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On July 06 2011 01:13 PUre.nINE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 00:12 Femari wrote:On July 05 2011 23:45 imareaver3 wrote:On July 05 2011 23:35 Femari wrote:On July 05 2011 23:19 Rarak wrote:On July 05 2011 22:52 mikyaJ wrote:On July 05 2011 22:49 Heavenly wrote:On July 05 2011 22:43 mikyaJ wrote:
I like the logic though, a Bronze player shouldn't comment on GSL games, because they're no where near the skill level of them. Well a Master player shouldn't comment either because they're no where near that skill level either.
That's like saying, hoho, this Football announcer should shut his mouth these football players are way better than him. A bronze player is a bronze player because they literally have no understanding of the game, they don't even understand build orders or what unit counters what. A better comparison would be an infant trying to criticize an adult. A masters player at least understands the game enough to realize what is going on. And the football announcer thing is completely irrelevant to all of that, because a football announcer would be the same as an esports commentator. Their job is to understand the game (even though Tastosis failed to do that in this case, hence the criticism) so they will have more specialized knowledge. And most of them are okay at the game minus Totalbiscuit being forever gold. The point is playing is not the same as commenting. A Bronze player could have 3 times the game knowledge of a Masters player. No just no, don't even try to argue that. You get to masters by understanding builds and the game. Let me guess you are below masters? When i started playing I couldnt figure out why pros hardly ever built cannons (except vs zerg) these sorts of things become so obvious once you play the game at a decent level. Players below diamond at least generally will have a poor understanding of play, diamond and masters will often lack the execution of GM etc. You're missing the point. The point is you don't have to be a certain league to have a certain understanding of the game. If you take someone relatively somewhat intelligent and have him watch nothing but Starcraft 2 games all the time for years, yet he never plays the game, he will still have a very high understanding of the game. You do not have to play the game to have a deep understanding of it. It's like this with every game and sport. Yeah, but if you had that "deep understanding," you'd make masters in a week or two. The mechanics aren't that hard to acquire. Still missing the point. The whole point is that what league you're in means nothing in terms of understanding and knowledge of the game. Some people don't have time to play the game so they sit around in low levels but they could tell you exactly what to do in each match up. And yeah you could make masters easy (if the reason why your low level isnt a physical reason like injury), but the point is that leagues aren't the end all be all for understanding of the game. On July 05 2011 23:53 emecee wrote:On July 05 2011 23:43 ckast wrote:On July 05 2011 23:19 Rarak wrote:On July 05 2011 22:52 mikyaJ wrote:On July 05 2011 22:49 Heavenly wrote:On July 05 2011 22:43 mikyaJ wrote:
I like the logic though, a Bronze player shouldn't comment on GSL games, because they're no where near the skill level of them. Well a Master player shouldn't comment either because they're no where near that skill level either.
That's like saying, hoho, this Football announcer should shut his mouth these football players are way better than him. A bronze player is a bronze player because they literally have no understanding of the game, they don't even understand build orders or what unit counters what. A better comparison would be an infant trying to criticize an adult. A masters player at least understands the game enough to realize what is going on. And the football announcer thing is completely irrelevant to all of that, because a football announcer would be the same as an esports commentator. Their job is to understand the game (even though Tastosis failed to do that in this case, hence the criticism) so they will have more specialized knowledge. And most of them are okay at the game minus Totalbiscuit being forever gold. The point is playing is not the same as commenting. A Bronze player could have 3 times the game knowledge of a Masters player. No just no, don't even try to argue that. You get to masters by understanding builds and the game. Let me guess you are below masters? When i started playing I couldnt figure out why pros hardly ever built cannons (except vs zerg) these sorts of things become so obvious once you play the game at a decent level. Players below diamond at least generally will have a poor understanding of play, diamond and masters will often lack the execution of GM etc. Players below diamond at least generally will have a poor understanding of play, diamond and masters will often lack the execution of GM etc Agree. You need to be master+ (or high diamond as my bottom line) to understand the move of pros. Stop trying to argue that bronze player can be more knowledgable than a master player. If a bronze players really understands the game that much, you won't be a bronze since you can easily beat any low level players with 2,30APM. just because someone has good knowledge regarding the game dosen't mean they can necessarily be good at the game... i think every commentator for every sport serves as an example. Or coaches for eSports. A lot of coaches (especially in like FPS games) are people who have immense knowledge of the game, but just dont have the skills to use that knowledge to its fullest like pros do. No. You're the one missing the point. You keep repeating "you don't require to be good at the game to have good knowledge of the game". But that is wrong. You need to be good at the game to have good knowledge of the game. The people that don't have time to play much? and such are in lower leagues? They don't have good knowledge of the game. They don't know the knowledge to scout, keeping map control, when to expand, how to macro, how to engage, what general timings, guessing the enemy, and other things. Artosis is not some "bronze that has massive understanding of the game". If Artosis and Tasteless were in gold or silver like TB and djWheat, they will have shit insight because they don't know anything. And it's ridiculous to think this is the same in any other sport. You think people that watch NBA or NFL would know just as much as the players themselves?
I agree with what you say except for the last sentence. The analogy with football or basketball is pretty bad, because playing starcraft and playing football/basketball are on two totally different levels regarding strategy/intelligence/reasonning.
In short, my point is : football isn't rocket science, starcraft kinda is.
On July 06 2011 01:35 skrzmark wrote:
Why talk about what league are you in, just shut up and watch the games, ok?
Some dude a few pages ago claimed that NA GM league was about the same level as EU Platinum. I was just pointing out the idiocy, is all.
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ughh mvp and sc out already? effff
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If you respond to the trolls they keep on commenting, no need to point out the idiocy.
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Oh thank goodness for Zenio <3
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sC and MVP out. Argh. But congrats to Zenio! 
Sad Keen didn't make it, though.
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Haha, I actually liquibetted on Zenio to make it out, and HongUn always screws up my liquibet.
wtf HongUn y u no show consistency.
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So frustrating to see all the best players get eliminated early every GSL season. Hope MC and Bomber don't go out tomorrow.
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On July 06 2011 01:45 lunchforthesky wrote:
So frustrating to see all the best players get eliminated early every GSL season. Hope MC and Bomber don't go out tomorrow.
Maybe they're not the best if they get eliminated early every GSL season....
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2 favorite players, Nada and HongUn advancing w00t!!!!!!
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On July 06 2011 01:47 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 01:45 lunchforthesky wrote:
So frustrating to see all the best players get eliminated early every GSL season. Hope MC and Bomber don't go out tomorrow. Maybe they're not the best if they get eliminated early every GSL season....
Well they don't.
Everyone accepts that the best players in the world are MVP, Nestea, MC, MKP, Bomber.
But we only ever get 1/2 of them in the final 8 and usually only 1 in the final four.
But they're still the best in the world because they're more consistant than anyone else and in the case of the first three have won two GSL's.
It would be a lot more epic if we had a final 8 of MVP, Nestea, MC, MKP, Bomber, Losira, Polt and MMA.
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On July 05 2011 23:35 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 23:19 Rarak wrote:On July 05 2011 22:52 mikyaJ wrote:On July 05 2011 22:49 Heavenly wrote:On July 05 2011 22:43 mikyaJ wrote:
I like the logic though, a Bronze player shouldn't comment on GSL games, because they're no where near the skill level of them. Well a Master player shouldn't comment either because they're no where near that skill level either.
That's like saying, hoho, this Football announcer should shut his mouth these football players are way better than him. A bronze player is a bronze player because they literally have no understanding of the game, they don't even understand build orders or what unit counters what. A better comparison would be an infant trying to criticize an adult. A masters player at least understands the game enough to realize what is going on. And the football announcer thing is completely irrelevant to all of that, because a football announcer would be the same as an esports commentator. Their job is to understand the game (even though Tastosis failed to do that in this case, hence the criticism) so they will have more specialized knowledge. And most of them are okay at the game minus Totalbiscuit being forever gold. The point is playing is not the same as commenting. A Bronze player could have 3 times the game knowledge of a Masters player. No just no, don't even try to argue that. You get to masters by understanding builds and the game. Let me guess you are below masters? When i started playing I couldnt figure out why pros hardly ever built cannons (except vs zerg) these sorts of things become so obvious once you play the game at a decent level. Players below diamond at least generally will have a poor understanding of play, diamond and masters will often lack the execution of GM etc. You're missing the point. The point is you don't have to be a certain league to have a certain understanding of the game. If you take someone relatively somewhat intelligent and have him watch nothing but Starcraft 2 games all the time for years, yet he never plays the game, he will still have a very high understanding of the game. You do not have to play the game to have a deep understanding of it. It's like this with every game and sport.
This is something a lot of people who watch the game more than they play it believe, which is very understandable, because it justifies their ability to participate in threads like this. Everyone likes to believe they are informed, but that doesn't make it true.
Since you seem to focus on execution, let's throw that out of the equation. Let's take chess, a game which requires no execution whatsoever, just strategy (in SC2 terms). Do you really think someone could become good at chess just by watching professionals play? Because that's what your statement implies. If watching can give you a "high understanding" of a game, then you can learn chess by watching others play.
But it doesn't really work that way. Not for chess, not for anything else. Humans learn through experience first and foremost. Watching high-level SC2 games can give you a good idea as to what is good, but it won't help you understand why. You can watch Protoss players throw down a cannon after 3 gate expanding, and you can theorycraft why they do such a thing, and then you watch one of them not build the cannon, and be fine anyways - and you have no idea what the thought process is behind this decision, and it could be a plethora of different things. However, someone who plays Protoss at a high masters/GM level, and has 3 gate expanded hunderds of times against Zerg, will almost always know why, because he has experienced all the different ways the game can play out from that point.
Watching SC2 only lets you know how a particular game has played out, it give you no indication of how it could have played out, and how that influences the decisions players make. It's always painful for me to read LR threads after a particularly stupid loss, because you have all these Bronze level theorycrafters smugly declaring how terrible a player's strategy was, and how he didn't use the very obvious and easy winning strategy. Pro players aren't fucking stupid, seriously. They can be wrong, and their execution can be bad, but they don't just do shit randomly, there's almost always a good reason.
So, if you don't play the game at a decently high level, think your understanding of it is "good" because you watch it a lot, and you think someone just made an exceptionally stupid decision in a GSL game - then it's most likely you not understanding the game at all, rather than the pro being bad.
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Some nerds claiming starcraft is rocket science made my day.. hahah.. the lengths some people go to support their arguments.
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On July 06 2011 01:51 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 01:47 FairForever wrote:On July 06 2011 01:45 lunchforthesky wrote:
So frustrating to see all the best players get eliminated early every GSL season. Hope MC and Bomber don't go out tomorrow. Maybe they're not the best if they get eliminated early every GSL season.... Well they don't. Everyone accepts that the best players in the world are MVP, Nestea, MC, MKP, Bomber. But we only ever get 1/2 of them in the final 8 and usually only 1 in the final four. But they're still the best in the world because they're more consistant than anyone else and in the case of the first three have won two GSL's. It would be a lot more epic if we had a final 8 of MVP, Nestea, MC, MKP, Bomber, Losira, Polt and MMA.
Well MKP did get knocked out first round for the last 3 GSL regular season, maybe he does not like the format?
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On July 06 2011 01:51 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 01:47 FairForever wrote:On July 06 2011 01:45 lunchforthesky wrote:
So frustrating to see all the best players get eliminated early every GSL season. Hope MC and Bomber don't go out tomorrow. Maybe they're not the best if they get eliminated early every GSL season.... Well they don't. Everyone accepts that the best players in the world are MVP, Nestea, MC, MKP, Bomber.
Not really everyone, but I guess they are the most hyped players nowadays, the ones that get more invites and have longer coattails.. the problem is many new players currently in code S, A and B could kill them in any BoX. A few months from now, none will think of them as even being top 10 imho.
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On July 06 2011 01:45 lunchforthesky wrote:
So frustrating to see all the best players get eliminated early every GSL season. Hope MC and Bomber don't go out tomorrow.
I think people need to just realize that Starcraft 2 has extremely high variance at the progamer levels.
The better players will produce superior results in the long run but maintaining a stretch of consistent dominance seems to be very difficult to achieve in SC2's current state.
DRG is probably in the top 3 of best Zergs in the world (behind Losira & Nestea), yet he is still stuck in Code B.
also, the makeup on the player has become FUCKING HILARIOUS.
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Happy for Zenio he's so underrated. Staying in Code S this long is pretty beastly in itself
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On July 06 2011 02:01 s4life wrote:
Some nerds claiming starcraft is rocket science made my day.. hahah.. the lengths some people go to support their arguments.
It's a shame these threads end up this way every time -_-
It's ok though, Nada will be Champion! He'd been so solid in like every season since i can't even remember. He's fucking due, man!
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Wow. Seriously?
Byun and Zenio over MVP and sC?
Sometimes I just really wonder about this game...
At least NaDa made it, though I'm disappointed supernova didn't.
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EPT
