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[GSL] Oct Code A RO8 - Page 57

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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stormtemplar
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2140 Posts
September 26 2011 20:11 GMT
#1121
On September 27 2011 04:48 sitromit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 27 2011 04:17 MrCon wrote:
Bel'shir beach is way better for protoss now that the natural has only one entrance.
But yeah dual sight is crap. Should have been fixed the same way bel'shir was.

For the "one overseer and Sage build would not work" it's not that simple :
1/ The current metagame doesn't involve an in-base overseer. If zerg has such an early overseer, it will be located in/near the protoss main. Assuming Sage was lucky because Lucky didn't have double detection in his main is going to far in theorycraftland.
2/ He had a spore in his main. When Tails killed Nestea, everyone was "but Tails was lucky Nestea didn't have a spore in his main". Now a zerg has a spore, and "but he was lucky he didn't have an overseer in addition to the spore".

It's not that easy. And if it was, it would mean that zergs builds evolved into getting a spore everywhere + making overseer, which is already a win for protoss compared to current builds.


So why are Protoss entitled to maps with lots of chokes so they can take expansions with impunity? We need more maps with 20% ZvP win rates like Daybreak?


Protoss is entitled to enough chokes that they can win games. Under 30% winrate on daybreak is unacceptable for any race, both should be fixed.
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
September 26 2011 20:42 GMT
#1122
So if anyone is upset at protoss winning these games. it's not a big deal. metagame shifts always involve an "unbeatable" strategy. solely because it beats the current choices of a race. but that does NOT mean it is close to unbeatable. i've been suggesting protosses do this to zerg and that zergs would be unable to stop this for a while since MC won his seconds GSL. Whiplash should be able to attest to this when i told him in person that DT -> archon drops would beat zerg pretty consistantly at zergs current understanding of the game.


this can be beaten by a faster lair accompanied by double evo upgrades to compensate vs regular builds. note how lucky learned from game 1 and used zerglings to protect from DTs zerglings are some of the best defense vs DTs since they can block important buildings from death and kill DTs pretty fast. generally if zergs play this properly things work out to be a 4-5 base zerg vs 3-4 base protoss and games become much larger. the fast expo DT has weaknesses in which zerg can harrass with using zerglings + mutalisks to harrass in this weakpoints without going all in. and allowing them to take and secure a fourth base.
CeriseCherries
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
6170 Posts
September 26 2011 20:57 GMT
#1123
...sigh... one sided mirror matches and sage...

at least protoss is less sad
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
Cassel_Castle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States820 Posts
September 26 2011 21:52 GMT
#1124
On September 27 2011 00:54 sitromit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 27 2011 00:48 j3i wrote:
On September 27 2011 00:28 4of8 wrote:
On September 27 2011 00:16 sitromit wrote:
On September 26 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:
What people focused on with MC were his timing attacks off of two base, but what they didn't notice was that MC was expanding behind those attacks most games, especially vs Zerg. It wasn't his fault that July could never hold his timings for long enough so that the observer would go back to MC's side and see him with his 3 bases. He played the game the way he thought was his best chance to win, and win he did.


Yeah, when he did those Nexus cancel, ramp forcefield all-ins, he was taking bases behind it right? :p


Didn't you see all these Nexi MC build in July's base :D


bahahaha. but srsly, what's a "ramp forcefield all-in?"


It's the kind of Protoss "skill" where they cancel their nexus and 4 gate while forcefielding the ramp of the Zerg, so he can't even reinforce, while the Toss keeps warping in units at their heart's content from their conveniently placed nearby pylons. It takes an extreme amount of skill. You have to keep pressing "F"!


It's also nearly impossible on most current maps since you can engage with spines and lings really far away from the ramp.
Choboo
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Sweden2088 Posts
September 26 2011 21:55 GMT
#1125
On September 27 2011 04:48 sitromit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 27 2011 04:17 MrCon wrote:
Bel'shir beach is way better for protoss now that the natural has only one entrance.
But yeah dual sight is crap. Should have been fixed the same way bel'shir was.

For the "one overseer and Sage build would not work" it's not that simple :
1/ The current metagame doesn't involve an in-base overseer. If zerg has such an early overseer, it will be located in/near the protoss main. Assuming Sage was lucky because Lucky didn't have double detection in his main is going to far in theorycraftland.
2/ He had a spore in his main. When Tails killed Nestea, everyone was "but Tails was lucky Nestea didn't have a spore in his main". Now a zerg has a spore, and "but he was lucky he didn't have an overseer in addition to the spore".

It's not that easy. And if it was, it would mean that zergs builds evolved into getting a spore everywhere + making overseer, which is already a win for protoss compared to current builds.


So why are Protoss entitled to maps with lots of chokes so they can take expansions with impunity? We need more maps with 20% ZvP win rates like Daybreak?

Daybreak is DRG's favorite map :oo
SaSe fan club manager
Brotatolol
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1742 Posts
September 27 2011 00:47 GMT
#1126
Wow, that was some nice warp prism play from Sage last night. I'm hoping to see him win Code A this season for a definite code S spot, even though I'm sure he'd be able to make it through the up and down matches .
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland19035 Posts
September 27 2011 01:45 GMT
#1127
Ok to summarise:

'Sage won with an exploitation of the timings on a quick third hatch + delayed lair to beat a Zerg with minimal detection = new king of Protoss'

'MC only won with timing knowledge and exploiting them, he's figured out and now sucks'


Both of these players are talented talented guys. Far too much bandwagoning on these forums.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-27 01:55:13
September 27 2011 01:53 GMT
#1128
On September 27 2011 04:53 MrCon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 27 2011 04:48 sitromit wrote:
On September 27 2011 04:17 MrCon wrote:
Bel'shir beach is way better for protoss now that the natural has only one entrance.
But yeah dual sight is crap. Should have been fixed the same way bel'shir was.

For the "one overseer and Sage build would not work" it's not that simple :
1/ The current metagame doesn't involve an in-base overseer. If zerg has such an early overseer, it will be located in/near the protoss main. Assuming Sage was lucky because Lucky didn't have double detection in his main is going to far in theorycraftland.
2/ He had a spore in his main. When Tails killed Nestea, everyone was "but Tails was lucky Nestea didn't have a spore in his main". Now a zerg has a spore, and "but he was lucky he didn't have an overseer in addition to the spore".

It's not that easy. And if it was, it would mean that zergs builds evolved into getting a spore everywhere + making overseer, which is already a win for protoss compared to current builds.


So why are Protoss entitled to maps with lots of chokes so they can take expansions with impunity? We need more maps with 20% ZvP win rates like Daybreak?

Bleh.
So Daybreak with its 22% ZvP winrate is not ok but Dual Sight with its 28% PvZ is ?

Daybreak is still a very new map and I hold my opinion until more games are played on it. A lot of the losses I attribute to the other player being better, not the map.

On the other hand Dual Sight is tried and tested yet Protoss still has an abysmal record on it. That map may need revisions.


To your other comment about overseers and spores in the main/third/natural/proxied on the other side of the map.

I suppose it is a weighted risk. You can't afford to be everywhere without being behind and you gamble on where you defend. We saw two Zergs lose to great DT placement. We also saw Huk look just as bad because he tried to DT through the natural.

I think the solution is less spores or the same amount of spores and a overseer at home. At only the third of the prior cost, it seems silly not to make one.



Ubertron: You're missing the point where Sage appeared with zealots and DTs. I don't have the urge to dissect the differences in Sage and MCs current play but instead: Sage is putting up results, MC is not. There are differences, even if not fundamental ones, in the players approach to the game.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
snakeeyez
Profile Joined May 2011
United States1231 Posts
September 27 2011 01:57 GMT
#1129
Sage is pimp. Who would think when they see a doom zerg drop to drop down a bunch of pylons to cut up the zerg roaches knowing they have bad range so his 6 range stalkers can pick them off without wasting an force fields? One protoss I can think of his name is Sage.
Hierarch
Profile Joined February 2011
United States2197 Posts
September 27 2011 03:36 GMT
#1130
On September 27 2011 10:45 Ubertron wrote:
Ok to summarise:

'Sage won with an exploitation of the timings on a quick third hatch + delayed lair to beat a Zerg with minimal detection = new king of Protoss'

'MC only won with timing knowledge and exploiting them, he's figured out and now sucks'


Both of these players are talented talented guys. Far too much bandwagoning on these forums.


Atleast he's trying something new, I mean c'mon he did archon drops :D
MC|NonY|HerO|NaDa|MVP|DRG|Ret|Sen|Dimaga|Leenock
rezoacken
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2719 Posts
September 27 2011 04:04 GMT
#1131
Why are some people criticizing Sage for timing attacks ?

A timing is different than an all in (or usually a timing all-in). Starcraft is all about timings... and timing attacks. What do you want player to do ? attack at random time when the opponent is the strongest lol ?
Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.
bittman
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia8759 Posts
September 27 2011 04:10 GMT
#1132
On September 27 2011 13:04 rezoacken wrote:
Why are some people criticizing Sage for timing attacks ?

A timing is different than an all in (or usually a timing all-in). Starcraft is all about timings... and timing attacks. What do you want player to do ? attack at random time when the opponent is the strongest lol ?


Hahaha. Every player does timing attacks, but for some reason when used on a Protoss player the term "timing attack" has become a negative.

Any attack that is planned is a timing attack, meant to line up with something. Whether new research, new units, a falter by the enemy, etc. To be honest I'm not sure what a "timing attack" is, but I would guess a "planned offensive against the opponent in order to line up with research" is the definition?

And I don't see any issue with this. Sage uses timing attacks? Fantastic, so does every other player.
Mvp - Leenock - Dongraegu - MC - Gumiho - Keen - Polt - Squirtle - Jjakji - Genius - Seed - Life - sC - Dream || LG-IM - MVP - FXO
JesusOurSaviour
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Australia1141 Posts
September 27 2011 04:11 GMT
#1133
On September 27 2011 10:57 snakeeyez wrote:
Sage is pimp. Who would think when they see a doom zerg drop to drop down a bunch of pylons to cut up the zerg roaches knowing they have bad range so his 6 range stalkers can pick them off without wasting an force fields? One protoss I can think of his name is Sage.
Pimpest plays incoming I hope some youtube fanatic does a pimpest plays of 2011 for SCII. A perfectly executed warp prism HT-drop-storm combo would definitely feature
Jesus: "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Sea[Shield]: "I want to be a good father. I want to raise a family with a wife that's like a fox, kids that are like rabbits"
hai2u
Profile Joined September 2011
688 Posts
September 27 2011 04:15 GMT
#1134
Sage shouldnt have changed his name, FreeDSL is one of TheBest names ever.
Deleted User 183001
Profile Joined May 2011
2939 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-27 04:50:47
September 27 2011 04:50 GMT
#1135
I hope Sage wins Code A in order to bring some Protoss vengeance >: )
RinconH
Profile Joined April 2010
United States512 Posts
September 27 2011 16:50 GMT
#1136
Sage = Che Guevara Toss.

Bringing hope.

I want to see what he does vs. Terran though... specifically holding early all-ins/timings.

He's only played Z so far...
Prev 1 55 56 57
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