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On August 11 2011 16:59 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:53 FarbrorAbavna wrote:On August 11 2011 16:52 covetousrat wrote:On August 11 2011 16:50 travis wrote:
the way to beat 1/1/1 is to FE, hope they allin, drop zealots in their mineral line with warp prism after they move out and hope they don't have enough at home to stop it, sac your natural and FF your ramp. that's not very fair though because if they aren't very predictable it may not work, and if they make a banshee at home or don't send lots of marines they can stop it, or if they have a viking protecting home they can stop it. but it works a lot of the time. Or Protoss can start doing some Warp Prism 4 Gate all in. 1-1-1 is weakest before the 6 minutes mark with only 4 marines and a Bunker. isnt a 4gate before 6 minutes pretty much impossible with the nerf to warp gate research? You can 10 gate and get an allin at 5:30 that is really gay t.T
Yup, I do that crazy 4gate in 2v2s, it's pretty awesome. But I'm not sure how it holds up against the 111.
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On August 11 2011 16:59 Pyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:58 bennyaus wrote:On August 11 2011 16:57 Mike15xp wrote:On August 11 2011 16:55 Pyre wrote:
1 zealot has 13.3 dps and 2 marines has 14 dps. marines are ranged and zealots are melee and slow as fuck. your point? Zealot with charge is faster than unstimmed marine, I think? Liqipedia says same speed
Charge increases zealot speed from 2.25>2.75
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On August 11 2011 17:00 Jacobs Ladder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:53 GreatHate wrote:On August 11 2011 16:44 youngminii wrote:On August 11 2011 16:43 tuho12345 wrote:On August 11 2011 16:41 taLbuk wrote:
Just as Zergs cried over stupid protoss builds, they eventually learned to deal with them, the same will happen with Protoss, so stop filling LR threads with bullshit balance complaints. bullshit, without infestor buff, Zerg can't never beat that!!! lol this is true i fucking hate it when people pull out the "zerg figured out how to deal with x" THEY DIDN'T THEY GOT BUFFED jesus christ there's a difference To be fair, it's easy for them to forget because we also got a huge nerf. The 20 second warpgate nerf was meant to effect PvP, but it was a HUGE (and retarded) setback in the other matchups. Didn't fucking fix PvP either.
4-gate --> slightly slower 4-gate. Sounds fine to me! [/sarcasm]
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On August 11 2011 16:57 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:55 Fig wrote:On August 11 2011 16:52 Worldatlarge wrote:On August 11 2011 16:48 Jacobs Ladder wrote:On August 11 2011 16:47 Yang Wenli wrote:
Well If it were me, in order to build ravens just make it so you need an armory. Science vessels needed another building in BW. It doesn't make sense that a PDD is instantly available based on the level of tech construction from 1-1-1. That's actually a really good idea. They have detection from scans. It might mess up TvT a bit, but it would be a huge difference in PvT and no difference in ZvTvZ I'm not even sure that would stop the push from succeeding. There's a variant which is just as effective without the Raven, just one more banshee, one more tank, or cloak. Put cloak on back on the fusion core! It was there during the beta, but terrans weren't using banshees enough for Blizzard's liking, so they made cloak easy to get. They even gave Banshees 10 more hp! Look what they've done! This is a really stupid suggestion as it would make banshees completely 100% useless.
jinro surely as a terran practicing with OGS protoss you know of ways for protoss to hold the 1/1/1? It would be nice to get a pro perspective on it rather than the usual uninformed crying. What do you think about it?
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On August 11 2011 16:59 hippocritical wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:58 bennyaus wrote:On August 11 2011 16:57 Mike15xp wrote:On August 11 2011 16:55 Pyre wrote:
1 zealot has 13.3 dps and 2 marines has 14 dps. marines are ranged and zealots are melee and slow as fuck. your point? Zealot with charge is faster than unstimmed marine, I think? 20 unstimmed marines backed by siege tanks and banshees are better than gateway as a rule of thumb, barring templar with storm or archons.
Perhaps, but if you 1gate FE and have an overwhelming economy advantage, plus the fact that the siege tanks are actually a negative factor vs a charge zealot heavy army as they deal as much damage to themselves and marines as the zealots, I think my argument has legs. Yes they can't hit banshee, but a banshee in low numbers doesn't thin zealot numbers very much and a stalker warp in after the battle is usually enough to deal with the left over air.
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On August 11 2011 17:00 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:53 travis wrote:On August 11 2011 16:53 tuho12345 wrote:On August 11 2011 16:50 travis wrote:
the way to beat 1/1/1 is to FE, hope they allin, drop zealots in their mineral line with warp prism after they move out and hope they don't have enough at home to stop it, sac your natural and FF your ramp. that's not very fair though because if they aren't very predictable it may not work, and if they make a banshee at home or don't send lots of marines they can stop it, or if they have a viking protecting home they can stop it. but it works a lot of the time. lol, the best part is they pull all the SCVs like Yoda did, so what chu gonna drop in his mineral line anyway? no thats even better. if he does that then you completely stop his economy and you can just forcefield your ramp and get an insane economy advantage falling back on to one base is not the answer. just mass zealot ^^
Mass Zealot doesn’t work if the terran just bunker pushes and sets up a choke.
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On August 11 2011 16:59 Aquila- wrote:
Lol so funny Protosses do 4 gate, 3 gate robo, 3 gate stargate, DT rush, warpprism stuff and other stupid allins all the time and now Terran refuses to die 1 time and counters all Protoss are like QQ...
All what you said all-in from Protoss are holdable. This retarded build is unstoppable, see the different there huh mr. Genius?
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On August 11 2011 17:01 Disquiet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:57 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On August 11 2011 16:55 Fig wrote:On August 11 2011 16:52 Worldatlarge wrote:On August 11 2011 16:48 Jacobs Ladder wrote:On August 11 2011 16:47 Yang Wenli wrote:
Well If it were me, in order to build ravens just make it so you need an armory. Science vessels needed another building in BW. It doesn't make sense that a PDD is instantly available based on the level of tech construction from 1-1-1. That's actually a really good idea. They have detection from scans. It might mess up TvT a bit, but it would be a huge difference in PvT and no difference in ZvTvZ I'm not even sure that would stop the push from succeeding. There's a variant which is just as effective without the Raven, just one more banshee, one more tank, or cloak. Put cloak on back on the fusion core! It was there during the beta, but terrans weren't using banshees enough for Blizzard's liking, so they made cloak easy to get. They even gave Banshees 10 more hp! Look what they've done! This is a really stupid suggestion as it would make banshees completely 100% useless. jinro surely as a terran practicing with OGS protoss you know of ways for protoss to hold the 1/1/1? It would be nice to get a pro perspective on it rather than the usual uninformed crying. What do you think about it?
I personally would like to know if MC has come up with anything at all. =/
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On August 11 2011 16:56 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:54 youngminii wrote:On August 11 2011 16:47 Noocta wrote:On August 11 2011 16:44 youngminii wrote:On August 11 2011 16:43 tuho12345 wrote:On August 11 2011 16:41 taLbuk wrote:
Just as Zergs cried over stupid protoss builds, they eventually learned to deal with them, the same will happen with Protoss, so stop filling LR threads with bullshit balance complaints. bullshit, without infestor buff, Zerg can't never beat that!!! lol this is true i fucking hate it when people pull out the "zerg figured out how to deal with x" THEY DIDN'T THEY GOT BUFFED jesus christ there's a difference Infestor buff has nothing to do in zerg learning how to deal with stargate opening into colossus, or heavy gatewya agression. The only thing that was fix by Finfextor buff was the unbeatable VR Colossus ball. These games make me sad. I hope Blizzard don't nerf fix this in the wrong way, making stalker too powerfull, or making raven be use even less. Don't know if you know this but.. The Roach got a range buff (this was the most helpful Zerg buff imo), Warp Gate got several pretty huge nerfs, Spore Crawlers got a nice buff (this was instrumental into dealing with Stargate openings), the Infestor buff comes into play against deathballs AND remember the buff regarding fungaled Blink Stalkers? Let's not forget the cannon increase time, the Zealot build increase time, the HT nerf (this was mostly for PvT). All the while we've gotten what, a Phoenix build decrease time and a Sentry build decrease time that only affects pre-Warp Gate tech, both of which are barely used? You guys complained for almost an entire fucking year and you got what you wanted, now people are laughing at us for complaining about one build? A build that makes SC2 extremely unpleasant to watch? I couldn't care less how it affects me in ladder, I only care because I keep seeing Protoss players getting mercilessly slaughtered in GSL which is meant to be the epitome of SC2 skill. I don't disagree with protoss saying this 1/1/1 thing is BS. But telling people that zerg didn't figure out anything and just got buffed is the reason that PvZ is what it is right now ( and using that to think that they should get buffed / terran nerfed ) is laughable. :/
So you don't mind if those Zerg buffs and Protoss nerfs are reverted in the next patch then? What's laughable is that you think those buffs and nerfs have no impact at all.
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On August 11 2011 17:00 Obaten wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:59 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On August 11 2011 16:53 FarbrorAbavna wrote:On August 11 2011 16:52 covetousrat wrote:On August 11 2011 16:50 travis wrote:
the way to beat 1/1/1 is to FE, hope they allin, drop zealots in their mineral line with warp prism after they move out and hope they don't have enough at home to stop it, sac your natural and FF your ramp. that's not very fair though because if they aren't very predictable it may not work, and if they make a banshee at home or don't send lots of marines they can stop it, or if they have a viking protecting home they can stop it. but it works a lot of the time. Or Protoss can start doing some Warp Prism 4 Gate all in. 1-1-1 is weakest before the 6 minutes mark with only 4 marines and a Bunker. isnt a 4gate before 6 minutes pretty much impossible with the nerf to warp gate research? You can 10 gate and get an allin at 5:30 that is really gay t.T Yup, I do that crazy 4gate in 2v2s, it's pretty awesome. But I'm not sure how it holds up against the 111.
The key difference between that 10 gate, and the 1-1-1 is that a 10 gate can be presumably held quite easily if scouted by using bunkers. Whereas currently not even a supposed blind counter (game 2) can hold the 1-1-1.
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On August 11 2011 16:59 Aquila- wrote:
Lol so funny Protosses do 4 gate, 3 gate robo, 3 gate stargate, DT rush, warpprism stuff and other stupid allins all the time and now Terran refuses to die 1 time and counters and all Protoss are like QQ...
You've clearly been paying attention lately. Protoss is doing really well, Terran needs some love. Either that or you're a complete troll who likely doesn't understand thing one about this game.
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Maybe slow zealot, phoenix, sentry, immortal would work? Just hope he doesn't have a ton of marines.
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On August 11 2011 17:01 Orpheusz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:00 L3g3nd_ wrote:On August 11 2011 16:53 travis wrote:On August 11 2011 16:53 tuho12345 wrote:On August 11 2011 16:50 travis wrote:
the way to beat 1/1/1 is to FE, hope they allin, drop zealots in their mineral line with warp prism after they move out and hope they don't have enough at home to stop it, sac your natural and FF your ramp. that's not very fair though because if they aren't very predictable it may not work, and if they make a banshee at home or don't send lots of marines they can stop it, or if they have a viking protecting home they can stop it. but it works a lot of the time. lol, the best part is they pull all the SCVs like Yoda did, so what chu gonna drop in his mineral line anyway? no thats even better. if he does that then you completely stop his economy and you can just forcefield your ramp and get an insane economy advantage falling back on to one base is not the answer. just mass zealot ^^ Mass Zealot doesn’t work if the terran just bunker pushes and sets up a choke.
Indeed, that is probably the major issue with mass zealot, but otherwise it would crush the ground portion of the army. The issue with 1-1-1 is the amount of variables....
With or without cloak
With or without raven
With or without Stim (or Combat Shield)
...all of these can be stopped but require perfect scouting maybe because they require different responses.
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On August 11 2011 16:54 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:52 eScaper-tsunami wrote:On August 11 2011 16:50 travis wrote:
the way to beat 1/1/1 is to FE, hope they allin, drop zealots in their mineral line with warp prism after they move out and hope they don't have enough at home to stop it, sac your natural and FF your ramp. that's not very fair though because if they aren't very predictable it may not work, and if they make a banshee at home or don't send lots of marines they can stop it, or if they have a viking protecting home they can stop it. but it works a lot of the time. You can't ff ramp infinitely long because of cloak banshees. With warp prism and sentries for FF I'm going to make the assumption you have very little stalkers to hold the ramp. why would cloaked banshees (rare in 1/1/1 allins anyways) stop you from forcefielding the ramp over and over? why wouldn't you have enough to kill some banshees?
Sentries eat up the gas for stalkers? Doesn't it?
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On August 11 2011 17:03 Pyre wrote:
Maybe slow zealot, phoenix, sentry, immortal would work? Just hope he doesn't have a ton of marines.
And where are you going to get all that gas from? Or are you saying build just 1 of each gas required units?
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I wonder if the Korean netizens are as bored with these TvP games as a lot of us in this thread were.
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On August 11 2011 16:59 Aquila- wrote:
Lol so funny Protosses do 4 gate, 3 gate robo, 3 gate stargate, DT rush, warpprism stuff and other stupid allins all the time and now Terran refuses to die 1 time and counters and all Protoss are like QQ...
you have no idea what's going on do you?
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On August 11 2011 17:03 bennyaus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:01 Orpheusz wrote:On August 11 2011 17:00 L3g3nd_ wrote:On August 11 2011 16:53 travis wrote:On August 11 2011 16:53 tuho12345 wrote:On August 11 2011 16:50 travis wrote:
the way to beat 1/1/1 is to FE, hope they allin, drop zealots in their mineral line with warp prism after they move out and hope they don't have enough at home to stop it, sac your natural and FF your ramp. that's not very fair though because if they aren't very predictable it may not work, and if they make a banshee at home or don't send lots of marines they can stop it, or if they have a viking protecting home they can stop it. but it works a lot of the time. lol, the best part is they pull all the SCVs like Yoda did, so what chu gonna drop in his mineral line anyway? no thats even better. if he does that then you completely stop his economy and you can just forcefield your ramp and get an insane economy advantage falling back on to one base is not the answer. just mass zealot ^^ Mass Zealot doesn’t work if the terran just bunker pushes and sets up a choke. Indeed, that is probably the major issue with mass zealot, but otherwise it would crush the ground portion of the army. The issue with 1-1-1 is the amount of variables.... With or without cloak With or without raven With or without Stim (or Combat Shield) ...all of these can be stopped but require perfect scouting maybe because they require different responses.
Pull or no pull SCVs
If fail to kill the army directly, why not just do a MVP. Expand and make a sim city with bunkers and outmacro toss...
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On August 11 2011 17:01 bennyaus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:59 hippocritical wrote:On August 11 2011 16:58 bennyaus wrote:On August 11 2011 16:57 Mike15xp wrote:On August 11 2011 16:55 Pyre wrote:
1 zealot has 13.3 dps and 2 marines has 14 dps. marines are ranged and zealots are melee and slow as fuck. your point? Zealot with charge is faster than unstimmed marine, I think? 20 unstimmed marines backed by siege tanks and banshees are better than gateway as a rule of thumb, barring templar with storm or archons. Perhaps, but if you 1gate FE and have an overwhelming economy advantage, plus the fact that the siege tanks are actually a negative factor vs a charge zealot heavy army as they deal as much damage to themselves and marines as the zealots, I think my argument has legs. Yes they can't hit banshee, but a banshee in low numbers doesn't thin zealot numbers very much and a stalker warp in after the battle is usually enough to deal with the left over air.
That works some of the time I guess, depends how wide the entry point is for the charge zealots, if zealots go head first they'll probably suffer some horrendous casulties, the way Nada did his 1-1-1 was he just built 1-2 bunkers and they buffered brilliantly for the tanks and drew the charge. I think if the maps allowed a bit more distance between the bases it would be probably be easier to intercept, the problem really is the shocking amount of marines the terran is able to produce relative to zealots. You can either compromise building stalkers to get zealots, but it really leaves you with too little surface area if you do charge into a corridor or a choke.
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On August 11 2011 17:04 Deltablazy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 17:03 Pyre wrote:
Maybe slow zealot, phoenix, sentry, immortal would work? Just hope he doesn't have a ton of marines. And where are you going to get all that gas from? Or are you saying build just 1 of each gas required units?
like 3 phoenix, 2 immoral, 2 sentry shouldn't be a ton of gas. Add more as time goes by.
Completely ignore stalkers because they aren't great against any of the terran's unit comp.
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EPT
