to say Game 3 was very cleverly salvaged. Playing well and losing happens all the time. In the end you play well to win not to look good and lose. If you make mistakes then you didnt do your job. Wether its because terran is op or the metagaming went on if you cannot beat solid players while looking awesome you clearly did not deserve to win. There are very rare cases where a player deserved to win and got "unlucky" I dont recall DRG ever losing because he got unlucky. And yeah having DRG figured out would suggest being able to get ahead in games against him which I dont think SuperNova managed to do. MKP did though, and so has MVP on some (some mind you) big stages. | ||
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Clank
United States548 Posts
On October 06 2011 04:29 darkest44 wrote: Good games but kinda sad even the best zerg in the world very nearly loses to like the 10-15th best terran.. and the rest of the zergs lose including the 2nd best zerg, and best ZvTer, to another mid tier terran. You never see like the 10-15th best zerg in the world beating mvp and bomber in best of 3s, yet its somehow fine for terrans to do that... So many terrans in the top 8 is just sad... Either this game really isn't balanced or korean terrans are just so much better than the zergs/protosses which I kinda doubt... or nestea losing just one game in a bo3 can be considered an upset? In pretty much every sport, the best team/player loses to lesser players. Being the best, or one of the best just requires getting upset less than others. And this was just a single game, not the entire series, so even more likely for an upset to occur. This is why we have bo3s | ||
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Robonord
United States311 Posts
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On October 06 2011 05:15 Rebs wrote: Playing well and losing happens all the time. In the end you play well to win not to look good and lose. If you make mistakes then you didnt do your job. Wether its because terran is op or the metagaming went on if you cannot beat solid players while looking awesome you clearly did not deserve to win. There are very rare cases where a player deserved to win and got "unlucky" I dont recall DRG ever losing because he got unlucky. And yeah having DRG figured out would suggest being able to get ahead in games against him which I dont think SuperNova managed to do. MKP did though, and so has MVP on some (some mind you) big stages. Exactly, hell same thing happened in BW all the time. One mistake could cost you the game. Both BW and SC2 are pretty explosive when it comes to winning and losing (IIRC 70% winrate is considered absolutely amazing and dominant in that MU and yet they still lose 30% of their games). BW was never really balanced in the way that many of the people complaining about Balance want SC2 to be balanced, some Mus were harder for one race but in the end what mattered is that all races could edge out a win. Luck does exists and will always exist in both BW and SC2. As I said in my previous post, yeah Terrans won but if you actually watch the games they could have easily gone the other way any other day. And its not like BW was born balanced, map balance, strategy innovations(anybody remembers how Z was before Savior revolutionized.. well everything? ) are things that are in constant shift. IIRC there was a time in BW were ZvT was like at 30% and players innovated and everything was fine. Gosh sorry for the rant but I really find it frustrating how some people look at results(not even the games) and scream OP this OP that based on a few results. | ||
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Crushinator
Netherlands2138 Posts
On October 06 2011 05:15 Rebs wrote: Playing well and losing happens all the time. In the end you play well to win not to look good and lose. If you make mistakes then you didnt do your job. Wether its because terran is op or the metagaming went on if you cannot beat solid players while looking awesome you clearly did not deserve to win. There are very rare cases where a player deserved to win and got "unlucky" I dont recall DRG ever losing because he got unlucky. And yeah having DRG figured out would suggest being able to get ahead in games against him which I dont think SuperNova managed to do. MKP did though, and so has MVP on some (some mind you) big stages. Agree completely Supernova deserved to win today luck played no part in it, and there are terrans I would consider favored over DRG: Bomber, MVP and MKP come to mind immediately. I do not think its fair to immediately jump to the conclusion that DRG is overrated and only wins because he plays some bad style that people just haven't 'figured out' yet. I may be biased towards him though, I could watch DRG fly his mutas around all day, just beautiful  | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
On October 06 2011 05:26 Robonord wrote: The Nestea games are almost unwatchable. Tastosis are talking about the game less than 20% of the time. -_- Well according to artosis nestea might as well be our champion haha. Guess he forgot he's playing mvp next round. gg | ||
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zyzq
United States3123 Posts
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On October 06 2011 01:30 sitromit wrote: "Nestea's worst matchup is his ZvT" It is. "Losira lost because his ZvT sucks" It does. "DRG is overrated, he's no good" He is a little bit overrated, but he is one of the best ZvTers around. "July is no good, his ZvT is bad, he could have won, but just engaged really badly in that game!" July's tendency to randomly flip the all-in switch does in fact lead him to engage really badly sometimes because of over-aggression. "Leenock's TvZ is overrated, he played poorly" His run of bad luck has prevented him from getting into Code S until now, so we haven't seen how he is against the best of the best Terrans. It could very well be that his abilities were overestimated. "Zerg Player X lost to poor engagements, it's his fault, he lost too many Mutas that one time" Engaging badly and losing a bunch of expensive units shouldn't have negative consequences? Is there a Zerg who can consistently win against Code S Terrans anymore? All these players are just bad at ZvT, and all the Code S Terrans are just geniuses with overflowing talent So far, only Nestea. Mvp kills him every time but he does well against other Terrans. Is it so hard to believe that Terran is the race with the highest number of talented players in Korea? Think about BW's legacy. At any given time, a Terran player has usually been the dominant force. Boxer, iloveoov, Nada, Flash; these are the guys that most of the current crop of progamers came up either watching or aspiring to be like. A couple of those amazing minds (Boxer, Nada) have come over to SC2 while no BW Protoss legends and only one Zerg great (July) have made the switch. SC2, just like BW, will probably have periods in time, even lengthy periods, where one race is just a lot more successful at the very top than others. Jangbi's recent victory over Fantasy in BW was the first time a Protoss had won a Starleague in ages. It's part of the game, and good players respond by working hard and innovating instead of whining and demanding patches. How many games have we seen lately where the Zerg with massive supply/worker advantage can't close the game? Plenty. A supply lead doesn't mean as much for Zerg as it does for other races. That's the nature of the race. How many games have we seen where Terran doesn't kill a single Drone, but is ahead of Zerg in macro and can afford to keep throwing away armies until the Zerg can't keep up anymore? None. Against Zerg, both Terran and Protoss have to be aggressive and force Zerg to respond with units, otherwise Zerg macro gets totally out of control and they eventually just run over you with wave after wave of instant remaxes. I've read this sentence like 4 times and I swear you accidentally put Zerg where Terran should be and Terran where Zerg should be. And how many games have we seen, where Terran had a 20 food supply advantage, and couldn't win the game? I dunno, it happens occasionally but not that much. Terran units tend to be more cost-efficient than Zerg ones so a supply advantage is pretty meaningful. Kinda makes sense that the race that produces things at the slowest rate has a good chance of coming out even with lower supply. Why is it that it's always the Zerg player who loses due to "poor engagements" Do you even watch TvZ? How many times have we seen Terran move out onto the map, try to push, and get run over by a Zerg army and never recover and just slowly lose? Don't you remember the Nestea vs MMA game in this very tournament where after MMA won an engagement convincingly, Nestea immediately had another force out and MMA completely messed up his control and lost his army? That mistake ended up costing him the game. | ||
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KanoCoke
Japan863 Posts
On October 06 2011 05:46 zyzq wrote: Bomber looked like he gave up before even playing the games. Gave in to nervousness and anxiety by the looks of it. He mentioned in his ro32 winner's interview how much he was scared of playing against Mvp, and it definitely showed in his games. | ||
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Olinim
4044 Posts
On October 06 2011 05:48 forsooth wrote: So far, only Nestea. Mvp kills him every time but he does well against other Terrans. Is it so hard to believe that Terran is the race with the highest number of talented players in Korea? Think about BW's legacy. At any given time, a Terran player has usually been the dominant force. Boxer, iloveoov, Nada, Flash; these are the guys that most of the current crop of progamers came up either watching or aspiring to be like. A couple of those amazing minds (Boxer, Nada) have come over to SC2 while no BW Protoss legends and only one Zerg great (July) have made the switch. SC2, just like BW, will probably have periods in time, even lengthy periods, where one race is just a lot more successful at the very top than others. Jangbi's recent victory over Fantasy in BW was the first time a Protoss had won a Starleague in ages. It's part of the game, and good players respond by working hard and innovating instead of whining and demanding patches. They don't just have a slightly higher number of good players. Not 1 Protoss player is favored against a top terran or zerg player, they are barely even competitive in BO series. That can't be a coincidence, it's simply too extreme to be. How do you explain to me that not 1 person talented enough to be competitive in Code S chose protoss? Also, why has the number of terrans gradually gone up if they were just naturally more talented from the beginning? OH WAIT PROTOSS GOT NERFED. Your BW comparison isn't appropriate. Let me explain. For one, BW was not completely balanced. Two, There were still Protoss and Zergs in the finals. They were competitive at the highest level. This is not the case here. 1 Protoss in the ro16, dominated by zergs and terrans. Zerg is just one level up on the food chain, behind terran. This isn't a terran player being a dominant force, it's the terran race as a whole. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On October 06 2011 04:29 darkest44 wrote: Good games but kinda sad even the best zerg in the world very nearly loses to like the 10-15th best terran.. and the rest of the zergs lose including the 2nd best zerg, and best ZvTer, to another mid tier terran. You never see like the 10-15th best zerg in the world beating mvp and bomber in best of 3s, yet its somehow fine for terrans to do that... So many terrans in the top 8 is just sad... Either this game really isn't balanced or korean terrans are just so much better than the zergs/protosses which I kinda doubt... After Idra vs Puma, it is very difficult to take Zerg's complaints seriously. | ||
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Bonhead
Australia9 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On October 06 2011 06:19 Bonhead wrote: After one game - Idra Vs Puma? pffffffft.... There have been so many examples brought up on this page of the thread alone that prove with fact a serious imbalance at the highest level. Zerg & Protoss will be getting a major facelift in HotS imo, until then we'll be well accustomed with the TvT matchup. wat Seriously, I'm all with my brotoss brethren (I've never played protoss but I have empathy :D) and I think they would need an unilateral buff. But zergs ? They destroy protoss at least as much as terran do, and they win against terran as much as terran are winning against them. I'd really like to know which facts you're talking about. Zerg whine is as indecent as terran whine. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On October 06 2011 05:59 Olinim wrote: They don't just have a slightly higher number of good players. Not 1 Protoss player is favored against a top terran or zerg player, they are barely even competitive in BO series. That can't be a coincidence, it's simply too extreme to be. How do you explain to me that not 1 person talented enough to be competitive in Code S chose protoss? Also, why has the number of terrans gradually gone up if they were just naturally more talented from the beginning? OH WAIT PROTOSS GOT NERFED. Your BW comparison isn't appropriate. Let me explain. For one, BW was not completely balanced. Two, There were still Protoss and Zergs in the finals. They were competitive at the highest level. This is not the case here. 1 Protoss in the ro16, dominated by zergs and terrans. Zerg is just one level up on the food chain, behind terran. This isn't a terran player being a dominant force, it's the terran race as a whole. Actually, what we're seeing is a slightly higher number of the best players playing Terran. Certainly enough to make Code S very Terran-heavy, but look at Code A and the team leagues. Terran isn't dominating at all. There is basically a small group of ridiculously high-caliber (relatively speaking; SC2 is still young and underdeveloped compared to its predecessor) Terrans that are killing everyone and apart from them, we're not seeing much dominance by one race or another anywhere. As far as Protoss is concerned, I think we're currently in the middle of a big shift in terms of how the race is played that's actually being played out down in Code A, with the old guard in Code S that tried sticking to styles that got figured out quickly dropping like flies. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a resurgence start to happen within the next couple of GSLs. And as to your BW point, I will definitely grant you that. I didn't think about it as much as I should have. | ||
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