EPTMakes me wish there were even less zergs in tourneys but then i'd be denied my favorite TvZs ><
[GSL] Oct Code A RO8 - Page 56
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
Makes me wish there were even less zergs in tourneys but then i'd be denied my favorite TvZs >< | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
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-y0shi-
Germany994 Posts
I still dont understand the first game, if zerg gets one overseer instead of one spore sage is DEAD. Everything afterwards didnt even matter anymore, the game was over anyways. Dont get me wrong, Id love to celebrate this game but in the end it just seemed lucky. The lair was done and he had gas so if he had spend 50 gas on an overseer instead of 3 spores he wouldve been fine. | ||
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
On September 27 2011 01:58 -y0shi- wrote: I love how people critize mc but celebrate sage for doing a dt rush. That was a timing attack as well. I still dont understand the first game, if zerg gets one overseer instead of one spore sage is DEAD. Everything afterwards didnt even matter anymore, the game was over anyways. Dont get me wrong, Id love to celebrate this game but in the end it just seemed lucky. The lair was done and he had gas so if he had spend 50 gas on an overseer instead of 3 spores he wouldve been fine. I think Sage understood Lucky's build so well that in both game he went for 4 quick hatches instead of putting up defensive units. So on the map that the main and third is so far away from each other. It's good to stretch multitasking and harassing while expanding on those big maps. | ||
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-y0shi-
Germany994 Posts
Id just like to know how he couldve known that zerg had none (and he had time/money, he had spores up) or if he just gambled. Or did he snipe the lair the moment it was done? | ||
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wklbishop
United States1286 Posts
On September 27 2011 02:05 tuho12345 wrote: I think Sage understood Lucky's build so well that in both game he went for 4 quick hatches instead of putting up defensive units. So on the map that the main and third is so far away from each other. It's good to stretch multitasking and harassing while expanding on those big maps. -y0shi- is right though, timing attacks depend on knowing your opponent's builds well which is actually something that made MC's timing attacks very deadly as well. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On September 27 2011 02:16 -y0shi- wrote: Multitasking :/ ? He just dropped 8 dts which means "do you have an overseer? no? i win" Id just like to know how he couldve known that zerg had none (and he had time/money, he had spores up) or if he just gambled. Or did he snipe the lair the moment it was done? The meta-game is at the point where the standard Zerg response to a quick 2-base from Protoss is a very fast 3rd and a delayed Lair. A common follow-up for Protoss is Stargate, so if the Zerg can't get good enough scouting information, putting a Spore in each mineral line helps not only defend Stargate play, but also DT play. The only problem with that is the Zerg player is assuming the Protoss will only send 1 DT to each mineral line and they can be cleaned up before the Spore can be taken down. 8 DT's will take down any static defense and the Lair before you can get an Overseer into the main, assuming it was at the natural, even if it was already morphed beforehand. The change to 50 gas for Overseers was nice, but the fact of the matter is when Zerg goes for that super fast third and late lair, they usually rely on Spores for their detection until the gas starts rolling in or they SEE the DT's, and by then the main is fucked. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
He's doing bad because his slump coincided with Protoss being crap in general. If he was only slumping, or playing really well with a relatively poor race, he'd probably still be in Code S, or on his way to win Code A. He'd still be in Code A if he hadn't gotten shitty Dual Sight as his third map against Monster. On a related note, Gom really needs to revisit the map pool and remove the likes of Dual Sight or Bel'shir Beach. I'd also add some PvT favored maps, but I have some trouble figuring out how those would look. On September 27 2011 01:58 -y0shi- wrote: I love how people critize mc but celebrate sage for doing a dt rush. That was a timing attack as well. I still dont understand the first game, if zerg gets one overseer instead of one spore sage is DEAD. Everything afterwards didnt even matter anymore, the game was over anyways. Dont get me wrong, Id love to celebrate this game but in the end it just seemed lucky. The lair was done and he had gas so if he had spend 50 gas on an overseer instead of 3 spores he wouldve been fine. I don't think that's the most pronounced risk in that build. I think Lucky sniffing out the drop and having units in position would have shut it down much harder. Even if he had made the overseer, he'd still have lost the Lair before his units got there, imo. In any case, nobody makes an Overseer that fast with this build, so that was a good assumption to make imo. The whole point of these builds (although the one in g2 looked more solid) is that Zergs use these 3 hatch before gas with late Lair builds to get way ahead on economy. If this type of play proves these to be either unsafe, or not worth it due to the requirement to overinvest in 3 spores at every base, then that's a huge metagame win for Protoss. | ||
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vnlegend
United States1389 Posts
With good defense, easy to mass drones or lings, I still feel the ideal Zerg will be better than the ideal Protoss. Protoss is still lacking in early-mid game aggression. Mass speedlings can crush almost everything. P is probably really missing the zealot speed upgrade from BW. Charge is pretty crap. | ||
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dgwow
Canada1024 Posts
Although its possible Oz beats Sage, he's great at preparing builds | ||
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MooLen
Germany501 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 27 2011 01:58 -y0shi- wrote: I love how people critize mc but celebrate sage for doing a dt rush. That was a timing attack as well. I still dont understand the first game, if zerg gets one overseer instead of one spore sage is DEAD. Everything afterwards didnt even matter anymore, the game was over anyways. Dont get me wrong, Id love to celebrate this game but in the end it just seemed lucky. The lair was done and he had gas so if he had spend 50 gas on an overseer instead of 3 spores he wouldve been fine. DT's are not a rush... They are a a high dps harrass unit, even better than marine drops in terms of destruction... Ever seen a zerg die to drops? I don't get why people think Protoss drops are only good if zerg screws up... If Lucky had been in position, Sage could have drawn back, used his dts for mapcontrol and counterdropping while expanding. It's not dts are just a big allin attack like a frontal 6gate... The way it happened he got ahead, other times people lose the drop (ever seen a failed blue flame hellion drop?), but still have chances to win the game... Also, what if Lucky had had an overseer but down at the third? would not have helped him at all. Just having an overseer doesn't make dts worthless! MC had those moments too! (his dt rush vs July, follwing it with a 6gate, knowing that July would not be able to defend) the difference though is, that the metagame has changed. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
But yeah dual sight is crap. Should have been fixed the same way bel'shir was. For the "one overseer and Sage build would not work" it's not that simple : 1/ The current metagame doesn't involve an in-base overseer. If zerg has such an early overseer, it will be located in/near the protoss main. Assuming Sage was lucky because Lucky didn't have double detection in his main is going to far in theorycraftland. 2/ He had a spore in his main. When Tails killed Nestea, everyone was "but Tails was lucky Nestea didn't have a spore in his main". Now a zerg has a spore, and "but he was lucky he didn't have an overseer in addition to the spore". It's not that easy. And if it was, it would mean that zergs builds evolved into getting a spore everywhere + making overseer, which is already a win for protoss compared to current builds. | ||
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Slangen
Sweden1166 Posts
On September 27 2011 02:42 vnlegend wrote: Nice builds by Sage but with the cheaper Overseers, Zergs can just blindly make Overseers vs him/Protoss and be safer from DTs. With good defense, easy to mass drones or lings, I still feel the ideal Zerg will be better than the ideal Protoss. Protoss is still lacking in early-mid game aggression. Mass speedlings can crush almost everything. P is probably really missing the zealot speed upgrade from BW. Charge is pretty crap. Watch Sage prove you wrong in the future. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 27 2011 04:17 MrCon wrote: Bel'shir beach is way better for protoss now that the natural has only one entrance. But yeah dual sight is crap. Should have been fixed the same way bel'shir was. For the "one overseer and Sage build would not work" it's not that simple : 1/ The current metagame doesn't involve an in-base overseer. If zerg has such an early overseer, it will be located in/near the protoss main. Assuming Sage was lucky because Lucky didn't have double detection in his main is going to far in theorycraftland. 2/ He had a spore in his main. When Tails killed Nestea, everyone was "but Tails was lucky Nestea didn't have a spore in his main". Now a zerg has a spore, and "but he was lucky he didn't have an overseer in addition to the spore". It's not that easy. And if it was, it would mean that zergs builds evolved into getting a spore everywhere + making overseer, which is already a win for protoss compared to current builds. Well, to be fair, what Tails ended up doing was lucky. If he actually planned on achieving that exact result, then he's either insane or a future Protoss bonjwa. Sage's DT play today though, looked pretty stable, and not particularly easy to hardcounter. Especially in g2, preventing that third from going down would've required a considerable amount of units at a time when Zerg wants to be making only drones. The other difficulty is that a hatch-tech Zerg only has any mobility with speedlings, which get rolled by +1 Zealots at that point in the game. They're also very larvae-inefficient. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On September 27 2011 04:36 Toadvine wrote: Yeah I agree, Tails shouldn't have been able to walk up the ramp, and he was lucky in that way, but not in the way that there was no detection in the main.Well, to be fair, what Tails ended up doing was lucky. If he actually planned on achieving that exact result, then he's either insane or a future Protoss bonjwa. Sage's DT play today though, looked pretty stable, and not particularly easy to hardcounter. Especially in g2, preventing that third from going down would've required a considerable amount of units at a time when Zerg wants to be making only drones. The other difficulty is that a hatch-tech Zerg only has any mobility with speedlings, which get rolled by +1 Zealots at that point in the game. They're also very larvae-inefficient. And yeah, what Sage did was more stable I agree. Because if he can kill the spore, he warps 4 more DTs, if he can't, he just pickup the DTs in his warp prism and try elsewhere/try later. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On September 27 2011 04:17 MrCon wrote: Bel'shir beach is way better for protoss now that the natural has only one entrance. But yeah dual sight is crap. Should have been fixed the same way bel'shir was. For the "one overseer and Sage build would not work" it's not that simple : 1/ The current metagame doesn't involve an in-base overseer. If zerg has such an early overseer, it will be located in/near the protoss main. Assuming Sage was lucky because Lucky didn't have double detection in his main is going to far in theorycraftland. 2/ He had a spore in his main. When Tails killed Nestea, everyone was "but Tails was lucky Nestea didn't have a spore in his main". Now a zerg has a spore, and "but he was lucky he didn't have an overseer in addition to the spore". It's not that easy. And if it was, it would mean that zergs builds evolved into getting a spore everywhere + making overseer, which is already a win for protoss compared to current builds. So why are Protoss entitled to maps with lots of chokes so they can take expansions with impunity? We need more maps with 20% ZvP win rates like Daybreak? | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
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Zeroxk
Norway1244 Posts
On September 27 2011 04:48 sitromit wrote: So why are Protoss entitled to maps with lots of chokes so they can take expansions with impunity? We need more maps with 20% ZvP win rates like Daybreak? Why are you citing a map that was only introduced this season and there's only been 13 ZvP games played on it | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On September 27 2011 04:48 sitromit wrote: So why are Protoss entitled to maps with lots of chokes so they can take expansions with impunity? We need more maps with 20% ZvP win rates like Daybreak? Bleh. So Daybreak with its 22% ZvP winrate is not ok but Dual Sight with its 28% PvZ is ? | ||
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