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On September 26 2011 22:37 poorcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 22:29 Zealot Lord wrote:On September 26 2011 22:10 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 26 2011 20:57 Benzzro wrote:On September 26 2011 20:48 Probe1 wrote:
When jumping to defend MC consider the tense you are writing in. Sure I completely agree with every compliment there is about MC back in the day. Well people are being hypocritical, they're saying Sage is the next Protoss hero and results don't matter, when everyone is calling MC shit just because he hasn't been posting results lately, pretty sure Sage hasn't even qualified for the GSL yet? Didn't he get a free spot in Code A or something? Not saying he doesn't deserve, he's easily one of the best Protoss in the world. MC still holds one of the highest win/loss ratio for a Protoss on the KR ladder, I'm sure we'll be seeing him again soon enough Oh my god nothing angers me more than this. Artosis didn't know what the fuck he was talking about on State of the Game and gave out this piece of nonsense, now everyone is believing it. He didn't even know Sage had qualified, and he thinks he is in touch with the Korean scene. Sage qualified from Code B fair and square, beating ST_Ace to get in. Look it up. yeah~ I really don't know how to phrase this without sounding sarcastic, but is there a possibility that tastosis might be losing a bit of their passion for SC2 (or GSL)? I mean, they still sound enthusiastic and such casting code S games, but its clear they don't follow GSL as closely as they once did, and that makes me a bit sad =( I realize they don't cast even half of the GSL games now, still, I feel like they could spend more time following the scene closer - its quite obvious that they don't pay much attention to code A/up&down matches. I liked it more back when Tastosis knew pretty much all the players in GSL, they would be able to talk about different players play styles, the up & comers and such; which they don't/can't anymore for some of the lesser known players. Well to be honest i agree. I find wolf or maybe even doatrap (shockingly i know) knows more about all the new korean up & comers compared to tastosis.
They are mainly casting code a so I don't think that's a huge shock.
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On September 26 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:
I feel the need to defend MC against some people. You seem to forget that people everywhere were complaining about the Protoss race being OP solely because of MC. Zergs and terrans (and protosses) were scared to play against him. Those were the days. During that time he was so far ahead of everyone else playing the game. What people focused on with MC were his timing attacks off of two base, but what they didn't notice was that MC was expanding behind those attacks most games, especially vs Zerg. It wasn't his fault that July could never hold his timings for long enough so that the observer would go back to MC's side and see him with his 3 bases. He played the game the way he thought was his best chance to win, and win he did.
But for all he did to advance the protoss race, he helped zergs and terrans just as much, if not more! By showcasing just how powerful Toss timings could be at such an early stage in the game, he put pressure on the other races to develop ways to stop them. Compare it to the discovery of muta micro in BroodWar TvZ. That made terrans so much better at controlling their marines to defend against such a potent threat. MCs imba forcefields and blink stalkers forced the other races to evolve much more quickly than if MC was not around. He singlehandedly advanced the game much farther than I bet even Blizzard expected in the first year. He may be doing poorly at the moment, but that doesn't mean he's a one trick pony. He will be back, and he will show us all more amazing things.
That said I am really enjoying watching Sage, HerO, and JYP innovate. They are making toss fun to watch again!
The point in your first paragraph is accurate- he didn't WIN off 2 base. He just put himself in such a superior position that he could get a deathball after a timing. Either way it shows reliance on timings to win. I think MC does have the talent to come back, yeah, but it's going to require a lot of work and changes to his playstyle. What his previous run showed is that he can win off timings, but it's not enough to build a lasting reign like Nestea has.
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On September 26 2011 20:58 Toadvine wrote:
As awesome as these games were to watch, I'm still not sure whether they represent a consistent way of playing the matchup, or just another 2 base gimmick that will be figured out shortly. For example the mass DT drop would've been instantly shot down by lucky having units in place to defend it.
What he did in g2 looks a lot more promising. In principle it's similar to the Zealot/Phoenix harass we saw from nshs protosses a few weeks ago, except it uses DTs instead of Stargate units. That's a good idea, because while Zerg has both Queens and Spores for early anti-air, they only have Spores for detection before Lair, which 3 hatch builds get very late. The main problem I see is if the Zerg actually makes some Roaches early and plays very safe, the Protoss followup is kind of awkward.
That's exactly the point, though. Let's say you do make some roaches and play safe. Guess what: you just threw away any chance of getting ahead economically vs a FFE. And you can't attack because you have no mobile detection and he can warp in defensive DTs.
The fast third vs FFE only works if you can get more econ and start pumping units, in that order. If you have to make units before ramping up your economy, you end up trying to ramp up economy right when he pushes out, and you won't have enough to stop him.
In a sense, this is all fine: the right answer to greedy play probably shouldn't be 'even greedier play'. The question in my mind is: can Zerg do anything else? Zerg's party-piece is its economy, after all.
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On September 26 2011 22:34 dooraven wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 22:32 Asha` wrote:On September 26 2011 22:21 Maghetti wrote:
One thing that confuses me though is Sages overall record. He has played pretty much nothing but great opponents but he has more losses then you would expect from the level of play he has shown in both the team league and now code A. Is it the format? Has he gotten better? Luck in code a and team league or bad luck in the online tournaments? I don't get it. I even watched some of those games vs puma where he looked amazing then too. His KR weeklies have been characterised by a lot of funky play (an almost religious devotion to trying to make a FE work in PvP for instance). It's my uninformed opinion that he experiments a lot, but that in serious tournament play he breaks out the things that he's got tried and tested properly. Yeah I kept facepalming whenever I saw him 1 gate FE in PvP ><, he also likes to cheese in PvP a lot too.
His record in actual LAN tournaments is 15-4 where his record in the only other place we have seen him, the weeklys he is 17-20.
In LAN he is 8-1 vs zerg, 7-3 vs terran, and no games vs protoss(though in qualifiers he went 6-3 vs toss).
In weekly he is 4-7 vs zerg, 8-8 vs terran, and 5-6 vs protoss. Extremely different records.
That is an 80% winrate in the GSL! 46% in the weeklys(only other place we have seen his play).
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On September 26 2011 22:07 nokz88 wrote:
These guys insulting MC are fair weather fans AKA bandwagonners.
A true Protoss fan would cheer for the new champion, while acknowledging the giants whose shoulders they stand on. I mean, what would have been iloveoov without Boxer? or Fantasy without these two?
MC did so much for his race, and so much more for the foreign community its a shame he's been getting so much shit when he needs support the most.
Go Sage btw!
No one's insulting MC from a personal standpoint, people are looking at the games he's played and his playstyle and criticizing that. No one is saying that MC didn't achieve great things, just that the way he did it is no longer relevant and I would argue somewhat damaging to Toss, since everyone saw how successful MC was with his timings/risky play and imitated him, then got collectively boned as a race once T and Z started figuring out that playstyle.
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On September 26 2011 22:01 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 20:57 Benzzro wrote:On September 26 2011 20:48 Probe1 wrote:
When jumping to defend MC consider the tense you are writing in. Sure I completely agree with every compliment there is about MC back in the day. Well people are being hypocritical, they're saying Sage is the next Protoss hero and results don't matter, when everyone is calling MC shit just because he hasn't been posting results lately, pretty sure Sage hasn't even qualified for the GSL yet? Didn't he get a free spot in Code A or something? Not saying he doesn't deserve, he's easily one of the best Protoss in the world. MC still holds one of the highest win/loss ratio for a Protoss on the KR ladder, I'm sure we'll be seeing him again soon enough I'm calling MC shit because his games are no longer impressive. He innovated a lot of new timings, and that was good enough to make Toss look OP for a couple months, but now that everyone's figured out his 4/6/8 gate timings he has nothing to fall back on. His style was impressive while it lasted but it wasn't going to last for long or be that impressive. I think MC will continue to look bad until he figures out how to win based on strats that aren't timings.
How do you separate good Starcraft from good timings? What are you even trying to say?
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On September 26 2011 23:14 how2TL wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 22:01 DystopiaX wrote:On September 26 2011 20:57 Benzzro wrote:On September 26 2011 20:48 Probe1 wrote:
When jumping to defend MC consider the tense you are writing in. Sure I completely agree with every compliment there is about MC back in the day. Well people are being hypocritical, they're saying Sage is the next Protoss hero and results don't matter, when everyone is calling MC shit just because he hasn't been posting results lately, pretty sure Sage hasn't even qualified for the GSL yet? Didn't he get a free spot in Code A or something? Not saying he doesn't deserve, he's easily one of the best Protoss in the world. MC still holds one of the highest win/loss ratio for a Protoss on the KR ladder, I'm sure we'll be seeing him again soon enough I'm calling MC shit because his games are no longer impressive. He innovated a lot of new timings, and that was good enough to make Toss look OP for a couple months, but now that everyone's figured out his 4/6/8 gate timings he has nothing to fall back on. His style was impressive while it lasted but it wasn't going to last for long or be that impressive. I think MC will continue to look bad until he figures out how to win based on strats that aren't timings. How do you separate good Starcraft from good timings? What are you even trying to say?
Never said it was bad SC, just that people figured it out and that's why MC is losing, and won't come back until he either comes up with new timings (which would help with short term success at best) or change his playstyle so that it's more "solid".
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United States97277 Posts
These results are pretty expected for the most part. The only one that surprised me was Oz > Jyp. I liquibetted sC, but I'm not shocked to see Gumiho take the win.
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Wow! Sage watched Whitera's stream to get ideas how to beat zerg. WhiteRa total boss. lol
Sage interview - translated by milkis
- Q:
Your 8 Dark Templar Drop was impressive in Game 1.
A:
I have fun reading the strategies posted in the strategy forum in a community site. I heard that there's a foreign player, White-Ra, who uses 8 DT drops to destroy hatcheries. So I kept watching White-Ra's live streams but he didn't use it once. So it's a build that is optimized through me. I used builds that are akin to this, but I conceived today's build from White-Ra's build. But I've never seen him use this build [laugh]
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On September 26 2011 23:24 Shellshock1122 wrote:
These results are pretty expected for the most part. The only one that surprised me was Oz > Jyp. I liquibetted sC, but I'm not shocked to see Gumiho take the win.
Yeah the Oz vs JYP was surprising given JYP's PvP winrate and Oz's lack of PvP wins.
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
Q:
Anything else you want to say?
A:
[generic stuff]. I offer today's Dark Templar build as a sacrifice to oGsInca
Hahahaha I died laughing <3
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On September 26 2011 22:59 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:
I feel the need to defend MC against some people. You seem to forget that people everywhere were complaining about the Protoss race being OP solely because of MC. Zergs and terrans (and protosses) were scared to play against him. Those were the days. During that time he was so far ahead of everyone else playing the game. What people focused on with MC were his timing attacks off of two base, but what they didn't notice was that MC was expanding behind those attacks most games, especially vs Zerg. It wasn't his fault that July could never hold his timings for long enough so that the observer would go back to MC's side and see him with his 3 bases. He played the game the way he thought was his best chance to win, and win he did.
But for all he did to advance the protoss race, he helped zergs and terrans just as much, if not more! By showcasing just how powerful Toss timings could be at such an early stage in the game, he put pressure on the other races to develop ways to stop them. Compare it to the discovery of muta micro in BroodWar TvZ. That made terrans so much better at controlling their marines to defend against such a potent threat. MCs imba forcefields and blink stalkers forced the other races to evolve much more quickly than if MC was not around. He singlehandedly advanced the game much farther than I bet even Blizzard expected in the first year. He may be doing poorly at the moment, but that doesn't mean he's a one trick pony. He will be back, and he will show us all more amazing things.
That said I am really enjoying watching Sage, HerO, and JYP innovate. They are making toss fun to watch again! The point in your first paragraph is accurate- he didn't WIN off 2 base. He just put himself in such a superior position that he could get a deathball after a timing. Either way it shows reliance on timings to win. I think MC does have the talent to come back, yeah, but it's going to require a lot of work and changes to his playstyle. What his previous run showed is that he can win off timings, but it's not enough to build a lasting reign like Nestea has.
The thing is that everything relies on timings. Even Sage used timings to snipe the lair in the first game and the third in the second game. Timing will never become irrelevant in SC2. Back when MC was winning with his timings, it was definitely not risky play, because that's what worked at the time. It was riskier at that time to let a zerg sit back and relax, since then they would be sure to hit their injects on time.
Nowadays, Zergs hit their injects no matter what (unless you kill the queen  ), and those old timings don't work as well anymore. And MC has not adjusted as well as he could have, that is indeed true. But having a playstyle that relies on timings is something that every pro wants. It shows that he had a greater knowledge of the game at that point. Now tosses are coming up with new timings, incorporating warp prisms and such, and it is great. With enough threats, it keeps zerg honest, and that is the important part. Now that tosses are beginning to find ways of getting to the mid game on par with zerg again, they are beginning to have more strategies available to them, and that's where the game gets interesting.
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cool play by sage. hope he wins.
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This was always the problem with the Protoss race; in fighting, civil war... everything that comes with the ability to make decisions for themselves lol... we should stop all this banter on Sage vs. MC... there's no silver bullet... Protoss have to create a line-up of top players (or atleast three)... Zerg's have NesTea, Losira, DRG and a few others just below... Terran has MVP, MMA, Bomber, Ryung, MKP... and the list goes on... in his height, there was no-one near MC... not Anypro, San, Tester, Genius... no-one. MC has to be credited for everything his done for the race (and how he plays with foreigners just for show)... yes the game is evolving but you can't deny the strats, timings and micro-brilliance MC gave the Protoss race. We can't be going around looking for a Protoss Messiah, Aiur has to develope a field of players we can be proud of, those who could match-up with their equals in other races.
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I have never seen Protoss playing so aggresive before as Sage did. Dem nerdchillz.
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thank god there not gonna be a TvT final this time.
My prediction is Sage vs Curious Final
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The problem for MC is not really a timing problem imo. It's just he doesn't play well anymore.
Can you imagine the "old" MC letting lings runby in his main several times in the same game ? Or the "old" MC missing forcefields ?
No. The "old" MC just warped a zealot to block his entrance and insta dropped 4 forcefields to kill everything without taking damage. I'm not sure if he's slacking in practice, if it's his girlfriend who takes a lot of his time, but currently he just doesn't play well enough to be in code A.
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EPT
