On October 06 2011 02:17 KanoCoke wrote: DongRaeGu has been figured out since Raleigh by Bomber apparently. When NaDa complained about being the only Korean Terran that lost to DongRaeGu, Bomber replied with something akin to "I'll tell you how to beat him" and proceeded to telling NaDa DongRaeGu's tactics.
As of late, it's been fairly obvious that DongRaeGu goes for really fast muta to quickly punish any attempts at dropping, to harass mineral lines, and to take out straggling tanks or marines, with his mass mutas being supported primarily by mass speedlings due to lack of gas. He responds to Terran fast expands by either getting one or two of his own, and pumps more resources into mutas due to its one-shot efficiency when there are a high number of them. When he sees mass marine or thor to counter his mutas, he goes straight to infestors and attempts to draw the enemy's marines away by picking off tanks at the edges, then he fungals with his infestors and surrounds with both lings and muta. When it reaches the late game and the Terran is upgraded to 3-3, and it gets harder to harass their expos or main, he usually switches to hive-tech (brood + ultra) due to their durability and the brood's range. This is where he ends up losing a lot (I've seen several occasions, like in his MLG run, the Valencia invitational and recent GSTLs), because he can't get a perfect balance between his primary attacking units (sometimes massing too much ultra and brood) when his main army composition from mid-game gets defeated. If his and the enemy's lategame armies haven't clashed yet, the Terran can take advantage of DongRaeGu's slow units and low muta numbers, and either drops at multiple hatchery spots or takes down tech structures, packs up, leaves and regroups with the main army before facing DongRaeGu's army. When DongRaeGu starts struggling due to lack of resources and the enemy's greatly defended expands or main/natural, he GGs.
Basically, the Terran player just has to keep a compact and well-defended position with quite a few turrets and bunkers, and has to take down DongRaeGu's mutas in the mid-game to almost guarantee themselves a win against him. People have also tried to cheese him a lot due to his fast-tracking to mass muta via early game 11-11 rax, but since he's gotten used to defending bunker rushes with just a few lings and drones, they've gone to early reactor hellion openings instead.
I think I've been watching too much of the Dong's games recently.
Wow, great analysis! And I tend to agree with much of it
IMO, he tried too hard to make ultras work in game 3...
The muta/ling/bling was keeping Supernova pinned back and letting DRG take out isolated tanks... But he had to go and make the one zerg unit that ruins the advantage of high-speed zerg units, is easily killed without terran altering their unit comp, and is super expensive.
Broodlord+bling+ling is a lot harder to kill than ling+ultra+1/2 a muta flock
On October 06 2011 02:17 KanoCoke wrote: DongRaeGu has been figured out since Raleigh by Bomber apparently. When NaDa complained about being the only Korean Terran that lost to DongRaeGu, Bomber replied with something akin to "I'll tell you how to beat him" and proceeded to telling NaDa DongRaeGu's tactics.
As of late, it's been fairly obvious that DongRaeGu goes for really fast muta to quickly punish any attempts at dropping, to harass mineral lines, and to take out straggling tanks or marines, with his mass mutas being supported primarily by mass speedlings due to lack of gas. He responds to Terran fast expands by either getting one or two of his own, and pumps more resources into mutas due to its one-shot efficiency when there are a high number of them. When he sees mass marine or thor to counter his mutas, he goes straight to infestors and attempts to draw the enemy's marines away by picking off tanks at the edges, then he fungals with his infestors and surrounds with both lings and muta. When it reaches the late game and the Terran is upgraded to 3-3, and it gets harder to harass their expos or main, he usually switches to hive-tech (brood + ultra) due to their durability and the brood's range. This is where he ends up losing a lot (I've seen several occasions, like in his MLG run, the Valencia invitational and recent GSTLs), because he can't get a perfect balance between his primary attacking units (sometimes massing too much ultra and brood) when his main army composition from mid-game gets defeated. If his and the enemy's lategame armies haven't clashed yet, the Terran can take advantage of DongRaeGu's slow units and low muta numbers, and either drops at multiple hatchery spots or takes down tech structures, packs up, leaves and regroups with the main army before facing DongRaeGu's army. When DongRaeGu starts struggling due to lack of resources and the enemy's greatly defended expands or main/natural, he GGs.
Basically, the Terran player just has to keep a compact and well-defended position with quite a few turrets and bunkers, and has to take down DongRaeGu's mutas in the mid-game to almost guarantee themselves a win against him. People have also tried to cheese him a lot due to his fast-tracking to mass muta via early game 11-11 rax, but since he's gotten used to defending bunker rushes with just a few lings and drones, they've gone to early reactor hellion openings instead.
I think I've been watching too much of the Dong's games recently.
Wow, great analysis! And I tend to agree with much of it
yes but it is not neccessarily an efficient way to play against that style. Otherwise he wouldnt be Godly in team league. Its more because of his failings in the late game rather than people abilities at figuring him out. If your banking on coming back from behind in the late game its just not smart. Supernova deserved to win for being solid. But DongRaeGu was in positions you would expected to win from. A Nestea would not lose there. Not even a losira even though his early/midgame is trash.
Everyone knows what he does it been painfully obvious for a while. MMA even beat him somewhere with a nice tank marine timing (that doesnt really work anymore) somewhere.
ppl would try to hit him when they knew fast mutas were on the way. Not 11-11 thats kinda useless, more like timed marine hellion around 6-7 mins w
I like the MKP method of really massing hellions like theres no tomorow which means roaches are either forced or you just straight up lose (and you cant just get 5-6 because that many hellions will run by anything and at the least roast your entire line by the time they die) and then what your gona break a bunkered terran nat with roaches and lings with no economy ?
in large enough numbers invested into roaches delay muta play long enough for terran infrastructure to be alott more solid. Making it alot easier to take some map presence with maybe even a second expand up.
I like that style more would like to see how it works out. Outside of the AOL.
A theory could be that with injects, Zergs are looking away from their army more often than terrans so it happens more often to them. But it's those kind of mistakes just kills everyone, whatever the race (imo)
no I don't buy that.
these bad engagements that lose the zerg game are never like that.
they are intentional attacks where the zerg is in control of the army, but usually it's caused by a bad location.
Usually it's either off creep, in a choke, approaching the army from a bad angle, or siege tanks create a choke keeping banelings away from marines, or something like that.
or all of the above.
yeah that's true. I just wrote the first thing that crossed my mind =)
I think the best Zerg players will continue to make "bad engagements". Zerg has the worst ability to scout army movement/position and the most fragile shortest-range army. They have to take educated risks, and can't always honor the idea that their Terran opponent cut no corners in defense. Nestea took an educated risk attacking into Virus's 200/200 mech army on Dual Sight. If Virus was playing slow and safe, Nestea would have been called out for a "bad engagement." But Virus had the slowest army in the game, so he cut corners trying to move it too fast (no sieged tanks), and he got obliterated.
tl-dr: the best Zerg players will always look stupid sometimes.
Another thing is that the ling/bling portion of zerg army is basically un-microable unlike the marines. There are sooo many engagements where the zerg would win against 99.999% of terran players but because these terrans are so good they can micro their marines to take hardly any damage from the banes and there tanks are in such good positions also.
That's the way it seems to me at least. Banes seem to be getting worse and worse in the MU.
If you don't attack into a choke, then there certainly is a near infinite amount of micro zergs can do to minimise splash damage from tanks. it's not marine micro, but it still is micro. not terran's problem if zergs refuse to do that. the micro requirements are so much lower in sc2, 200 apm is nothing.
Just finished watching the games today, and TvZ has got to be the most entertaining matchup in SC2 :o There's always constant harass, by drops or mutas. There's always looming timing pushes with tanks/bio/hellions etc. It's very micro/position dependent, very volatile engagements that can quickly end horrible for either player. TvP & ZvP isn't nearly as dynamic with these constant up & down swings of momentum.
Considering I'm on my phone, ill be blunt, people keep saying that Terran has the most efficient army, but aren't the races designed so that Protons has the most cost efficient units?
DongRaeGu is the Sea[Shield] of StarCraft II . At least he didn't get himself knocked down into the Up-and-Downs, after all the trouble GSL went through to actually get him into Code S .
On October 06 2011 05:48 forsooth wrote: Is it so hard to believe that Terran is the race with the highest number of talented players in Korea?
Frankly, yes. Think about it. If you're one of those countless coincidentally incredibly talented Terran geniuses, you might as well switch to Protoss. Sure it'll take a while to get used to the race, but you'll instantly become the best Protoss in the world, meaning you'll be invited to every special event and tournament, and it might even improve your chances at winning the main GSL since all of the other incredibly talented Terran geniuses won't have any decent Protoss training partners because every other Protoss is an incompetent or a moron. And they'll be more busy practicing vs. Terran.
The smartest thing a top Terran (except MVP, who is obviously already getting all the quirks of being the best player of his given race) could do right now is switch races to Protoss... assuming that the game is in fact balanced and that they're a top Terran due to their skill and not simply because Terran is overpowered.
On October 06 2011 13:41 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Dongraegu is the Sea[Shield] of StarCraft II . At least he didn't get himself knocked down into the Up-and-Downs, after all the trouble GSL went through to actually get him into Code S .
On October 06 2011 05:48 forsooth wrote: Is it so hard to believe that Terran is the race with the highest number of talented players in Korea?
Frankly, yes. Think about it. If you're one of those countless coincidentally incredibly talented Terran geniuses, you might as well switch to Protoss. Sure it'll take a while to get used to the race, but you'll instantly become the best Protoss in the world, meaning you'll be invited to every special event and tournament, and it might even improve your chances at winning the main GSL since all of the other incredibly talented Terran geniuses won't have any decent Protoss training partners because every other Protoss is an incompetent or a moron. And they'll be more busy practicing vs. Terran.
The smartest thing a top Terran (except MVP, who is obviously already getting all the quirks of being the best player of his given race) could do right now is switch races to Protoss... assuming that the game is in fact balanced and that they're a top Terran due to their skill and not simply because Terran is overpowered.
Really? It would take months and months to learn to play a different race at a Code S standard. Why would anyone be willing to get demoted to Code B so that they could play a different race which hasn't been figured out well at all and which may well not fit their style?
That's just about the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard.
So sad to see DRG throw away a won game in game 1. And no don't listen to bomber, DRG hasn't been figured out. People say that kind of thing all the time as showmanship and you see it in interviews all the time saying I've figured out their play. Then after the games, they say in the interview I was just lying for intimidation. I recall Top saying that about nestea I believe, saying that he found nestea's weakness and then saying after he was just lying about that.
Last MLG was a while ago and DRG's been winning still since then. He threw away game 1 and it's as simple as that. He wins that game and he moves on and is in the round of 8. He's still the ZvT bonjwa and this was just a minor setback for him. However, I knew when he lost the haters would be coming out of the woodwork to call him overrated. Haters going to hate!
On October 06 2011 14:18 blade55555 wrote: what the hell is with nestea and killing mech with banelings lol defies all logic :s.
He's just showing that with enough Banelings you can kill anything on the ground. :D
Banelings are extremely supply efficient. I mean 2 of them only cost 1 supply and can blow up 10 marines. 50 banelings is only 25 freakin supply. If you're at 200/200 like Nestea was and want to increase the supply efficiency of your army, just morph banes :o
On October 06 2011 07:19 TurtlePerson2 wrote: Did anyone else notice that Nestea beat a mech army using primarily banelings? I guess Blizzard will need to adjust their counter chart.
When Terran can't manage to hit the "E" button on their siege tanks, sure, banelings do fine.
Agreed. Nestea beat mech with banelings because Virus was unsieged at the time. That battle would have looked completely different if he was sieged. Then again, nestea probably wouldn't have attacked into a siege position so the game would have turned out differently.
If happy beats coca then clide could make it to the final ONLY playing TvT, with the amount of practice he would have I would imagine if he is only verse terrans he has a very good chance.
If happy beats coca then clide could make it to the final ONLY playing TvT, with the amount of practice he would have I would imagine if he is only verse terrans he has a very good chance.
I think Happy and Clide are actually the favourites for the semi finals, given their recent records.
Regardless, I'm happy with actually the entire Ro8, though I bet some people are whining that Nestea v MVP is "so early" (Ro8....ok...), a good finals doesn't exist in GSL, so I wouldn't want them to meet there =P
If happy beats coca then clide could make it to the final ONLY playing TvT, with the amount of practice he would have I would imagine if he is only verse terrans he has a very good chance.
I think Happy and Clide are actually the favourites for the semi finals, given their recent records.
Regardless, I'm happy with actually the entire Ro8, though I bet some people are whining that Nestea v MVP is "so early" (Ro8....ok...), a good finals doesn't exist in GSL, so I wouldn't want them to meet there =P
Given the way Nestea plays ZvT atm, I don't think this round will be really exciting. I expect a chirurgical dismantle by MVP. That... or Nestea work on a ZvT build since last GSL and didn't want to show it today, and he'll eat MVP aLive (pun intended). I do not believe in the second assertion though. MVP v Nestea will not be too early if it's a disaster.
EPT
. At least he didn't get himself knocked down into the Up-and-Downs, after all the trouble GSL went through to actually get him into Code S 
