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On August 25 2011 12:23 BlueHydra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:20 LicH. wrote:On August 25 2011 12:16 BlueHydra wrote:On August 25 2011 12:14 Jinivus wrote:On August 25 2011 12:08 BlueHydra wrote: LOL why are all these people talking about outclassing destiny? All major did was early timing pushes, give me a break. destiny won the macro game, which was the first, major saw he couldnt beat him in a macro game so he does early strong terran pushes that any zerg loses to, and if ur a zerg, you would know that any zerg can lose to them, just ask idra. Lets say Major can only win with timing pushes, but Destiny can only win by turling to infestor/broodlord on shattered temple. I think we both know which takes more skill :/ Are you implying that late game TvZ takes less skill than early game timing pushes? i hope thats a joke.. Also, turtling? his play is hardly turtling. if thats turtling i dont know what you would call manas pvz. if 2 base infestor broodlord isn't turtling then I don't know what is. You've obviously never played against destiny yourself What do you suggest all zergs do before mutas are up, or broodlord/infestor?
You're kidding yourself if you think that Major needed to gimmick his way to a victory. Being 30+ supply up on a zerg BEFORE a timing hits? Give me a break man. And none of those early aggressions were all in at all, quite the opposite in fact. You just come across as a really ignorant fanboy making outlandish comments to the effect that Major couldn't beat Destiny in a macro game.
What more likely happened is that Major saw wholes in Destiny's early to midgame that he could exploit, and then he did.
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On August 25 2011 12:07 PoopLord wrote: Destiny loses and immediately gets placed against Tarson in 1v1 lol...
And he just stomped Tarson too ^^ That was an amaaaaaazing game
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3-1 major haha
looks like my prediction was right
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Let me guess, destiny did a infestor two base, all four games?
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nicely done by major, I really hope to see them once again, but this time, having more macro games :/
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On August 25 2011 12:51 OscarN wrote: Let me guess, destiny did a infestor two base, all four games?
*tried to do two base infestor :D
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On August 25 2011 12:03 BlueHydra wrote:Outclass? he just did early game pushes that every zerg has trouble with.
It's true that terran early game all-in pushes can be very hard to deal with, but that wasn't the case here. These pushes were simply not all-in whatsoever. If destiny had a good defense, major simply would have slowly retreated back, and have a good economy behind it.
Let's look at the games.
In those games, he typically got his 3rd up and running while he pushed out. Major gets his 3rd up and running before Destiny gets a secure 3rd.
Suppose Destiny destroys the push, but trades resources at a 4:5 ratio. IE Destiny loses 4000 resources worth of units for every 5000 major loses in his push. What would the situation be then? Destiny would actually still be drastically behind. Major had 74 workers at the end of the last game. 74 is pretty much the most amount of workers you would ever want at once, especially as terran. Meanwhile, Destiny had far, far less workers.
Those pushes were very regular pressure pushes in a typical TvZ build. They are fundamental to playing TvZ in a heavy macro style. But, in those games, they ended the game.
It's not because Destiny is so bad he can't handle regular pressure builds. It's because Destiny was already far, far behind by the time the pushes came out. Destiny would need to crush that push in order to have a good chance to win the game.
So let's examine what happened earlier in the games, that caused Major to be at such an overwhelming advantage.
Specifically, let's look at the last build that Major does, which I am quite familiar with on both sides of the coin. Major opens with a hellion expand, which is a very good opening. In fact it's one of my favorite TvZ openings. You see, there are many different kinds of hellion openings for T. We've seen the Slayers terrans favor blue flame hellion openings with drop. There are bfh hellion openings with a heavy count of bfh. These builds typically try to inflict massive amounts of drone damage. At the very least, they need to inflict a decent amount of economic damage or force a large enough response to make the opening worth it. The reactor hellion opening, however, is a different breed. What typically happens is you build 2-6 hellions, which you will send out, and while they are out, you are getting your 2nd up and running. The CC is actually rather fast. An important trait about this build is that there isn't a heavy commitment that must be paid for with drone blood. So you build 4-6 hellions. Even if you just snipe a single drone, you are really in a good position. You are not behind if you fail to do economic damage, provided that you do not lose those hellions for free. Those 4-6 hellions are the price for map control. You will restrict creep spread past their nat. You will prevent their lings from having free reign over the map. You will force some kind of response, whether it is a spine crawler or more lings. In fact, without the spine crawler, you can probably pick off a few lings for free. Any economic damage you inflict is merely extra. The important point is to not commit your hellions unless you think you have a good chance of inflicting damage. And that was the position Major found himself in game 4. One big mistake Destiny was timing. He did build a spine crawler, but he didn't have a 2nd queen out, and in addition, the spine crawler was a few seconds too slow. Furthermore, he had a rather low initial ling count. A great way to deal with a reactor hellion is to have a one spinecrawler up, and a handful of speedlings and a queen along with it. Destiny only had 1 queen, and it was at his main. His lings, which, iirc, was something like 2 pairs, isn't enough to stop a hellion runby. A ling/spinecrawler defense against hellion runbies works by zoning them out. They can't attempt a runby because it becomes incredibly risky. Just a handful of lings will trap the hellions, impeding their movements. Just a couple seconds of delaying the hellions will do enough damage to the runby hellions to render them very manageable and simple to deal with. Roaches were used by Destiny in previous games, and may seem like an obvious solution, but roaches aren't the ideal counter, and, in fact, I think they're quite a poor counter. If you make 2 roaches to fend off 4 hellions, you're investing 200 minerals in a roach warren, AND 200 resources of roaches, which is equivalent to the 400 resources sunk in hellions, but you don't get any map control with those roaches, and hellions add more to terran midgame than zerg adds to zerg midgame. Another aspect to keep in mind is that to get the 2 roaches out for the hellion timing, you have to have the roach warren building rather early. At that stage of zerg's economy, the bottleneck for drone production is minerals. In fact, many zergs get an early creep tumor around that time because they have excess larva if they have 2 queens and 2 hatches. Wait just a bit longer, and it isn't so bad to throw down a last minute spine crawler. Destiny, you see, doesn't have a "standard" ZvT opener. The standard openers involve a fast zergling speed upgrade. This makes it much easier to deal with hellion and marine pressure. This also gives zerg an advantage in map control. This is because Destiny doesn't have a standard style of ZvT. As we all know, he likes heavy infestor play. He wants to get to the infestor phase as soon as possible, and it is there that he can be comfortable enough to get his 3rd, harass, inflict damage, defend, tech, and get set up for the fast broodlord/infestor push. You notice, in the games before the last game, Destiny delayed his zergling speed upgrade. There are a few very good reasons why standard ZvT involves a rather fast speed upgrade. For one, marine stutter step micro makes marines very efficient against slow zerglings. With speed upgrade, marines don't become super efficient against zerglings again until the unit counts gets bigger or until stim is available. Heavy marine pressure has very little risk for the terran player if the zerg has no speed upgrade. The zerg can't punish the terran for poking in with the marines, and the terran can poke in and get free units this way, unless zerg invests in a couple spines. And there are other good reasons for faster ling speed, such as reapers and hellions. Naturally, Major, who's regularly employed reaper and hellion openings in the past, sought fit to punish Destiny for this hole in his early game. The hellions and the reapers are not unusual builds. They would do quite fine against a standard ZvT build, even when the zerg player is fully prepared. If zerg gets late speed, however, they suddenly become very, very deadly. This explains a lot of why Destiny lost games 2 and 3. And the thing that absolutely convinced Destiny that he had to change his opening build game 4, was that Major didn't need to sacrifice anything significant for that capability. He was playing a TvZ build that is very solid and will match up just fine against a solid ZvT build. So Destiny had to adjust game 4 and get his speed upgrade earlier. However, his timings for the lings was a bit off and he took a lot of damage, putting him at a disadvantage. Major followed up his highly successful hellion harass with single banshee harass. This follow up is fairly popular and is rather macro oriented. The idea is that there is no tech cost for the banshee; everything necessary for banshee production is already there. The tech lab is going to be used for stim. The starport is going to be used for medivac production. But if you use the starport and the techlab for a short period, you only need to spend 150/100 for a banshee. This is 250 units of resources. A standard TvZ build doesn't need a heavy gas count at this period, so the gas cost isn't significant. The banshee goes out and can guarantee a couple of drone kills without dying. It is just a very minor harass, typically. The idea is that scv production is limited compared to zerg drone production. Shaving a couple drones here and there will add up, keeping the terran at an ok position against the zerg. Shave a bit more than needed with some good maneuvering and tactics, and then you're looking at a slight economic advantage against zerg. Furthermore, the single banshee isn't bad later on. It can continue harassment until mutalisks come out. If you keep it around, it does some nice dps, and it can delay a 3rd for a little bit. Banshee comes in, and Destiny only has one queen, with no creep spread between the main and nat. ZvT builds typically involve hatch-first with 2 early queens. You get enough energy to drop one creep tumor before you need to spend the rest of the energy for larva injects. That one creep tumor will make its way from the main, connect the natural, and then make its way out or, more usefully, connect creep towards a potential 3rd. For a map like tald'arim, you can get a nice creep spread to the 3rd by the time you want to take it, making it safer against harass. That main-to-nat creep connection is specifically for queens to defend against drops and banshees. Queens are actually very good AA units. Banshee harass and drop harass can be very deadly and difficult to deal with without this creep spread. Destiny had only one queen at his main, and no creep spread. That banshee harass turned from what typically is just minor, but steady harass, into something more significant. Along with all the drones lost to the hellions, the damage done by the banshee was devastating. By this time, it was Major's game to lose. So long as he didn't make any critical mistake, or get massively outplayed in some way, he was going to win the game.
Major's push was just him playing as he is supposed to. If it got defended, he would have several more shots left available.
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Whoa. Pretty long write-up ._.
What was the final score btw?
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On August 25 2011 13:47 YoiChiBow wrote: Whoa. Pretty long write-up ._.
What was the final score btw? + Show Spoiler +
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+ Show Spoiler +t's true that terran early game all-in pushes can be very hard to deal with, but that wasn't the case here. These pushes were simply not all-in whatsoever. If destiny had a good defense, major simply would have slowly retreated back, and have a good economy behind it.
Let's look at the games.
In those games, he typically got his 3rd up and running while he pushed out. Major gets his 3rd up and running before Destiny gets a secure 3rd.
Suppose Destiny destroys the push, but trades resources at a 4:5 ratio. IE Destiny loses 4000 resources worth of units for every 5000 major loses in his push. What would the situation be then? Destiny would actually still be drastically behind. Major had 74 workers at the end of the last game. 74 is pretty much the most amount of workers you would ever want at once, especially as terran. Meanwhile, Destiny had far, far less workers.
Those pushes were very regular pressure pushes in a typical TvZ build. They are fundamental to playing TvZ in a heavy macro style. But, in those games, they ended the game.
It's not because Destiny is so bad he can't handle regular pressure builds. It's because Destiny was already far, far behind by the time the pushes came out. Destiny would need to crush that push in order to have a good chance to win the game.
So let's examine what happened earlier in the games, that caused Major to be at such an overwhelming advantage.
Specifically, let's look at the last build that Major does, which I am quite familiar with on both sides of the coin. Major opens with a hellion expand, which is a very good opening. In fact it's one of my favorite TvZ openings. You see, there are many different kinds of hellion openings for T. We've seen the Slayers terrans favor blue flame hellion openings with drop. There are bfh hellion openings with a heavy count of bfh. These builds typically try to inflict massive amounts of drone damage. At the very least, they need to inflict a decent amount of economic damage or force a large enough response to make the opening worth it. The reactor hellion opening, however, is a different breed. What typically happens is you build 2-6 hellions, which you will send out, and while they are out, you are getting your 2nd up and running. The CC is actually rather fast. An important trait about this build is that there isn't a heavy commitment that must be paid for with drone blood. So you build 4-6 hellions. Even if you just snipe a single drone, you are really in a good position. You are not behind if you fail to do economic damage, provided that you do not lose those hellions for free. Those 4-6 hellions are the price for map control. You will restrict creep spread past their nat. You will prevent their lings from having free reign over the map. You will force some kind of response, whether it is a spine crawler or more lings. In fact, without the spine crawler, you can probably pick off a few lings for free. Any economic damage you inflict is merely extra. The important point is to not commit your hellions unless you think you have a good chance of inflicting damage. And that was the position Major found himself in game 4. One big mistake Destiny was timing. He did build a spine crawler, but he didn't have a 2nd queen out, and in addition, the spine crawler was a few seconds too slow. Furthermore, he had a rather low initial ling count. A great way to deal with a reactor hellion is to have a one spinecrawler up, and a handful of speedlings and a queen along with it. Destiny only had 1 queen, and it was at his main. His lings, which, iirc, was something like 2 pairs, isn't enough to stop a hellion runby. A ling/spinecrawler defense against hellion runbies works by zoning them out. They can't attempt a runby because it becomes incredibly risky. Just a handful of lings will trap the hellions, impeding their movements. Just a couple seconds of delaying the hellions will do enough damage to the runby hellions to render them very manageable and simple to deal with. Roaches were used by Destiny in previous games, and may seem like an obvious solution, but roaches aren't the ideal counter, and, in fact, I think they're quite a poor counter. If you make 2 roaches to fend off 4 hellions, you're investing 200 minerals in a roach warren, AND 200 resources of roaches, which is equivalent to the 400 resources sunk in hellions, but you don't get any map control with those roaches, and hellions add more to terran midgame than zerg adds to zerg midgame. Another aspect to keep in mind is that to get the 2 roaches out for the hellion timing, you have to have the roach warren building rather early. At that stage of zerg's economy, the bottleneck for drone production is minerals. In fact, many zergs get an early creep tumor around that time because they have excess larva if they have 2 queens and 2 hatches. Wait just a bit longer, and it isn't so bad to throw down a last minute spine crawler. Destiny, you see, doesn't have a "standard" ZvT opener. The standard openers involve a fast zergling speed upgrade. This makes it much easier to deal with hellion and marine pressure. This also gives zerg an advantage in map control. This is because Destiny doesn't have a standard style of ZvT. As we all know, he likes heavy infestor play. He wants to get to the infestor phase as soon as possible, and it is there that he can be comfortable enough to get his 3rd, harass, inflict damage, defend, tech, and get set up for the fast broodlord/infestor push. You notice, in the games before the last game, Destiny delayed his zergling speed upgrade. There are a few very good reasons why standard ZvT involves a rather fast speed upgrade. For one, marine stutter step micro makes marines very efficient against slow zerglings. With speed upgrade, marines don't become super efficient against zerglings again until the unit counts gets bigger or until stim is available. Heavy marine pressure has very little risk for the terran player if the zerg has no speed upgrade. The zerg can't punish the terran for poking in with the marines, and the terran can poke in and get free units this way, unless zerg invests in a couple spines. And there are other good reasons for faster ling speed, such as reapers and hellions. Naturally, Major, who's regularly employed reaper and hellion openings in the past, sought fit to punish Destiny for this hole in his early game. The hellions and the reapers are not unusual builds. They would do quite fine against a standard ZvT build, even when the zerg player is fully prepared. If zerg gets late speed, however, they suddenly become very, very deadly. This explains a lot of why Destiny lost games 2 and 3. And the thing that absolutely convinced Destiny that he had to change his opening build game 4, was that Major didn't need to sacrifice anything significant for that capability. He was playing a TvZ build that is very solid and will match up just fine against a solid ZvT build. So Destiny had to adjust game 4 and get his speed upgrade earlier. However, his timings for the lings was a bit off and he took a lot of damage, putting him at a disadvantage. Major followed up his highly successful hellion harass with single banshee harass. This follow up is fairly popular and is rather macro oriented. The idea is that there is no tech cost for the banshee; everything necessary for banshee production is already there. The tech lab is going to be used for stim. The starport is going to be used for medivac production. But if you use the starport and the techlab for a short period, you only need to spend 150/100 for a banshee. This is 250 units of resources. A standard TvZ build doesn't need a heavy gas count at this period, so the gas cost isn't significant. The banshee goes out and can guarantee a couple of drone kills without dying. It is just a very minor harass, typically. The idea is that scv production is limited compared to zerg drone production. Shaving a couple drones here and there will add up, keeping the terran at an ok position against the zerg. Shave a bit more than needed with some good maneuvering and tactics, and then you're looking at a slight economic advantage against zerg. Furthermore, the single banshee isn't bad later on. It can continue harassment until mutalisks come out. If you keep it around, it does some nice dps, and it can delay a 3rd for a little bit. Banshee comes in, and Destiny only has one queen, with no creep spread between the main and nat. ZvT builds typically involve hatch-first with 2 early queens. You get enough energy to drop one creep tumor before you need to spend the rest of the energy for larva injects. That one creep tumor will make its way from the main, connect the natural, and then make its way out or, more usefully, connect creep towards a potential 3rd. For a map like tald'arim, you can get a nice creep spread to the 3rd by the time you want to take it, making it safer against harass. That main-to-nat creep connection is specifically for queens to defend against drops and banshees. Queens are actually very good AA units. Banshee harass and drop harass can be very deadly and difficult to deal with without this creep spread. Destiny had only one queen at his main, and no creep spread. That banshee harass turned from what typically is just minor, but steady harass, into something more significant. Along with all the drones lost to the hellions, the damage done by the banshee was devastating. By this time, it was Major's game to lose. So long as he didn't make any critical mistake, or get massively outplayed in some way, he was going to win the game.
Major's push was just him playing as he is supposed to. If it got defended, he would have several more shots left available.
Been a while since I've seen a quality post about a series in the SC2 forums.
Major's just a levels above Destiny. Major's one of the notable foreign progamers, famous for practicing hard and his mechanics, whereas Destiny, although his stream and playstyle is entertaining, is just a high-level ladder player and haven't shown important results in major tournaments yet. While I think Destiny could improve to become a major player in tournaments, he still needs more refinement IMO.
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I don't think that I've ever heard more asinine comments from a "pro" than what I heard on Destiny's stream tonight.
He said that he doesn't think that he should go one build and his opponent can go one build and he automatically loses because of the build choice. Um...are you serious? That's what a strategy game is. Why does he think that players have to know multiple builds? This isn't an RPG where you level up one build and grow it continuously and the person with the best build wins. Wagering chances and incorporating scouting is all part of STRATEGY. What he's describing is the antithesis of strategy.
He said that with his infestor build (the only build he every really does) he could win every time if he had maphack against the terran. Um...the ability to ingame transition on the fly and scout is all part of the build you do. You have to weigh the strengths and weaknesses of everything and the revelation that your LATEGAME build could win if you knew what kind of early game exploit he is going to punish you with is pretty fucking obvious.
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I figured it was pretty obvious Major was a better player than Destiny. gg wp etc.
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On August 25 2011 14:50 wats0n wrote: I don't think that I've ever heard more asinine comments from a "pro" than what I heard on Destiny's stream tonight.
He said that he doesn't think that he should go one build and his opponent can go one build and he automatically loses because of the build choice. Um...are you serious? That's what a strategy game is. Why does he think that players have to know multiple builds? This isn't an RPG where you level up one build and grow it continuously and the person with the best build wins. Wagering chances and incorporating scouting is all part of STRATEGY. What he's describing is the antithesis of strategy.
He said that with his infestor build (the only build he every really does) he could win every time if he had maphack against the terran. Um...the ability to ingame transition on the fly and scout is all part of the build you do. You have to weigh the strengths and weaknesses of everything and the revelation that your LATEGAME build could win if you knew what kind of early game exploit he is going to punish you with is pretty fucking obvious.
All he said is that his build is solid.
He's saying his build doesn't have BO losses, which I think is the correct assumption to have when you're coming up with your own strategy. You want to try to adapt based on what you can scout, you don't want to throw out an entire build immediately just because you found a certain variation hard. You want to be able to find a way to compete with that variation in the realm of still using your strategy.
Actually what YOU'VE said is the antithesis of strategy. Strategy is all about trying to solve the game, which implies that there's 1 best way to play, and you can play that way every single game, like a float chart that may have variations based on what your opponent is doing, but it's still the same flow chart, and for this you obviously need to scout.
What you're talking about isn't strategy it's just a game of rock paper scissors.
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Destiny;s problem with his build is that it doesn't get the infestor out for a while, which is one of the only two units that can handle large clumps of marines. The other ofcourse is the baneling, but with his infestor build he doesnt get them and so is vulnerable to early marine agression, because all he has are 1/1 lings, and usually the attack hits before the upgrades finish
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On August 25 2011 14:59 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 14:50 wats0n wrote: I don't think that I've ever heard more asinine comments from a "pro" than what I heard on Destiny's stream tonight.
He said that he doesn't think that he should go one build and his opponent can go one build and he automatically loses because of the build choice. Um...are you serious? That's what a strategy game is. Why does he think that players have to know multiple builds? This isn't an RPG where you level up one build and grow it continuously and the person with the best build wins. Wagering chances and incorporating scouting is all part of STRATEGY. What he's describing is the antithesis of strategy.
He said that with his infestor build (the only build he every really does) he could win every time if he had maphack against the terran. Um...the ability to ingame transition on the fly and scout is all part of the build you do. You have to weigh the strengths and weaknesses of everything and the revelation that your LATEGAME build could win if you knew what kind of early game exploit he is going to punish you with is pretty fucking obvious. All he said is that his build is solid. He's saying his build doesn't have BO losses, which I think is the correct assumption to have when you're coming up with your own strategy. You want to try to adapt based on what you can scout, you don't want to throw out an entire build immediately just because you found a certain variation hard. You want to be able to find a way to compete with that variation in the realm of still using your strategy. Actually what YOU'VE said is the antithesis of strategy. Strategy is all about trying to solve the game, which implies that there's 1 best way to play, and you can play that way every single game, like a float chart that may have variations based on what your opponent is doing, but it's still the same flow chart, and for this you obviously need to scout. What you're talking about isn't strategy it's just a game of rock paper scissors.
Ever played a game called poker? Strategy and chance coexist my friend.
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On August 25 2011 14:59 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 14:50 wats0n wrote: I don't think that I've ever heard more asinine comments from a "pro" than what I heard on Destiny's stream tonight.
He said that he doesn't think that he should go one build and his opponent can go one build and he automatically loses because of the build choice. Um...are you serious? That's what a strategy game is. Why does he think that players have to know multiple builds? This isn't an RPG where you level up one build and grow it continuously and the person with the best build wins. Wagering chances and incorporating scouting is all part of STRATEGY. What he's describing is the antithesis of strategy.
He said that with his infestor build (the only build he every really does) he could win every time if he had maphack against the terran. Um...the ability to ingame transition on the fly and scout is all part of the build you do. You have to weigh the strengths and weaknesses of everything and the revelation that your LATEGAME build could win if you knew what kind of early game exploit he is going to punish you with is pretty fucking obvious. All he said is that his build is solid. He's saying his build doesn't have BO losses, which I think is the correct assumption to have when you're coming up with your own strategy. You want to try to adapt based on what you can scout, you don't want to throw out an entire build immediately just because you found a certain variation hard. You want to be able to find a way to compete with that variation in the realm of still using your strategy. Actually what YOU'VE said is the antithesis of strategy. Strategy is all about trying to solve the game, which implies that there's 1 best way to play, and you can play that way every single game, like a float chart that may have variations based on what your opponent is doing, but it's still the same flow chart, and for this you obviously need to scout. What you're talking about isn't strategy it's just a game of rock paper scissors.
Wait, what? What RTS has ever had one single flow chart? You don't play the game, you play your opponent. Destiny's goal is to get infestors out at around the 11:30 mark. Failing that, he loses. Nothing about his play style points to this multi-tiered, layered, play style that you are suggesting. Destiny's build is extremely greedy. He tries to skip to the mid-late game to make up for short coming in his own ability.
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On August 25 2011 14:59 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 14:50 wats0n wrote: I don't think that I've ever heard more asinine comments from a "pro" than what I heard on Destiny's stream tonight.
He said that he doesn't think that he should go one build and his opponent can go one build and he automatically loses because of the build choice. Um...are you serious? That's what a strategy game is. Why does he think that players have to know multiple builds? This isn't an RPG where you level up one build and grow it continuously and the person with the best build wins. Wagering chances and incorporating scouting is all part of STRATEGY. What he's describing is the antithesis of strategy.
He said that with his infestor build (the only build he every really does) he could win every time if he had maphack against the terran. Um...the ability to ingame transition on the fly and scout is all part of the build you do. You have to weigh the strengths and weaknesses of everything and the revelation that your LATEGAME build could win if you knew what kind of early game exploit he is going to punish you with is pretty fucking obvious. Actually what YOU'VE said is the antithesis of strategy. Strategy is all about trying to solve the game, which implies that there's 1 best way to play, and you can play that way every single game, like a float chart that may have variations based on what your opponent is doing, but it's still the same flow chart, and for this you obviously need to scout. What you're talking about isn't strategy it's just a game of rock paper scissors.
What? All the plans that you take to arrive at victory is strategy. You can use plans that are inherently disadvantaged against other plans and that doesn't mean there was no strategy. What you said makes no sense.
If you make a conscious decision beforehand to go for lategame then that's your strategy. The opponent risks losing if he doesn't beat you early and you risk losing early game. That's what strategy is all about. One build that is predetermined to win because it's leveled up so far is not strategy at all.
And this is also not taking into consideration builds that allow for adaptability to early game scouting or deciding your build based upon scouting. Destiny's build is predetermined. Again, that's not strategy.
He should be strategically sacrificing resources to gain information and make tactical decisions to improve his position in the fight.
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On August 25 2011 15:10 jenzebubble wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 14:59 Kiarip wrote:On August 25 2011 14:50 wats0n wrote: I don't think that I've ever heard more asinine comments from a "pro" than what I heard on Destiny's stream tonight.
He said that he doesn't think that he should go one build and his opponent can go one build and he automatically loses because of the build choice. Um...are you serious? That's what a strategy game is. Why does he think that players have to know multiple builds? This isn't an RPG where you level up one build and grow it continuously and the person with the best build wins. Wagering chances and incorporating scouting is all part of STRATEGY. What he's describing is the antithesis of strategy.
He said that with his infestor build (the only build he every really does) he could win every time if he had maphack against the terran. Um...the ability to ingame transition on the fly and scout is all part of the build you do. You have to weigh the strengths and weaknesses of everything and the revelation that your LATEGAME build could win if you knew what kind of early game exploit he is going to punish you with is pretty fucking obvious. All he said is that his build is solid. He's saying his build doesn't have BO losses, which I think is the correct assumption to have when you're coming up with your own strategy. You want to try to adapt based on what you can scout, you don't want to throw out an entire build immediately just because you found a certain variation hard. You want to be able to find a way to compete with that variation in the realm of still using your strategy. Actually what YOU'VE said is the antithesis of strategy. Strategy is all about trying to solve the game, which implies that there's 1 best way to play, and you can play that way every single game, like a float chart that may have variations based on what your opponent is doing, but it's still the same flow chart, and for this you obviously need to scout. What you're talking about isn't strategy it's just a game of rock paper scissors. Wait, what? What RTS has ever had one single flow chart? You don't play the game, you play your opponent. Destiny's goal is to get infestors out at around the 11:30 mark. Failing that, he loses. Nothing about his play style points to this multi-tiered, layered, play style that you are suggesting. Destiny's build is extremely greedy. He tries to skip to the mid-late game to make up for short coming in his own ability.
That's a guide to becoming a terrible player that doesn't have understanding of the actual game.
If you want to do a strategy you try to make it work against different variation. A strategy IS a flow chart. There's a bunch of strategy games that are solved that have flow charts or algorithms to winning.
Understanding the game means that you know what leads to what in a certain situation.
Obviously SC2 is a complicated game and not solved, maybe not solvable, but when you're developing your own strategies and play style you're attempting to solve the game. When Destiny says that his strategy doesn't straight up lose to some other strategy he's saying that his position is winnable, meaning that it's a solid playstyle that doesn't rely on coinflips.
Ever played a game called poker? Strategy and chance coexist my friend.
Poker is a game of mathematics and mind games. You can say mind game is part of strategy but ti isn't. Mind game is meta-game. A strategy is in-game plan. they're the absolute opposites.
What? All the plans that you take to arrive at victory is strategy. You can use plans that are inherently disadvantaged against other plans and that doesn't mean there was no strategy. What you said makes no sense.
If you make a conscious decision beforehand to go for lategame then that's your strategy. The opponent risks losing if he doesn't beat you early and you risk losing early game. That's what strategy is all about. One build that is predetermined to win because it's leveled up so far is not strategy at all.
And this is also not taking into consideration builds that allow for adaptability to early game scouting or deciding your build based upon scouting. Destiny's build is predetermined. Again, that's not strategy.
He should be strategically sacrificing resources to gain information and make tactical decisions to improve his position in the fight.
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A large portion of his game-plan is predetermined but that's caz he believes it's strong. First of all I doubt it's completely predetermiend because if terran goes supply CC supply CC I'm sure he will adapt into just killing his opponent.
A lot of terrans will go supply-rax before they even scout their opponent, and it's considered just a standardly solid way to play that you don't need to sacrifice anything in order to see what your opponent is doing in order to justify this decision. As the game gets moer figured out larger and larger portions of play become less reliant on scouting and more set-in-stone-solid, destiny thinks that his opening with investment for the late-game is a solid way to play. I think if he's come a long way in being able to defend this it's completely illogical for him to all of a sudden throw it out of the window because he lost a single series. It's still very much possible for him to go back and see what he needs to do differently, and still have a good game against early aggression builds that he previously lost to.
That's strategy. What you were talking about isn't it's meta-gaming and it's only a good idea when you already have a good understanding of the game, or you know you have no chance to beat your opponent straight up.
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On August 25 2011 12:58 LicH. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:51 OscarN wrote: Let me guess, destiny did a infestor two base, all four games? *tried to do two base infestor :D From what I see with that style it really is similar to the protoss deathball that was murdering zergs for awhile. If you can get the near perfect zerg army of infestors and broodlords up you have a pretty sick good army, but there is no way the way destiny does it will work. You have to step by step move towards that army starting with armies of other units, expanding, etc, else you get killed by timing pushes. No one should ever play a pure macro game against destiny style, you should always smash it in the beginning because it is gimmicky, reckless, and weak to early pushes. The style only really seems to work when opponents are not used to it IMO or destiny pulls a miracle defense.
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