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[IEM] Guangzhou - Day 2 - Page 70

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
October 02 2011 07:05 GMT
#1381
On October 02 2011 15:59 Zeon0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 15:58 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:57 MrSexington wrote:
That's crazy, but what Rotterdam just said actually made sense.

Advance when 1-2 in the group? Crazy.

well they can't eliminate all three guys with 1-2, can they?
Every time a player in a four man group goes 0-3 or 3-0 this kind of thing happens

not true, look at group a.

i said a player, meaning one, not two

Btw, for those who dont know, this is updated very frequently with results
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IEM_Season_VI_-_Global_Challenge_Guangzhou
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Daralii
Profile Joined March 2010
United States16991 Posts
October 02 2011 07:05 GMT
#1382
On October 02 2011 16:04 Azarkon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 15:59 Asha` wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:56 Malinor wrote:
This game reminds me of one MLG final back in 2010 between Idra and Select. Idra roflstomped Select like he was a low level pro, and Select said in the post-game interview that there were simply no good zergs on NA to train against and that he did just not know any timings of Idra (Idra still living in Korea back then).
The way Jim is playing this series looks pretty similar. His strats were just so outdated, it seemed that he never faced a Zerg of this calibre before.

The alternative explanation would be that Jim is just bad, but at least he beat Jinro. Grats Idra for advancing.


His strats aren't really that outdated, just watch any PvZ since 1.4 hit. It's all back to basically the same old shit. Zergs are going roach/hydra/corruptor a lot and Protoss are trying to make a 3base deathball.

Game was basically over as soon as the stargate was scouted and consequently never going to get even a bit of damage done. Utterly untouched Zerg economy was always going to run rampant.


Yes and no.

Zergs may have reverted (though it might just be IdrA), but Protoss has not.

IdrA and Dimaga are the only two zergs using roach/hydra/corruptor as far as I know. Most Koreans are favoring lings, mutas, infestors, and broods from what I've seen.
Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth!
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
October 02 2011 07:05 GMT
#1383
On October 02 2011 16:05 Maghetti wrote:
Noooo I wanted to see Revival :/

seriously, no more tvt. this isnt gsl!!!!
ScaringKids
Profile Joined November 2010
Portugal819 Posts
October 02 2011 07:06 GMT
#1384
IAGUZ FIGHTING!!!
MC | NesTea | Jaedong | PartinG | Liquid'HerO | MvP | Flash | White-Ra | Polt | Squirtle |
Harrow
Profile Joined November 2010
United States245 Posts
October 02 2011 07:06 GMT
#1385
On October 02 2011 16:03 Daralii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 16:03 hitpoint wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:59 Daralii wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:58 Hierarch wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:54 Asha` wrote:
Terrible game zzzz. Patch ruined PvZ

can''t believe Idra advances rofl


How did the patch ruin PvZ?

A barely noticeable fungal nerf ruined it, obviously!


It's the NP nerf, nobody cares about the fungal nerf. The NP nerf means you need corruptors to kill colossi, and it's hard to make both infestors (150 gas) and corruptors (100 gas). So if you want to do a heavy roach style you make hydras instead of infestors. It makes sense.

Link me to one Korean ZvP that was decided by neural.


Colossi are much more common in PvZ outside of Korea. NP was one reason why.
Serpico
Profile Joined May 2010
4285 Posts
October 02 2011 07:06 GMT
#1386
On October 02 2011 16:05 Hierarch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 16:03 Asha` wrote:
On October 02 2011 16:00 Hierarch wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:59 Daralii wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:58 Hierarch wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:54 Asha` wrote:
Terrible game zzzz. Patch ruined PvZ

can''t believe Idra advances rofl


How did the patch ruin PvZ?

A barely noticeable fungal nerf ruined it, obviously!


Apparently lol, just ask Dimaga or stephano what they think lol, it wasn't even that big of a deal since didn't the measure it takes the same amount of chained fungals to kill almost everything accept marines?


I asked Dimaga, he responded by happily going roach/hydra/corruptor vs JYP. It's pretty obvious that since the patch the more interesting PvZ strats we'd been seen have been getting disregarded in favour of the old deathball approach or 2 base blink timings, and on the Zerg side of things players are readopting roach/hydra/corruptor giving us far less versatility in unit composition than we had before it


That's a crutch then imo, falling back on the same old crutch is not the right answer, until people can definitively show that the matchup has regressed than it's stupid to say the patch ruined it.

The right answer is what wins you games.
HolydaKing
Profile Joined February 2010
21254 Posts
October 02 2011 07:06 GMT
#1387
On October 02 2011 16:05 Maghetti wrote:
Noooo I wanted to see Revival :/

Me too, ah well the SEA people can be happy at last.
Zeon0
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria2995 Posts
October 02 2011 07:06 GMT
#1388
On October 02 2011 16:05 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 15:59 Zeon0 wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:58 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:57 MrSexington wrote:
That's crazy, but what Rotterdam just said actually made sense.

Advance when 1-2 in the group? Crazy.

well they can't eliminate all three guys with 1-2, can they?
Every time a player in a four man group goes 0-3 or 3-0 this kind of thing happens

not true, look at group a.

i said a player, meaning one, not two

Btw, for those who dont know, this is updated very frequently with results
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IEM_Season_VI_-_Global_Challenge_Guangzhou

u should've said one instead of a, just to be clear :p
Hater of MKP since GSL Open Season 2 | Fanboy of: NesTea Stephano IdrA DIMAGA MorroW ret DongRaeGu Snute SaSe Mvp ThorZaIN DeMusliM
LittleAtari
Profile Joined August 2010
Jordan1090 Posts
October 02 2011 07:07 GMT
#1389
On October 02 2011 16:00 eNigma627 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 15:57 Rokevo wrote:
I'm happy IdrA advances, but he really needs to change his ZvP


For the love of God, yes.....

1). Hydras should only be used against double stargate (not one) and should be stopped when Colossus come out

2). Stop engaging into forcefields and chokes... seriously, IdrA is awesome but he has some of the worst army-engagements of all time... and he continues to engage that way and lose armies.

3). Dat nexus.... kill it!!!!


the colossus count was always low. Hydras destroy gateway units when supplemented with roach/ling. Idra would kill the colosi pretty quick leaving his roach-hydra to rofl-stomp the gateway units. The only things Idra did bad was where he chose to engage. The positions always favored the protoss, as idra engaged at the tight areas on the third. Still, idra had more than enough money and it was just a matter of time that he would wear him down.

I actually think it's kind of crazy that Idra managed to pull off using Hydras as the core of his army by not over-reacting to the colosi and knowing that he could make corruptors to take of them. It's actually a little scary when you think about it
minimat
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Australia344 Posts
October 02 2011 07:07 GMT
#1390
Wooooo go Iaguz!!!
tuho12345
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
4482 Posts
October 02 2011 07:07 GMT
#1391
On October 02 2011 16:02 Zeon0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 16:00 Hierarch wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:59 Daralii wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:58 Hierarch wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:54 Asha` wrote:
Terrible game zzzz. Patch ruined PvZ

can''t believe Idra advances rofl


How did the patch ruin PvZ?

A barely noticeable fungal nerf ruined it, obviously!


Apparently lol, just ask Dimaga or stephano what they think lol, it wasn't even that big of a deal since didn't the measure it takes the same amount of chained fungals to kill almost everything accept marines?

u need 1 fungal more, because u would have to chain the fungals perfectly, but if u miss like 0.5s of a fungal, a stalker blink. so u have to stack them a bit and therefore u need 1 fungal more.

bold part, isn't what make a better player? Protoss has to blink to survive, otherwise Zerg just keep pressing down 1 hot key FG and enjoy the macroing?
Hierarch
Profile Joined February 2011
United States2197 Posts
October 02 2011 07:07 GMT
#1392
On October 02 2011 16:06 Serpico wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 16:05 Hierarch wrote:
On October 02 2011 16:03 Asha` wrote:
On October 02 2011 16:00 Hierarch wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:59 Daralii wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:58 Hierarch wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:54 Asha` wrote:
Terrible game zzzz. Patch ruined PvZ

can''t believe Idra advances rofl


How did the patch ruin PvZ?

A barely noticeable fungal nerf ruined it, obviously!


Apparently lol, just ask Dimaga or stephano what they think lol, it wasn't even that big of a deal since didn't the measure it takes the same amount of chained fungals to kill almost everything accept marines?


I asked Dimaga, he responded by happily going roach/hydra/corruptor vs JYP. It's pretty obvious that since the patch the more interesting PvZ strats we'd been seen have been getting disregarded in favour of the old deathball approach or 2 base blink timings, and on the Zerg side of things players are readopting roach/hydra/corruptor giving us far less versatility in unit composition than we had before it


That's a crutch then imo, falling back on the same old crutch is not the right answer, until people can definitively show that the matchup has regressed than it's stupid to say the patch ruined it.

The right answer is what wins you games.


To an extent if using that crutch wins you games than that's fine and dandy but on the same note you can't turn it around when you lose and go "Protoss is broken, this matchup is stupid FU Blizzard!!!!!!!"
MC|NonY|HerO|NaDa|MVP|DRG|Ret|Sen|Dimaga|Leenock
DiaBoLuS
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany1638 Posts
October 02 2011 07:07 GMT
#1393
On October 02 2011 16:05 Jehct wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 15:59 Asha` wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:56 Malinor wrote:
This game reminds me of one MLG final back in 2010 between Idra and Select. Idra roflstomped Select like he was a low level pro, and Select said in the post-game interview that there were simply no good zergs on NA to train against and that he did just not know any timings of Idra (Idra still living in Korea back then).
The way Jim is playing this series looks pretty similar. His strats were just so outdated, it seemed that he never faced a Zerg of this calibre before.

The alternative explanation would be that Jim is just bad, but at least he beat Jinro. Grats Idra for advancing.


His strats aren't really that outdated, just watch any PvZ since 1.4 hit. It's all back to basically the same old shit. Zergs are going roach/hydra/corruptor a lot and Protoss are trying to make a 3base deathball.

Game was basically over as soon as the stargate was scouted and consequently never going to get even a bit of damage done. Utterly untouched Zerg economy was always going to run rampant.

There's no other choice. People point out the fungal change was barely noticable and they're right, they just don't understand how important the neural nerf was. The only way for infestor-based compositions to go toe-to-toe with decent colossus numbers was neural; now you can't do that.

That's why people like Sase called the change stupid. Micro (blink/spreading/colossus positioning) could deal with the 11 range neural. When it's at 7 range if the zerg ever neurals a colossus the protoss fucked up (and either way the infestor will be focused down instantly because it's in range of the stalkers).

This also means a well-rounded protoss max should beat any zerg composition without broodlords now, but maybe that's intended (if there's a way to still make ultra's work without neural I haven't seen it).

It also made thor/banshee/hellion a pain TvZ, but that's a whole different story.


11 range neural? wanna neural me from your own base or woot? it was 9, not 11 oO 8 wouldve been the perfect change i guess, 7 makes it almost useless
European Ranking: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=182293
Jehct
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
New Zealand9115 Posts
October 02 2011 07:08 GMT
#1394
On October 02 2011 16:04 iamke55 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 16:02 Maghetti wrote:
I didn't think Jim played THAT bad that game. He was getting the right units, he was expanding the right way, he just didn't have macro as good as idra did, made some control mistakes, and worse of all for me, he didn't build enough cannons. Watching huk play that style you see lots of cannons and always has troops ready to stand the ground with cannons, units, and forcefields cutting up the attacking armies.He had the right idea.

Huk has a much better understanding of PvZ (or maybe he just uses better builds) so he finds a way to get enough econ to support mass cannons.

I think he just builds more sentries in the midgame (which frees up minerals for cannons).
"You seem to think about this game a lot"
John Madden
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
American Samoa894 Posts
October 02 2011 07:08 GMT
#1395
IAGUZ FIGHTING!
FOOTBALL
Jehct
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
New Zealand9115 Posts
October 02 2011 07:08 GMT
#1396
On October 02 2011 16:07 DiaBoLuS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 16:05 Jehct wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:59 Asha` wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:56 Malinor wrote:
This game reminds me of one MLG final back in 2010 between Idra and Select. Idra roflstomped Select like he was a low level pro, and Select said in the post-game interview that there were simply no good zergs on NA to train against and that he did just not know any timings of Idra (Idra still living in Korea back then).
The way Jim is playing this series looks pretty similar. His strats were just so outdated, it seemed that he never faced a Zerg of this calibre before.

The alternative explanation would be that Jim is just bad, but at least he beat Jinro. Grats Idra for advancing.


His strats aren't really that outdated, just watch any PvZ since 1.4 hit. It's all back to basically the same old shit. Zergs are going roach/hydra/corruptor a lot and Protoss are trying to make a 3base deathball.

Game was basically over as soon as the stargate was scouted and consequently never going to get even a bit of damage done. Utterly untouched Zerg economy was always going to run rampant.

There's no other choice. People point out the fungal change was barely noticable and they're right, they just don't understand how important the neural nerf was. The only way for infestor-based compositions to go toe-to-toe with decent colossus numbers was neural; now you can't do that.

That's why people like Sase called the change stupid. Micro (blink/spreading/colossus positioning) could deal with the 11 range neural. When it's at 7 range if the zerg ever neurals a colossus the protoss fucked up (and either way the infestor will be focused down instantly because it's in range of the stalkers).

This also means a well-rounded protoss max should beat any zerg composition without broodlords now, but maybe that's intended (if there's a way to still make ultra's work without neural I haven't seen it).

It also made thor/banshee/hellion a pain TvZ, but that's a whole different story.


11 range neural? wanna neural me from your own base or woot? it was 9, not 11 oO 8 wouldve been the perfect change i guess, 7 makes it almost useless

You're totally right, my mistake haha.
"You seem to think about this game a lot"
GreenAndOrangeTurtle
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia193 Posts
October 02 2011 07:09 GMT
#1397
On October 02 2011 16:02 Maghetti wrote:
I didn't think Jim played THAT bad that game. He was getting the right units, he was expanding the right way, he just didn't have macro as good as idra did, made some control mistakes, and worse of all for me, he didn't build enough cannons. Watching huk play that style you see lots of cannons and always has troops ready to stand the ground with cannons, units, and forcefields cutting up the attacking armies.He had the right idea.


I think that the real problem with Jim's play was not denying the creep spread. Hydras on creep are 10x better than off creep because you can actually micro and retreat with them
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein
hitpoint
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1511 Posts
October 02 2011 07:09 GMT
#1398
On October 02 2011 16:03 Daralii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 16:03 hitpoint wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:59 Daralii wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:58 Hierarch wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:54 Asha` wrote:
Terrible game zzzz. Patch ruined PvZ

can''t believe Idra advances rofl


How did the patch ruin PvZ?

A barely noticeable fungal nerf ruined it, obviously!


It's the NP nerf, nobody cares about the fungal nerf. The NP nerf means you need corruptors to kill colossi, and it's hard to make both infestors (150 gas) and corruptors (100 gas). So if you want to do a heavy roach style you make hydras instead of infestors. It makes sense.

Link me to one Korean ZvP that was decided by neural.


I don't watch the GSL anymore, but there's probably lots of examples. It's not just about winning the game with neural, it's about having it available. If you don't have corruptors, then you used to need bane drops or NP to kill a death ball with more than a few colossi.

Plus we're talking about Idra's style. He isn't aggressive or ling heavy like Koreans. I don't even know why you bring them up when we're talking about Idra.
It's spelled LOSE not LOOSE.
DiaBoLuS
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany1638 Posts
October 02 2011 07:09 GMT
#1399
On October 02 2011 16:07 LittleAtari wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 16:00 eNigma627 wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:57 Rokevo wrote:
I'm happy IdrA advances, but he really needs to change his ZvP


For the love of God, yes.....

1). Hydras should only be used against double stargate (not one) and should be stopped when Colossus come out

2). Stop engaging into forcefields and chokes... seriously, IdrA is awesome but he has some of the worst army-engagements of all time... and he continues to engage that way and lose armies.

3). Dat nexus.... kill it!!!!


the colossus count was always low. Hydras destroy gateway units when supplemented with roach/ling. Idra would kill the colosi pretty quick leaving his roach-hydra to rofl-stomp the gateway units. The only things Idra did bad was where he chose to engage. The positions always favored the protoss, as idra engaged at the tight areas on the third. Still, idra had more than enough money and it was just a matter of time that he would wear him down.

I actually think it's kind of crazy that Idra managed to pull off using Hydras as the core of his army by not over-reacting to the colosi and knowing that he could make corruptors to take of them. It's actually a little scary when you think about it


the rpoblem is: even with 2 colossi and rest gateway roaches are way more cost effective then hydras vs that army. at some points he was maxed out on hydras almost engaging into a 2x2 choke vs forcefields... cmon...
European Ranking: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=182293
Daralii
Profile Joined March 2010
United States16991 Posts
October 02 2011 07:11 GMT
#1400
On October 02 2011 16:09 hitpoint wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2011 16:03 Daralii wrote:
On October 02 2011 16:03 hitpoint wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:59 Daralii wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:58 Hierarch wrote:
On October 02 2011 15:54 Asha` wrote:
Terrible game zzzz. Patch ruined PvZ

can''t believe Idra advances rofl


How did the patch ruin PvZ?

A barely noticeable fungal nerf ruined it, obviously!


It's the NP nerf, nobody cares about the fungal nerf. The NP nerf means you need corruptors to kill colossi, and it's hard to make both infestors (150 gas) and corruptors (100 gas). So if you want to do a heavy roach style you make hydras instead of infestors. It makes sense.

Link me to one Korean ZvP that was decided by neural.


I don't watch the GSL anymore, but there's probably lots of examples. It's not just about winning the game with neural, it's about having it available. If you don't have corruptors, then you used to need bane drops or NP to kill a death ball with more than a few colossi.

Plus we're talking about Idra's style. He isn't aggressive or ling heavy like Koreans. I don't even know why you bring them up when we're talking about Idra.

I bring them up because they represent the top tier of players. If IdrA's style can't win against more than a couple colossi, then it's not a good style.
Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth!
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