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On October 06 2011 06:19 Bonhead wrote:
After one game - Idra Vs Puma? pffffffft.... There have been so many examples brought up on this page of the thread alone that prove with fact a serious imbalance at the highest level. Zerg & Protoss will be getting a major facelift in HotS imo, until then we'll be well accustomed with the TvT matchup.
Which is why protosses crushing face in the business end of team league is completely irrelevant. Protoss just sucks doesnt it. Or the fact that Euro and NA tosses seem to be doing fine. Sure its not Korea but their highest level of play is just very terrancentric right now for reasons already discussed over and over again.
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On October 06 2011 06:26 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 05:59 Olinim wrote:On October 06 2011 05:48 forsooth wrote:On October 06 2011 01:30 sitromit wrote:Is there a Zerg who can consistently win against Code S Terrans anymore? All these players are just bad at ZvT, and all the Code S Terrans are just geniuses with overflowing talent So far, only Nestea. Mvp kills him every time but he does well against other Terrans. Is it so hard to believe that Terran is the race with the highest number of talented players in Korea? Think about BW's legacy. At any given time, a Terran player has usually been the dominant force. Boxer, iloveoov, Nada, Flash; these are the guys that most of the current crop of progamers came up either watching or aspiring to be like. A couple of those amazing minds (Boxer, Nada) have come over to SC2 while no BW Protoss legends and only one Zerg great (July) have made the switch. SC2, just like BW, will probably have periods in time, even lengthy periods, where one race is just a lot more successful at the very top than others. Jangbi's recent victory over Fantasy in BW was the first time a Protoss had won a Starleague in ages. It's part of the game, and good players respond by working hard and innovating instead of whining and demanding patches. They don't just have a slightly higher number of good players. Not 1 Protoss player is favored against a top terran or zerg player, they are barely even competitive in BO series. That can't be a coincidence, it's simply too extreme to be. How do you explain to me that not 1 person talented enough to be competitive in Code S chose protoss? Also, why has the number of terrans gradually gone up if they were just naturally more talented from the beginning? OH WAIT PROTOSS GOT NERFED. Your BW comparison isn't appropriate. Let me explain. For one, BW was not completely balanced. Two, There were still Protoss and Zergs in the finals. They were competitive at the highest level. This is not the case here. 1 Protoss in the ro16, dominated by zergs and terrans. Zerg is just one level up on the food chain, behind terran. This isn't a terran player being a dominant force, it's the terran race as a whole. Actually, what we're seeing is a slightly higher number of the best players playing Terran. Certainly enough to make Code S very Terran-heavy, but look at Code A and the team leagues. Terran isn't dominating at all. There is basically a small group of ridiculously high-caliber (relatively speaking; SC2 is still young and underdeveloped compared to its predecessor) Terrans that are killing everyone and apart from them, we're not seeing much dominance by one race or another anywhere. As far as Protoss is concerned, I think we're currently in the middle of a big shift in terms of how the race is played that's actually being played out down in Code A, with the old guard in Code S that tried sticking to styles that got figured out quickly dropping like flies. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a resurgence start to happen within the next couple of GSLs. And as to your BW point, I will definitely grant you that. I didn't think about it as much as I should have.
Addressing your second paragraph, yeah, sure, the Code A protoss played a bit different. Maybe they have a new style. But they still get owned just as hard when they face the Code S players. Hell, watch Hero vs Losira. Watch JYP get raped by foreigners in IEM.
Also Protoss had a week where they did well in teamleague, but would you actually favor Genius or Tails to beat a Code S player in a BO series? Will this trend even continue?
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On October 06 2011 06:27 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 06:19 Bonhead wrote:
After one game - Idra Vs Puma? pffffffft.... There have been so many examples brought up on this page of the thread alone that prove with fact a serious imbalance at the highest level. Zerg & Protoss will be getting a major facelift in HotS imo, until then we'll be well accustomed with the TvT matchup. Which is why protosses crushing face in the business end of team league is completely irrelevant. Protoss just sucks doesnt it. Or the fact that Euro and NA tosses seem to be doing fine. Sure its not Korea but their highest level of play is just very terrancentric right now for reasons already discussed over and over again.
Agreed. NA tosses and zergs are actually doing quite well comparatively to NA terrans.
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On October 06 2011 06:34 YoiChiBow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 06:27 Rebs wrote:On October 06 2011 06:19 Bonhead wrote:
After one game - Idra Vs Puma? pffffffft.... There have been so many examples brought up on this page of the thread alone that prove with fact a serious imbalance at the highest level. Zerg & Protoss will be getting a major facelift in HotS imo, until then we'll be well accustomed with the TvT matchup. Which is why protosses crushing face in the business end of team league is completely irrelevant. Protoss just sucks doesnt it. Or the fact that Euro and NA tosses seem to be doing fine. Sure its not Korea but their highest level of play is just very terrancentric right now for reasons already discussed over and over again. Agreed. NA tosses and zergs are actually doing quite well comparatively to NA terrans.
Which is a moot point. If i told you that in plat league Zerg was completely overpowered, would you care? No. Only the highest level of play matters.
Of course this is a pretty extreme example, i'm not really saying NA is like plat league compared to KR - but the point still stands...
There is practically no Protoss in the world i'd be betting on against ANY code S Terran in a Bo5.
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A theory could be that with injects, Zergs are looking away from their army more often than terrans so it happens more often to them. But it's those kind of mistakes just kills everyone, whatever the race (imo)
no I don't buy that.
these bad engagements that lose the zerg game are never like that.
they are intentional attacks where the zerg is in control of the army, but usually it's caused by a bad location.
Usually it's either off creep, in a choke, approaching the army from a bad angle, or siege tanks create a choke keeping banelings away from marines, or something like that.
or all of the above.
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On October 06 2011 06:49 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +A theory could be that with injects, Zergs are looking away from their army more often than terrans so it happens more often to them. But it's those kind of mistakes just kills everyone, whatever the race (imo) no I don't buy that. these bad engagements that lose the zerg game are never like that. they are intentional attacks where the zerg is in control of the army, but usually it's caused by a bad location. Usually it's either off creep, in a choke, approaching the army from a bad angle, or siege tanks create a choke keeping banelings away from marines, or something like that. or all of the above.
yeah that's true. I just wrote the first thing that crossed my mind =)
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it will be funny to watch the race win stats for the september/october period when they get out :D
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On October 06 2011 06:58 MyNameIsAlex wrote:
it will be funny to watch the race win stats for the september/october period when they get out :D
No, because when they'll show ZvT 55% Z favored, ZvP 70% Z favored, and TvP 65% T favored, people will say that the stats are meaning nothing. They'll only mean something if T is 80% favored in all matchups.
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Leenock and Dongraegu were a couple bad decisions away from making the top 8 4 T and 4 Z, but people completely ignore that and choose to cry. It's sad.
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o man
i was hoping all the zergs got through......
i am actually pretty surprised about the results.
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Did anyone else notice that Nestea beat a mech army using primarily banelings? I guess Blizzard will need to adjust their counter chart.
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Tbh I still believe that ZvT is very balanced, you can even argue it favours Zerg sightly (stats back this up as well).
Especially look at foreign ZvT, Zerg has quite an advantage in that matchup.
Anyways DRG was so disappointing, ultimate choker in individual leagues.
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On October 06 2011 07:19 TurtlePerson2 wrote:
Did anyone else notice that Nestea beat a mech army using primarily banelings? I guess Blizzard will need to adjust their counter chart.
You should check the Nestea vs Nada game.....He made almost pure banes against pure mech
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United Kingdom3249 Posts
Just watched the VODs.
And that was amazing. Some surprising results. But so much awesomeness. Just a joy to see that kind of play.
Mind equals blown.
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:O DRG? why you no win~ its k i love you still
otherwise 3/3 -.- no MVP/Bomber upset here... move on...
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On October 06 2011 04:41 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 01:30 sitromit wrote:
"Nestea's worst matchup is his ZvT"
"Losira lost because his ZvT sucks"
"DRG is overrated, he's no good"
"July is no good, his ZvT is bad, he could have won, but just engaged really badly in that game!"
"Leenock's TvZ is overrated, he played poorly"
"Zerg Player X lost to poor engagements, it's his fault, he lost too many Mutas that one time"
Is there a Zerg who can consistently win against Code S Terrans anymore? All these players are just bad at ZvT, and all the Code S Terrans are just geniuses with overflowing talent?
How many games have we seen lately where the Zerg with massive supply/worker advantage can't close the game?
How many games have we seen where Terran doesn't kill a single Drone, but is ahead of Zerg in macro and can afford to keep throwing away armies until the Zerg can't keep up anymore?
And how many games have we seen, where Terran had a 20 food supply advantage, and couldn't win the game?
Why is it that it's always the Zerg player who loses due to "poor engagements"?
Funny how most zergs say the exact same thing when no Protoss player can beat a good Code S zerg in GSL.
i dont remember anyone saying that
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Those were some sick ass games man holy shit! Those TvZs were amazing!
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On October 06 2011 06:58 MyNameIsAlex wrote:
it will be funny to watch the race win stats for the september/october period when they get out :D
GSL wise ZvT is balanced as hell. And that is including this latest games bro. PvAnything is a mess though at least in Code S. Team leagues stats are pretty balanced
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On October 06 2011 07:19 TurtlePerson2 wrote:
Did anyone else notice that Nestea beat a mech army using primarily banelings? I guess Blizzard will need to adjust their counter chart.
FruitDealer did that first :D
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United States11076 Posts
On October 06 2011 07:02 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 06:58 MyNameIsAlex wrote:
it will be funny to watch the race win stats for the september/october period when they get out :D No, because when they'll show ZvT 55% Z favored, ZvP 70% Z favored, and TvP 65% T favored, people will say that the stats are meaning nothing. They'll only mean something if T is 80% favored in all matchups.
You know.... the stats will mean nothing. We're approaching a point where there aren't enough Ps to matter. Huk's few wins will save the stats.
On October 06 2011 07:48 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 04:41 Olinim wrote:On October 06 2011 01:30 sitromit wrote:
"Nestea's worst matchup is his ZvT"
"Losira lost because his ZvT sucks"
"DRG is overrated, he's no good"
"July is no good, his ZvT is bad, he could have won, but just engaged really badly in that game!"
"Leenock's TvZ is overrated, he played poorly"
"Zerg Player X lost to poor engagements, it's his fault, he lost too many Mutas that one time"
Is there a Zerg who can consistently win against Code S Terrans anymore? All these players are just bad at ZvT, and all the Code S Terrans are just geniuses with overflowing talent?
How many games have we seen lately where the Zerg with massive supply/worker advantage can't close the game?
How many games have we seen where Terran doesn't kill a single Drone, but is ahead of Zerg in macro and can afford to keep throwing away armies until the Zerg can't keep up anymore?
And how many games have we seen, where Terran had a 20 food supply advantage, and couldn't win the game?
Why is it that it's always the Zerg player who loses due to "poor engagements"?
Funny how most zergs say the exact same thing when no Protoss player can beat a good Code S zerg in GSL. i dont remember anyone saying that
There were a few posts in the last 10 pages where if you replace zerg with protoss you'd be replicating a few hundred posts and responses.
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EPT
