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Balance whine equals ban; good posting equals happy community and moderator |
On September 07 2011 19:27 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 19:22 NewteN wrote:
So tired of this 'all-in' term. MC on two bases and pulled no probes. WTF You're just an idiot if you don't think that was all-in. Well executed and effective, yes. All in? no fucking doubt about it.
I'm pretty sick of that term being used to describe every single timing attack as well.
Shit I'm sick of people using timing attack to mean anything as well.
And don't get me started on the term metagame..
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On September 07 2011 19:28 nougdp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 19:23 skrzmark wrote:On September 07 2011 19:20 MrCon wrote:
6 gates and non stop VR production, pylon on the low ground and dozen zealots warped in the high ground. is this a rebecca black reference at all? Who is Rebeca Black?
Like a 13 year old girl who made a terrible song called "friday" but it is still somewhat catchy.
Cmon, some one has to know what I was thinking...
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If he had an overlord watching that corner of his base that would not have been possible -_-
Think about how much more effective that was since MC had free time to not only setup those pylons uncontested but also wait for 2 full warpins before engaging.
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On September 07 2011 19:25 kusto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 19:23 Whiteman103 wrote:On September 07 2011 19:22 NewteN wrote:
So tired of this 'all-in' term. MC on two bases and pulled no probes. WTF ROFL 4 gate is a all in and you dont pull probes You can transition out of a 4gate quite often.
only if you do damage, which in that case the all-in somewhat served its purpose
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On September 07 2011 19:22 Hall0wed wrote:
Finally a decent stargate build. Protoss can't play straight up with stargate against zerg early on or else they lose.
"finally"?  ) this build is fkin half-year old as well as blink stalker sentry drop
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On September 07 2011 19:24 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 19:22 Brett wrote:On September 07 2011 19:15 Dommk wrote:On September 07 2011 19:13 Brett wrote:On September 07 2011 19:10 Dommk wrote:On September 07 2011 19:08 Brett wrote:On September 07 2011 18:50 Heavenly wrote:On September 07 2011 18:47 roymarthyup wrote:
theres nothing wrong with 2basing against a fast 3rd zerg, but MC did it highly wrong
theres nothing wrong with 2basing against losiras fast third, you just gotta do it right and use the power of collossi to take your third at around the 10 minute mark. im high masters. Cool qualifications, MC is two time GSL champion and the highest earning player in the world. So what? MC played that poorly. It happens and you dont need to be a champion to understand or criticise obviously bad play. If it was something as simple as taking a faster third then why WOULDN'T he do that? The guy isn't stupid, he is still without doubt the best Protoss in Korea right now, his mechanics are amazing and he must practice with the best of the best. He isn't stupid. Did you notice I never said the kid's analysis was correct? Did I say MC was stupid? However, the fact is, MC played that game poorly. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise this fact. You can't just pass of him playing poorly as a fact, it doesn't work that way. What did he do poorly? What should he have done that you see other Protoss's do? You could say he did poorly, but I've yet to see a single Protoss do better than he has right now. Which is concerning nonetheless Make every single tech path on two bases? Build void/phoenix in reasonably large numbers and do zero damage with them as Losira takes multiple bases... Then proceed to throw his poorly constructed unit composition against a higher supply enemy with no hope of reinforcing at the same rate? I don't know if MC would have won the game even if he played 100%. But that doesn't change the fact that he made a number of mistakes in that match. How is chargelot/archon/colossi a bad unit composition versus what was essentially mass ling before roaches start to come out right before along with corruptors? You see every single thing both people make down to the last drone, MC does not.
See point one.
Every tech path on two base vs mass expanding zerg to whom you have done no damage is not a good idea. You cannot support those tech paths and create the size of army you need to compete with zerg in a clash in the middle of the map.
Edit: Particularly after giving Losira that kind of freedom to mass drone because he used predictable void/phoenix.
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This is what I love about toss like MC HerO and Naniwa: They want to WIN. Not to always entertain the fans by only doing macro games, rather they're abusive and will do an allin if they have to or if they get the chance and they decide that they can win.
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On September 07 2011 19:27 AznRyoga wrote:
Well, imo this borderlines on an all in. He would've needed the 6 gates to do a good amount of damage. If it did minimal damage, mc would've been rather far behind imo, but its pvz, p almost always play from behind economically anyways.
Who cares? Kyrix took a third, make extremely delayed spores, teched to roach/hydra, and didnt even build nay units until the attack came. If Kyrix hadn't been playing like that and held it off MC would have still be in a fine position as long as he retained his voidrays. Just because someone isn't constantly producing probes doesn't make it an all-in. When a zerg cuts drones to pump out army for specific timings that's not an all-in. He did a timing attack while +1 was finishing and cut probes for more units, not an "all-in".
On September 07 2011 19:29 Brett wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 19:24 Heavenly wrote:On September 07 2011 19:22 Brett wrote:On September 07 2011 19:15 Dommk wrote:On September 07 2011 19:13 Brett wrote:On September 07 2011 19:10 Dommk wrote:On September 07 2011 19:08 Brett wrote:On September 07 2011 18:50 Heavenly wrote:On September 07 2011 18:47 roymarthyup wrote:
theres nothing wrong with 2basing against a fast 3rd zerg, but MC did it highly wrong
theres nothing wrong with 2basing against losiras fast third, you just gotta do it right and use the power of collossi to take your third at around the 10 minute mark. im high masters. Cool qualifications, MC is two time GSL champion and the highest earning player in the world. So what? MC played that poorly. It happens and you dont need to be a champion to understand or criticise obviously bad play. If it was something as simple as taking a faster third then why WOULDN'T he do that? The guy isn't stupid, he is still without doubt the best Protoss in Korea right now, his mechanics are amazing and he must practice with the best of the best. He isn't stupid. Did you notice I never said the kid's analysis was correct? Did I say MC was stupid? However, the fact is, MC played that game poorly. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise this fact. You can't just pass of him playing poorly as a fact, it doesn't work that way. What did he do poorly? What should he have done that you see other Protoss's do? You could say he did poorly, but I've yet to see a single Protoss do better than he has right now. Which is concerning nonetheless Make every single tech path on two bases? Build void/phoenix in reasonably large numbers and do zero damage with them as Losira takes multiple bases... Then proceed to throw his poorly constructed unit composition against a higher supply enemy with no hope of reinforcing at the same rate? I don't know if MC would have won the game even if he played 100%. But that doesn't change the fact that he made a number of mistakes in that match. How is chargelot/archon/colossi a bad unit composition versus what was essentially mass ling before roaches start to come out right before along with corruptors? You see every single thing both people make down to the last drone, MC does not. See point one. Every tech path on two base vs mass expanding zerg to whom you have done no damage is not a good idea. You cannot support those tech paths and create the size of army you need to compete with zerg in a clash in the middle of the map.
See last point. You see every single thing Losira does to the last drone and roaches in production. MC does not. He saw mass ling and I don't recall if he scouted an infestation pit or not but I thought Losira had one. In which case he is dead if some infestors come out so he needs templar to combat them. He would not have won with the 150 gas for the twilight council and the 300 gas for an archon put into other things, so him getting it doesn't matter at all.
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So glad to see protoss winning and mc winning!!
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does head to head break the tie in this format?
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On September 07 2011 19:29 -orb- wrote:
If he had an overlord watching that corner of his base that would not have been possible -_-
Think about how much more effective that was since MC had free time to not only setup those pylons uncontested but also wait for 2 full warpins before engaging.
VRs can hit air.
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On September 07 2011 19:23 ragnorr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 19:22 NewteN wrote:
So tired of this 'all-in' term. MC on two bases and pulled no probes. WTF he cut probes at 34, had no tech and 6 gates. Hes all in(if it dint work, he would have lost). All in is a term that dont require you to pull workers, but a tactic that if you lose the attack, you lose the game
It's retarded is what it is. This is MC, not some bronze leaguer who's somehow going to not do enough damage with 11 +1 zealots, a sentry for ramp and 3-4 VRs for him to outright lose the game if it doesn't win right then and there. MAYBE Kyrix holds, but how the F is he going to win if MC loses 11 lots/sent and probably saves 2-3 VRs???
No tech? He's up to +1 and a Stargate? He's walled. I seriously have no idea why this is cheese or all-in.
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On September 07 2011 19:28 dc302 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 19:26 Medrea wrote:On September 07 2011 19:23 ragnorr wrote:On September 07 2011 19:22 NewteN wrote:
So tired of this 'all-in' term. MC on two bases and pulled no probes. WTF he cut probes at 34, had no tech and 6 gates. Hes all in(if it dint work, he would have lost). All in is a term that dont require you to pull workers, but a tactic that if you lose the attack, you lose the game 2 bases supports more than 6 gates especially when making zealots and he had a stargate, which is tech. He was gonna do damage with that strategy no matter what. I agree that it's not an all in, but i think the point was that 6 gates is only just sutainable for 34 probes, its not like he had 2 full saturated bases. Also, a stargate is tech but not a LOT of tech. Stargate doesn't really help much in the mid-late game (unless you have colossi etc), so I'd say tech is more like upgrades, and especially a robo for detection.
Right, but I am sure if the pylon shenanigans was scouted he would have just picked up and went home and expanded or went robo. 2 colossus attack is also popular, but we saw that fail last game.
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Russian Federation823 Posts
On September 07 2011 19:26 Oktyabr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 19:25 kusto wrote:On September 07 2011 19:23 Whiteman103 wrote:On September 07 2011 19:22 NewteN wrote:
So tired of this 'all-in' term. MC on two bases and pulled no probes. WTF ROFL 4 gate is a all in and you dont pull probes You can transition out of a 4gate quite often. And be very far behind if you don't deal enough damage to justify the 4 gate, hence the term all-in. Unless we're referring to PvP, where 4 gate was a staple opening.
No. To hold a 4gate, you need to make units, or else you die. It also delays your expansion (TvP) on many maps. Of course if you see a couple of repaired bunkers you feign continuing aggression, and take an expo yourself, while T is overpreparing.
Go watch HongUn games, he does this often and wins comfortably in a macro game.
About PvZ, it is similar because larvae is even more precious than terran units.
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On September 07 2011 19:22 NewteN wrote:
So tired of this 'all-in' term. MC on two bases and pulled no probes. WTF
although I agree lots of people use the term all in in the wrong way, you do not seem to understand the game really well.. you are wrong.
in this case it was clearly an all-in.
you can definitely all-in off 2 base.
2 bases != you can't all in.
he cut probes at 34 and made 6 gates and a stargate.
if his attack failed he had NOTHING to fall back on, no tech, no economy, nothing.
an all in is something that if fails, does not allow you to have any kind of transition.
it's really similar to the same strategy protoss do vs T. the 2 base 6 (or 7) gate all-in.
if it works, great. if the terran holds, usually he will hit you few mins later with upgrades, stim, shields and meds and... vs pure gateway army that's basically an automatic win
edit: i actually love this strategy and gonna try it on ladder :D
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On September 07 2011 19:23 benjammin wrote:
how's that mc quote go? you drone drone drone...
Read my sig, tho its very old one
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On September 07 2011 19:30 Mios wrote:
does head to head break the tie in this format?
I believe so. If MC and Losira have the same record and are tied for 2nd, Losira will advance and MC will get 3rd.
Hypothetically speaking of course.
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On September 07 2011 19:30 KimJongChill wrote:
So glad to see protoss winning and mc winning!!
justice has come! LOL
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On September 07 2011 19:26 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 19:23 ragnorr wrote:On September 07 2011 19:22 NewteN wrote:
So tired of this 'all-in' term. MC on two bases and pulled no probes. WTF he cut probes at 34, had no tech and 6 gates. Hes all in(if it dint work, he would have lost). All in is a term that dont require you to pull workers, but a tactic that if you lose the attack, you lose the game 2 bases supports more than 6 gates especially when making zealots and he had a stargate, which is tech. He was gonna do damage with that strategy no matter what.
There are so many things to scout for in this push.
The Stargate, the multiple Void rays (no Phoenix), the lack of probes on the second base, the probe moving out, the forge upgrading, the pylons, the 6 gates, the units WARPING directly into your main etc.
Kyrix just totally failed and had pretty much zero units at the point of the attack.
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EPT
