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On August 11 2011 16:52 Worldatlarge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:48 Jacobs Ladder wrote:On August 11 2011 16:47 Yang Wenli wrote:
Well If it were me, in order to build ravens just make it so you need an armory. Science vessels needed another building in BW. It doesn't make sense that a PDD is instantly available based on the level of tech construction from 1-1-1. That's actually a really good idea. They have detection from scans. It might mess up TvT a bit, but it would be a huge difference in PvT and no difference in ZvTvZ I'm not even sure that would stop the push from succeeding. There's a variant which is just as effective without the Raven, just one more banshee, one more tank, or cloak.
Put cloak on back on the fusion core! It was there during the beta, but terrans weren't using banshees enough for Blizzard's liking, so they made cloak easy to get. They even gave Banshees 10 more hp! Look what they've done!
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On August 11 2011 16:49 CortoMontez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:48 skrzmark wrote:
I still think Archon Zealot is the counter to 1-1-1 feed back on raven?? banshees? Almost every match where I have seen a toss go a non-stargate build against terran, the terran just focuses the stalkers, then uses banshees to kill everything. Archon zealot will have the exact same problem. Especially with tanks for the zealots.
I've actually held 1/1/1s pretty consistently with a zealot stalker archon composition off 2 base. Granted I'm not pro level, but some of them were masters level games. The only problem would be the cloak variation as I haven't run into that version of the build.
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On August 11 2011 16:53 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:52 covetousrat wrote:On August 11 2011 16:50 travis wrote:
the way to beat 1/1/1 is to FE, hope they allin, drop zealots in their mineral line with warp prism after they move out and hope they don't have enough at home to stop it, sac your natural and FF your ramp. that's not very fair though because if they aren't very predictable it may not work, and if they make a banshee at home or don't send lots of marines they can stop it, or if they have a viking protecting home they can stop it. but it works a lot of the time. Or Protoss can start doing some Warp Prism 4 Gate all in. 1-1-1 is weakest before the 6 minutes mark with only 4 marines and a Bunker. I tried that a lot I don't think it's good. marines + whatever else + scvs easily stop it.
Iv been trying the Warp Prism Elevating. With 4 zealot and Elevate the starting 3 units, you could have 7 units and 4 more on the way bypassing the Bunker. Zealots can fight the SCVs while Stalkers deal with the Marines.
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1 zealot has 13.3 dps and 2 marines has 14 dps.
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On August 11 2011 16:50 travis wrote:
the way to beat 1/1/1 is to FE, hope they allin, drop zealots in their mineral line with warp prism after they move out and hope they don't have enough at home to stop it, sac your natural and FF your ramp. that's not very fair though because if they aren't very predictable it may not work, and if they make a banshee at home or don't send lots of marines they can stop it, or if they have a viking protecting home they can stop it. but it works a lot of the time.
Wont work:
A: They already pulled SCVs, theres nothing to harass/kill.
B: FF ramp -> siege the ramp. You cant get in range to FF without losing sentries.
C: Banshees can snipe sentries, Raven PDD can protect from Stalkers.
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On August 11 2011 16:53 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:52 covetousrat wrote:On August 11 2011 16:50 travis wrote:
the way to beat 1/1/1 is to FE, hope they allin, drop zealots in their mineral line with warp prism after they move out and hope they don't have enough at home to stop it, sac your natural and FF your ramp. that's not very fair though because if they aren't very predictable it may not work, and if they make a banshee at home or don't send lots of marines they can stop it, or if they have a viking protecting home they can stop it. but it works a lot of the time. Or Protoss can start doing some Warp Prism 4 Gate all in. 1-1-1 is weakest before the 6 minutes mark with only 4 marines and a Bunker. I tried that a lot I don't think it's good. marines + whatever else + scvs easily stop it.
i also don't like the idea of countering an all in with another all in.
If a build doesn't have a solid reactive way to hold against it, then there's a problem
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On August 11 2011 16:53 Pyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:52 bennyaus wrote:On August 11 2011 16:51 Pyre wrote:
banshee/tank/marine all high dps with the PDD and scv buffer
zealot low dps/slow/cant hit air/
sentry low dps
stalker low dps for cost/ pdd owns it
I'm not sure what tech path toss should go because gateways alone has no chance Zealot is high dps, not sure where you got this misinformation from. People seriously underrate how well Zealots do against marine/tank, once they have charge. zealot costs 2 marines and i believe 2 marines out dps a zealot. Not to mention they will be 1/2 dead before they even reach terrans units.
Without testing it, I'm going to say that Zealot with charge in equal food numbers can probably single handedly deal with marine/tank due to their HPs, fact they have high dps, and cause splash damage on their target from sieged tanks. Someone can test it though. Seriously a shitload of zealots after the Phoenix opening instead of going blink and getting a bunch of stalkers against a raven with 2 pdds would've gone much better.
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On August 11 2011 16:54 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:47 Noocta wrote:On August 11 2011 16:44 youngminii wrote:On August 11 2011 16:43 tuho12345 wrote:On August 11 2011 16:41 taLbuk wrote:
Just as Zergs cried over stupid protoss builds, they eventually learned to deal with them, the same will happen with Protoss, so stop filling LR threads with bullshit balance complaints. bullshit, without infestor buff, Zerg can't never beat that!!! lol this is true i fucking hate it when people pull out the "zerg figured out how to deal with x" THEY DIDN'T THEY GOT BUFFED jesus christ there's a difference Infestor buff has nothing to do in zerg learning how to deal with stargate opening into colossus, or heavy gatewya agression. The only thing that was fix by Finfextor buff was the unbeatable VR Colossus ball. These games make me sad. I hope Blizzard don't nerf fix this in the wrong way, making stalker too powerfull, or making raven be use even less. Don't know if you know this but.. The Roach got a range buff (this was the most helpful Zerg buff imo), Warp Gate got several pretty huge nerfs, Spore Crawlers got a nice buff (this was instrumental into dealing with Stargate openings), the Infestor buff comes into play against deathballs AND remember the buff regarding fungaled Blink Stalkers? Let's not forget the cannon increase time, the Zealot build increase time, the HT nerf (this was mostly for PvT). All the while we've gotten what, a Phoenix build decrease time and a Sentry build decrease time that only affects pre-Warp Gate tech, both of which are barely used? You guys complained for almost an entire fucking year and you got what you wanted, now people are laughing at us for complaining about one build? A build that makes SC2 extremely unpleasant to watch? I couldn't care less how it affects me in ladder, I only care because I keep seeing Protoss players getting mercilessly slaughtered in GSL which is meant to be the epitome of SC2 skill.
I don't disagree with protoss saying this 1/1/1 thing is BS.
But telling people that zerg didn't figure out anything and just got buffed is the reason that PvZ is what it is right now ( and using that to think that they should get buffed / terran nerfed ) is laughable. :/
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On August 11 2011 16:53 FarbrorAbavna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:52 covetousrat wrote:On August 11 2011 16:50 travis wrote:
the way to beat 1/1/1 is to FE, hope they allin, drop zealots in their mineral line with warp prism after they move out and hope they don't have enough at home to stop it, sac your natural and FF your ramp. that's not very fair though because if they aren't very predictable it may not work, and if they make a banshee at home or don't send lots of marines they can stop it, or if they have a viking protecting home they can stop it. but it works a lot of the time. Or Protoss can start doing some Warp Prism 4 Gate all in. 1-1-1 is weakest before the 6 minutes mark with only 4 marines and a Bunker. isnt a 4gate before 6 minutes pretty much impossible with the nerf to warp gate research?
It's possible, but if you're getting a warp prism your timing will be off anyways.
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On August 11 2011 16:54 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:50 travis wrote:
the way to beat 1/1/1 is to FE, hope they allin, drop zealots in their mineral line with warp prism after they move out and hope they don't have enough at home to stop it, sac your natural and FF your ramp. that's not very fair though because if they aren't very predictable it may not work, and if they make a banshee at home or don't send lots of marines they can stop it, or if they have a viking protecting home they can stop it. but it works a lot of the time. why would dropping zealots in their mineral line matter? They pull a majority of their scvs and really with a decent amount of banshees and siege tanks I don't see how you would pull this off
it matters because they either have to run back to their base, or they have literally 0 economy and slowly start losing their buildings. meanwhile as I said you just keep your main and keep adding to your army and then it's an easy victory.
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On August 11 2011 16:55 Pyre wrote:
1 zealot has 13.3 dps and 2 marines has 14 dps.
What you're not mentioning is HP/Shield/Armor.... Dps is kind of irrelevant if you can't stay alive to do that dps.
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On August 11 2011 16:53 FarbrorAbavna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:52 covetousrat wrote:On August 11 2011 16:50 travis wrote:
the way to beat 1/1/1 is to FE, hope they allin, drop zealots in their mineral line with warp prism after they move out and hope they don't have enough at home to stop it, sac your natural and FF your ramp. that's not very fair though because if they aren't very predictable it may not work, and if they make a banshee at home or don't send lots of marines they can stop it, or if they have a viking protecting home they can stop it. but it works a lot of the time. Or Protoss can start doing some Warp Prism 4 Gate all in. 1-1-1 is weakest before the 6 minutes mark with only 4 marines and a Bunker. isnt a 4gate before 6 minutes pretty much impossible with the nerf to warp gate research?
Was done a couple of times in the qualifiers. 1-1-1 completely trashes 4 gate with a prism.
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I really think the poll options for recommend game should be:
Yes
No
If You Have Time
RAGE!
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On August 11 2011 16:54 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:52 eScaper-tsunami wrote:On August 11 2011 16:50 travis wrote:
the way to beat 1/1/1 is to FE, hope they allin, drop zealots in their mineral line with warp prism after they move out and hope they don't have enough at home to stop it, sac your natural and FF your ramp. that's not very fair though because if they aren't very predictable it may not work, and if they make a banshee at home or don't send lots of marines they can stop it, or if they have a viking protecting home they can stop it. but it works a lot of the time. You can't ff ramp infinitely long because of cloak banshees. With warp prism and sentries for FF I'm going to make the assumption you have very little stalkers to hold the ramp. why would cloaked banshees (rare in 1/1/1 allins anyways) stop you from forcefielding the ramp over and over? why wouldn't you have enough to kill some banshees?
It all depends, if you made a nexus they will kill it and contain you at the ramp while expanding themselves. You would be like MC in his game against MVP but in a far worse position. The 1/1/1 contain is brutal and its better to engage into the army then be contained by it.
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On August 11 2011 16:55 Pyre wrote:
1 zealot has 13.3 dps and 2 marines has 14 dps.
marines are ranged and zealots are melee and slow as fuck. your point?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 11 2011 16:55 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:52 Worldatlarge wrote:On August 11 2011 16:48 Jacobs Ladder wrote:On August 11 2011 16:47 Yang Wenli wrote:
Well If it were me, in order to build ravens just make it so you need an armory. Science vessels needed another building in BW. It doesn't make sense that a PDD is instantly available based on the level of tech construction from 1-1-1. That's actually a really good idea. They have detection from scans. It might mess up TvT a bit, but it would be a huge difference in PvT and no difference in ZvTvZ I'm not even sure that would stop the push from succeeding. There's a variant which is just as effective without the Raven, just one more banshee, one more tank, or cloak. Put cloak on back on the fusion core! It was there during the beta, but terrans weren't using banshees enough for Blizzard's liking, so they made cloak easy to get. They even gave Banshees 10 more hp! Look what they've done!
This is a really stupid suggestion as it would make banshees completely 100% useless.
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On August 11 2011 16:56 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:54 youngminii wrote:On August 11 2011 16:47 Noocta wrote:On August 11 2011 16:44 youngminii wrote:On August 11 2011 16:43 tuho12345 wrote:On August 11 2011 16:41 taLbuk wrote:
Just as Zergs cried over stupid protoss builds, they eventually learned to deal with them, the same will happen with Protoss, so stop filling LR threads with bullshit balance complaints. bullshit, without infestor buff, Zerg can't never beat that!!! lol this is true i fucking hate it when people pull out the "zerg figured out how to deal with x" THEY DIDN'T THEY GOT BUFFED jesus christ there's a difference Infestor buff has nothing to do in zerg learning how to deal with stargate opening into colossus, or heavy gatewya agression. The only thing that was fix by Finfextor buff was the unbeatable VR Colossus ball. These games make me sad. I hope Blizzard don't nerf fix this in the wrong way, making stalker too powerfull, or making raven be use even less. Don't know if you know this but.. The Roach got a range buff (this was the most helpful Zerg buff imo), Warp Gate got several pretty huge nerfs, Spore Crawlers got a nice buff (this was instrumental into dealing with Stargate openings), the Infestor buff comes into play against deathballs AND remember the buff regarding fungaled Blink Stalkers? Let's not forget the cannon increase time, the Zealot build increase time, the HT nerf (this was mostly for PvT). All the while we've gotten what, a Phoenix build decrease time and a Sentry build decrease time that only affects pre-Warp Gate tech, both of which are barely used? You guys complained for almost an entire fucking year and you got what you wanted, now people are laughing at us for complaining about one build? A build that makes SC2 extremely unpleasant to watch? I couldn't care less how it affects me in ladder, I only care because I keep seeing Protoss players getting mercilessly slaughtered in GSL which is meant to be the epitome of SC2 skill. I don't disagree with protoss saying this 1/1/1 thing is BS. But telling people that zerg didn't figure out anything and just got buffed is the reason that PvZ is what it is right now is laughable. :/
Zerg had a helping hand. We want the same. What is there to not understand?
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On August 11 2011 16:56 bennyaus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:55 Pyre wrote:
1 zealot has 13.3 dps and 2 marines has 14 dps. What you're not mentioning is HP/Shield/Armor.... Dps is kind of irrelevant if you can't stay alive to do that dps.
agree but you need charge for them to be really doing DPS. you can't go 3 tech paths for observer/phoenix/charge its just to much.
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On August 11 2011 16:54 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:47 Noocta wrote:On August 11 2011 16:44 youngminii wrote:On August 11 2011 16:43 tuho12345 wrote:On August 11 2011 16:41 taLbuk wrote:
Just as Zergs cried over stupid protoss builds, they eventually learned to deal with them, the same will happen with Protoss, so stop filling LR threads with bullshit balance complaints. bullshit, without infestor buff, Zerg can't never beat that!!! lol this is true i fucking hate it when people pull out the "zerg figured out how to deal with x" THEY DIDN'T THEY GOT BUFFED jesus christ there's a difference Infestor buff has nothing to do in zerg learning how to deal with stargate opening into colossus, or heavy gatewya agression. The only thing that was fix by Finfextor buff was the unbeatable VR Colossus ball. These games make me sad. I hope Blizzard don't nerf fix this in the wrong way, making stalker too powerfull, or making raven be use even less. Don't know if you know this but.. The Roach got a range buff (this was the most helpful Zerg buff imo), Warp Gate got several pretty huge nerfs, Spore Crawlers got a nice buff (this was instrumental into dealing with Stargate openings), the Infestor buff comes into play against deathballs AND remember the buff regarding fungaled Blink Stalkers? Let's not forget the cannon increase time, the Zealot build increase time, the HT nerf (this was mostly for PvT). All the while we've gotten what, a Phoenix build decrease time and a Sentry build decrease time that only affects pre-Warp Gate tech, both of which are barely used? You guys complained for almost an entire fucking year and you got what you wanted, now people are laughing at us for complaining about one build? A build that makes SC2 extremely unpleasant to watch? I couldn't care less how it affects me in ladder, I only care because I keep seeing Protoss players getting mercilessly slaughtered in GSL which is meant to be the epitome of SC2 skill. Oh yeah, I completely forgot about the repeated Void Ray nerfs. I'm not saying these were unwarranted, I'm saying these happened for a reason and you Zerg players didn't just magically 'adapt' to the OP shit that went around.
Actually wasn't the sentry restored to its original build time? You also forgot how they reduced sentry attack by 1.
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On August 11 2011 16:56 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 16:54 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 11 2011 16:50 travis wrote:
the way to beat 1/1/1 is to FE, hope they allin, drop zealots in their mineral line with warp prism after they move out and hope they don't have enough at home to stop it, sac your natural and FF your ramp. that's not very fair though because if they aren't very predictable it may not work, and if they make a banshee at home or don't send lots of marines they can stop it, or if they have a viking protecting home they can stop it. but it works a lot of the time. why would dropping zealots in their mineral line matter? They pull a majority of their scvs and really with a decent amount of banshees and siege tanks I don't see how you would pull this off it matters because they either have to run back to their base, or they have literally 0 economy and slowly start losing their buildings. meanwhile as I said you just keep your main and keep adding to your army and then it's an easy victory.
Well this is the 1-1-1 all in we're talking about
typically you do go banshees with this build and have 2-3 and also the siege tanks should be able to stop any continuous force fields
it's basically the same reason you can't do this on their ramp early on
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EPT
