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On October 02 2011 16:08 Jehct wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 16:04 iamke55 wrote:On October 02 2011 16:02 Maghetti wrote:
I didn't think Jim played THAT bad that game. He was getting the right units, he was expanding the right way, he just didn't have macro as good as idra did, made some control mistakes, and worse of all for me, he didn't build enough cannons. Watching huk play that style you see lots of cannons and always has troops ready to stand the ground with cannons, units, and forcefields cutting up the attacking armies.He had the right idea. Huk has a much better understanding of PvZ (or maybe he just uses better builds) so he finds a way to get enough econ to support mass cannons. I think he just builds more sentries in the midgame (which frees up minerals for cannons).
has nothing to do with better PvZ understanding. He as good vs turtly turtle 200/200 BL infestor and could play this way
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On October 02 2011 16:09 DiaBoLuS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 16:07 LittleAtari wrote:On October 02 2011 16:00 eNigma627 wrote:On October 02 2011 15:57 Rokevo wrote:
I'm happy IdrA advances, but he really needs to change his ZvP For the love of God, yes..... 1). Hydras should only be used against double stargate (not one) and should be stopped when Colossus come out 2). Stop engaging into forcefields and chokes... seriously, IdrA is awesome but he has some of the worst army-engagements of all time... and he continues to engage that way and lose armies. 3). Dat nexus.... kill it!!!! the colossus count was always low. Hydras destroy gateway units when supplemented with roach/ling. Idra would kill the colosi pretty quick leaving his roach-hydra to rofl-stomp the gateway units. The only things Idra did bad was where he chose to engage. The positions always favored the protoss, as idra engaged at the tight areas on the third. Still, idra had more than enough money and it was just a matter of time that he would wear him down. I actually think it's kind of crazy that Idra managed to pull off using Hydras as the core of his army by not over-reacting to the colosi and knowing that he could make corruptors to take of them. It's actually a little scary when you think about it the rpoblem is: even with 2 colossi and rest gateway roaches are way more cost effective then hydras vs that army. at some points he was maxed out on hydras almost engaging into a 2x2 choke vs forcefields... cmon...
The 7 range np probably will still only matter when there are like 4+ collosi, since roach/ling buffers enough for 6-7 infesters to move up and nab the couple collosi. Without the collosi the protoss army folds like a cheap tent.
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On October 02 2011 16:09 DiaBoLuS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 16:07 LittleAtari wrote:On October 02 2011 16:00 eNigma627 wrote:On October 02 2011 15:57 Rokevo wrote:
I'm happy IdrA advances, but he really needs to change his ZvP For the love of God, yes..... 1). Hydras should only be used against double stargate (not one) and should be stopped when Colossus come out 2). Stop engaging into forcefields and chokes... seriously, IdrA is awesome but he has some of the worst army-engagements of all time... and he continues to engage that way and lose armies. 3). Dat nexus.... kill it!!!! the colossus count was always low. Hydras destroy gateway units when supplemented with roach/ling. Idra would kill the colosi pretty quick leaving his roach-hydra to rofl-stomp the gateway units. The only things Idra did bad was where he chose to engage. The positions always favored the protoss, as idra engaged at the tight areas on the third. Still, idra had more than enough money and it was just a matter of time that he would wear him down. I actually think it's kind of crazy that Idra managed to pull off using Hydras as the core of his army by not over-reacting to the colosi and knowing that he could make corruptors to take of them. It's actually a little scary when you think about it the rpoblem is: even with 2 colossi and rest gateway roaches are way more cost effective then hydras vs that army. at some points he was maxed out on hydras almost engaging into a 2x2 choke vs forcefields... cmon...
They're slightly more cost effective but they're a ton less supply-efficient. Idra had huge income and enough corruptors to snipe colossi super fast. Once you wipe out a colossus count and have a decent number of corruptors left over, reinforcing with hydras is 100% the right decision (but you have to stay aggressive so the colossus count can't build up again).
Once there are 4 colossus hydras are absolutely worthless, however, no matter how many corruptors you have.
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On October 02 2011 16:11 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 16:09 DiaBoLuS wrote:On October 02 2011 16:07 LittleAtari wrote:On October 02 2011 16:00 eNigma627 wrote:On October 02 2011 15:57 Rokevo wrote:
I'm happy IdrA advances, but he really needs to change his ZvP For the love of God, yes..... 1). Hydras should only be used against double stargate (not one) and should be stopped when Colossus come out 2). Stop engaging into forcefields and chokes... seriously, IdrA is awesome but he has some of the worst army-engagements of all time... and he continues to engage that way and lose armies. 3). Dat nexus.... kill it!!!! the colossus count was always low. Hydras destroy gateway units when supplemented with roach/ling. Idra would kill the colosi pretty quick leaving his roach-hydra to rofl-stomp the gateway units. The only things Idra did bad was where he chose to engage. The positions always favored the protoss, as idra engaged at the tight areas on the third. Still, idra had more than enough money and it was just a matter of time that he would wear him down. I actually think it's kind of crazy that Idra managed to pull off using Hydras as the core of his army by not over-reacting to the colosi and knowing that he could make corruptors to take of them. It's actually a little scary when you think about it the rpoblem is: even with 2 colossi and rest gateway roaches are way more cost effective then hydras vs that army. at some points he was maxed out on hydras almost engaging into a 2x2 choke vs forcefields... cmon... The 7 range np probably will still only matter when there are like 4+ collosi, since roach/ling buffers enough for 6-7 infesters to move up and nab the couple collosi. Without the collosi the protoss army folds like a cheap tent.
Not with blink stalkers (and the neurals have to go off at almost the exact same time).
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On October 02 2011 16:11 Jehct wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 16:09 DiaBoLuS wrote:On October 02 2011 16:07 LittleAtari wrote:On October 02 2011 16:00 eNigma627 wrote:On October 02 2011 15:57 Rokevo wrote:
I'm happy IdrA advances, but he really needs to change his ZvP For the love of God, yes..... 1). Hydras should only be used against double stargate (not one) and should be stopped when Colossus come out 2). Stop engaging into forcefields and chokes... seriously, IdrA is awesome but he has some of the worst army-engagements of all time... and he continues to engage that way and lose armies. 3). Dat nexus.... kill it!!!! the colossus count was always low. Hydras destroy gateway units when supplemented with roach/ling. Idra would kill the colosi pretty quick leaving his roach-hydra to rofl-stomp the gateway units. The only things Idra did bad was where he chose to engage. The positions always favored the protoss, as idra engaged at the tight areas on the third. Still, idra had more than enough money and it was just a matter of time that he would wear him down. I actually think it's kind of crazy that Idra managed to pull off using Hydras as the core of his army by not over-reacting to the colosi and knowing that he could make corruptors to take of them. It's actually a little scary when you think about it the rpoblem is: even with 2 colossi and rest gateway roaches are way more cost effective then hydras vs that army. at some points he was maxed out on hydras almost engaging into a 2x2 choke vs forcefields... cmon... They're slightly more cost effective but they're a ton less supply-efficient. Idra had huge income and enough corruptors to snipe colossi super fast. Once you wipe out a colossus count and have a decent number of corruptors left over, reinforcing with hydras is 100% the right decision (but you have to stay aggressive so the colossus count can't build up again). Once there are 4 colossus hydras are absolutely worthless, however, no matter how many corruptors you have.
He also had creep in Jim's natural basically, which is one of the reasons it could work.
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On October 02 2011 16:02 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 16:00 trikshun wrote:On October 02 2011 15:58 Executor1 wrote:
How the hell does idra advance, 2-0'd the worst player in the group and advances.
Sry jinro. Cant beleive jinro got 2-0'd by Jim, his TVP really really needs some work, while every other terran is smacking protoss's around left and right jinro just cant even seem to take a game off of one of them. Worst player beat Jinro... Yea i know, i said that below, it just doesnt feel like idra deserves to advance either solely based on that win and the fact that jinro beat him and techincally they are tied, aside from map score.
Tournament rules are rules.
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On October 02 2011 16:11 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 16:09 hitpoint wrote:On October 02 2011 16:03 Daralii wrote:On October 02 2011 16:03 hitpoint wrote:On October 02 2011 15:59 Daralii wrote:On October 02 2011 15:58 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 15:54 Asha` wrote:
Terrible game zzzz. Patch ruined PvZ
can''t believe Idra advances rofl How did the patch ruin PvZ? A barely noticeable fungal nerf ruined it, obviously! It's the NP nerf, nobody cares about the fungal nerf. The NP nerf means you need corruptors to kill colossi, and it's hard to make both infestors (150 gas) and corruptors (100 gas). So if you want to do a heavy roach style you make hydras instead of infestors. It makes sense. Link me to one Korean ZvP that was decided by neural. I don't watch the GSL anymore, but there's probably lots of examples. It's not just about winning the game with neural, it's about having it available. If you don't have corruptors, then you used to need bane drops or NP to kill a death ball with more than a few colossi. Plus we're talking about Idra's style. He isn't aggressive or ling heavy like Koreans. I don't even know why you bring them up when we're talking about Idra. I bring them up because they represent the top tier of players. If IdrA's style can't win against more than a couple colossi, then it's not a good style.
I didn't say it was the best style. People were saying the fungal nerf is the reason that Idra is going back to roach/hydra/corrupter. I'm just saying he's obviously doing it because NP isn't a viable option anymore. He wants to play a certain style and this is how he chooses to make it work. I'm not trying to say anything about the Zvp metagame or balance. Aside from the fact that NP is bad against colossus (but it was before also imo.)
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On October 02 2011 16:12 Jehct wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 16:11 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:09 DiaBoLuS wrote:On October 02 2011 16:07 LittleAtari wrote:On October 02 2011 16:00 eNigma627 wrote:On October 02 2011 15:57 Rokevo wrote:
I'm happy IdrA advances, but he really needs to change his ZvP For the love of God, yes..... 1). Hydras should only be used against double stargate (not one) and should be stopped when Colossus come out 2). Stop engaging into forcefields and chokes... seriously, IdrA is awesome but he has some of the worst army-engagements of all time... and he continues to engage that way and lose armies. 3). Dat nexus.... kill it!!!! the colossus count was always low. Hydras destroy gateway units when supplemented with roach/ling. Idra would kill the colosi pretty quick leaving his roach-hydra to rofl-stomp the gateway units. The only things Idra did bad was where he chose to engage. The positions always favored the protoss, as idra engaged at the tight areas on the third. Still, idra had more than enough money and it was just a matter of time that he would wear him down. I actually think it's kind of crazy that Idra managed to pull off using Hydras as the core of his army by not over-reacting to the colosi and knowing that he could make corruptors to take of them. It's actually a little scary when you think about it the rpoblem is: even with 2 colossi and rest gateway roaches are way more cost effective then hydras vs that army. at some points he was maxed out on hydras almost engaging into a 2x2 choke vs forcefields... cmon... The 7 range np probably will still only matter when there are like 4+ collosi, since roach/ling buffers enough for 6-7 infesters to move up and nab the couple collosi. Without the collosi the protoss army folds like a cheap tent. Not with blink stalkers.
2 range won't change the kill radius a blink forward can do, the reason people didn't do it before was because the zerg fungals most of the time and blinking onto mass roach/ling is suicide since stalkers are made of paper when in actual combat.
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Strelok is smashing him as expected ;|
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On October 02 2011 16:14 HolydaKing wrote:
Strelok is smashing him as expected ;|
Strelok is looking to be in top form, maybe his 1st major tournament win?
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On October 02 2011 16:13 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 16:12 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:11 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:09 DiaBoLuS wrote:On October 02 2011 16:07 LittleAtari wrote:On October 02 2011 16:00 eNigma627 wrote:On October 02 2011 15:57 Rokevo wrote:
I'm happy IdrA advances, but he really needs to change his ZvP For the love of God, yes..... 1). Hydras should only be used against double stargate (not one) and should be stopped when Colossus come out 2). Stop engaging into forcefields and chokes... seriously, IdrA is awesome but he has some of the worst army-engagements of all time... and he continues to engage that way and lose armies. 3). Dat nexus.... kill it!!!! the colossus count was always low. Hydras destroy gateway units when supplemented with roach/ling. Idra would kill the colosi pretty quick leaving his roach-hydra to rofl-stomp the gateway units. The only things Idra did bad was where he chose to engage. The positions always favored the protoss, as idra engaged at the tight areas on the third. Still, idra had more than enough money and it was just a matter of time that he would wear him down. I actually think it's kind of crazy that Idra managed to pull off using Hydras as the core of his army by not over-reacting to the colosi and knowing that he could make corruptors to take of them. It's actually a little scary when you think about it the rpoblem is: even with 2 colossi and rest gateway roaches are way more cost effective then hydras vs that army. at some points he was maxed out on hydras almost engaging into a 2x2 choke vs forcefields... cmon... The 7 range np probably will still only matter when there are like 4+ collosi, since roach/ling buffers enough for 6-7 infesters to move up and nab the couple collosi. Without the collosi the protoss army folds like a cheap tent. Not with blink stalkers. 2 range won't change the kill radius a blink forward can do, the reason people didn't do it before was because the zerg fungals most of the time and blinking onto mass roach/ling is suicide since stalkers are made of paper when in actual combat.
Yes it does, what are you talking about. Stalkers have 6 range; if stalkers are under the colossi, the stalkers can shoot the infestor. Even if you don't have blink now you can deny the neurals, it's ridiculous.
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On October 02 2011 15:59 Hopelessnoob wrote:
IMO map score is the worst way to decide ties... how are maps determined in iem? 1 veto and loser pick map?
head to head should be done and if it is all tied it should be a tie breaker
its the best way to decide ties imo, especially when all players won each other
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On October 02 2011 16:15 Jehct wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 16:13 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:12 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:11 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:09 DiaBoLuS wrote:On October 02 2011 16:07 LittleAtari wrote:On October 02 2011 16:00 eNigma627 wrote:On October 02 2011 15:57 Rokevo wrote:
I'm happy IdrA advances, but he really needs to change his ZvP For the love of God, yes..... 1). Hydras should only be used against double stargate (not one) and should be stopped when Colossus come out 2). Stop engaging into forcefields and chokes... seriously, IdrA is awesome but he has some of the worst army-engagements of all time... and he continues to engage that way and lose armies. 3). Dat nexus.... kill it!!!! the colossus count was always low. Hydras destroy gateway units when supplemented with roach/ling. Idra would kill the colosi pretty quick leaving his roach-hydra to rofl-stomp the gateway units. The only things Idra did bad was where he chose to engage. The positions always favored the protoss, as idra engaged at the tight areas on the third. Still, idra had more than enough money and it was just a matter of time that he would wear him down. I actually think it's kind of crazy that Idra managed to pull off using Hydras as the core of his army by not over-reacting to the colosi and knowing that he could make corruptors to take of them. It's actually a little scary when you think about it the rpoblem is: even with 2 colossi and rest gateway roaches are way more cost effective then hydras vs that army. at some points he was maxed out on hydras almost engaging into a 2x2 choke vs forcefields... cmon... The 7 range np probably will still only matter when there are like 4+ collosi, since roach/ling buffers enough for 6-7 infesters to move up and nab the couple collosi. Without the collosi the protoss army folds like a cheap tent. Not with blink stalkers. 2 range won't change the kill radius a blink forward can do, the reason people didn't do it before was because the zerg fungals most of the time and blinking onto mass roach/ling is suicide since stalkers are made of paper when in actual combat. Yes it does, what are you talking about. Stalkers have 7 range; if the colossus is underneath stalkers, the stalkers can shoot the infestor. Even if you don't have blink now you can deny the neurals, it's ridiculous.
Stalkers have 6 range, which means they will still get fungaled and then implode under the wave of roach/ling since the collosi will be taken out of the battle for atleast 5-8 seconds which is enough to crush a protoss army.
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On October 02 2011 16:14 HolydaKing wrote:
Strelok is smashing him as expected ;|
Yes, well, SEA/Australia/NZ is probably the weakest region of the major SC 2 regions, worse than Taiwan if for the simple reason that Sen exists, and worse than China as even the Chinese players in this tournament have 2-0'd all the SEA/Australia/NZ contenders.
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On October 02 2011 16:15 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 16:15 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:13 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:12 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:11 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:09 DiaBoLuS wrote:On October 02 2011 16:07 LittleAtari wrote:On October 02 2011 16:00 eNigma627 wrote:On October 02 2011 15:57 Rokevo wrote:
I'm happy IdrA advances, but he really needs to change his ZvP For the love of God, yes..... 1). Hydras should only be used against double stargate (not one) and should be stopped when Colossus come out 2). Stop engaging into forcefields and chokes... seriously, IdrA is awesome but he has some of the worst army-engagements of all time... and he continues to engage that way and lose armies. 3). Dat nexus.... kill it!!!! the colossus count was always low. Hydras destroy gateway units when supplemented with roach/ling. Idra would kill the colosi pretty quick leaving his roach-hydra to rofl-stomp the gateway units. The only things Idra did bad was where he chose to engage. The positions always favored the protoss, as idra engaged at the tight areas on the third. Still, idra had more than enough money and it was just a matter of time that he would wear him down. I actually think it's kind of crazy that Idra managed to pull off using Hydras as the core of his army by not over-reacting to the colosi and knowing that he could make corruptors to take of them. It's actually a little scary when you think about it the rpoblem is: even with 2 colossi and rest gateway roaches are way more cost effective then hydras vs that army. at some points he was maxed out on hydras almost engaging into a 2x2 choke vs forcefields... cmon... The 7 range np probably will still only matter when there are like 4+ collosi, since roach/ling buffers enough for 6-7 infesters to move up and nab the couple collosi. Without the collosi the protoss army folds like a cheap tent. Not with blink stalkers. 2 range won't change the kill radius a blink forward can do, the reason people didn't do it before was because the zerg fungals most of the time and blinking onto mass roach/ling is suicide since stalkers are made of paper when in actual combat. Yes it does, what are you talking about. Stalkers have 7 range; if the colossus is underneath stalkers, the stalkers can shoot the infestor. Even if you don't have blink now you can deny the neurals, it's ridiculous. Stalkers have 6 range
Was a typo, already fixed.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 02 2011 15:56 Omar91 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 15:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Protoss is a joke.
Anyway, ask SaSe, he will tell you Jim is really good too. I have no idea about PvZ, maybe he sucks at it, but hes good at PvP and PvT apparently. Yey let's blame it on balance ...
I dont care if its balanced or not, I spent a year sucking vs protoss and no matter what I do or try I cant get better at this retarded matchup -- Even when I was doing good, I was NEVER good against protoss, even when I won MLG based off beating protoss players it was only because they had no idea how to counter point defense drones....
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On October 02 2011 16:15 DiaBoLuS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 15:59 Hopelessnoob wrote:
IMO map score is the worst way to decide ties... how are maps determined in iem? 1 veto and loser pick map?
head to head should be done and if it is all tied it should be a tie breaker its the best way to decide ties imo, especially when all players won each other
I never get why tournements dont use the system like BW groups use just with Bo3. That way you will never have ties :/
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Iaguz with his portrait :D
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Come one Iaguz, one win for SEA just one game at least!
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