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can we please leave boxer-related talk out of this lr thread.
if you want to discuss it go make another thread and talk in there. |
On June 29 2011 23:31 NickelMail wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 23:15 pdd wrote:On June 29 2011 23:04 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:47 pdd wrote:On June 29 2011 22:39 Kommander wrote:
Hmmm...is it just me or is MC so much more ahead in terms of metagame and skills than all other Korean protosses out there? Read the DH Top 10 stories article on the front page. Bomber mentions that European Protosses are a lot more evolved than Korean protosses, and compares it to how Korean Terrans are a lot more evolved. I can kind of agree with the sentiment here. Aside from Alicia, MC and Genius (who play very unique styles), there is no real standard Protoss build aside from 1 or 2 base timings, and no real upcoming Protoss has shown any form of inspiration for a long time now. Compare and contrast that with how Naniwa, SaSe, Hasu, White-Ra and the likes play. It is really very refreshing to see the variety in their playstyle while at the same time being extremely solid. Huk was one of the few who actually planned for a long game and shows a pretty good dynamic skillset, but was let down in the past by rather inconsistent play. Hopefully now with the confidence of his 2 European wins in the bag, he can show something inspiring. (Puzzle could be someone to watch out for though. He was always touted as a huge upcoming player, but failed to live up to expectations.) Your so right. Fans of Protoss players believe 4-gate, 6-gate, 1 base DT - IS STANDARD SAFE PLAY. It is not. These are very risky openings that really good players should shy away from because they fail nearly as often as they win, and the results are very random. Terran and Zerg play has standardized favoring econ openings and playing for mid - late game. (For the most part) Protoss are relying heavily on 1-2 base play with limited upside as the game proceeds. Euro Protoss dominate the foreign scene where Protoss is considered the strongets race, not so much in korea. I don't really agree with a lot of your opinions though. While 4 gate is definitely all-in and risky, 1 base DT expand (especially against Terran) is a very viable safe opener (see Genius Virus game). Huk used a variation of this against July in Dreamhack also I believe. 6 gate, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure you can transition out of it as long as you know when you've done enough damage. With regards to Alicia's Void Ray + Gateway aggression into Gold base, I also think it's a very viable strategy. It's not as standard, but the pressure you put if done right allows you to get a big enough lead. Ultimately it depends on the strategy you're looking at, whether you intend to outright kill the opponent or put enough pressure to get a sufficient lead. That's what makes an opening all-in/cheesy or viable. Under your definition, virtually no build can be classified as "cheesy" or "All-Innish" because you predicate that on how much damage the build does. If 4-gate can do sufficient damage, then its not All-In.
It's all-in because you cannot stop. If you do, you're way behind in economy, upgrades and tech. You have to kill the opponent. Same with most Zerg 1 base builds and 1 base 4-7 rax builds.
In 6 gates on the other hand, particularly those with Blink, robo and/or forge upgrades behind it there you have the option of pulling out after doing damage, where you'll have a lead in something (usually economy or upgrades). Also even if you haven't done sufficient damage, you're not entirely out of the game because you usually have +1, ability to tech to colossi or Blink already.
In DT expand builds even if you don't kill any workers, you still can maintain a good enough map control to keep your expansion up long enough to get a lead/keep up with your opponent.
Cheese is a little harder to define. I would just call it something extremely unconventional: proxies, cannon rushes, BC/Thor/mothership rushes, you get my drift.
I feel that cheesy and all-in builds should not always been lumped together. You can have cheesy openings which transition into normal games (fake proxy 2 rax which Boxer always does, 2 rax bunker rushes which are pretty standard against Zergs, Alicia's void ray build). You can also have all-in builds which are not particularly cheesy (4 gate, 4 rax).
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On June 29 2011 23:11 NickelMail wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 22:56 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:32 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:11 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:03 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 21:55 tangwhat wrote:On June 29 2011 21:52 NickelMail wrote:
its just when Alicia's cheesy builds work everyone calls him a genius. When they fail they're shocked and wonder why he would cheese. When thats almost all of his builds. Weird cheesy play. Almost every game. I don't think I've seen you make a single good post since you registered. 2 gate stargate expand PvT and DT Expand PvT as well as 6 gate blink timings PvZ have been around forever. The definition of cheese is that if it gets scouted you're pretty fucked. Turns out all those 3 builds are incredibly safe/solid and transition well into playing a longer game. 1 base voidray and DT , 6 gate Blink Stalker are not "Standard" play. When they fail, u lose cause you have no midgame tech. Terran walks down with stim and medivacs and u die. Their variety builds to mix up your play, but korean protoss, and especially Alecia use them 80% of the time. Just watch the last 10 protoss games at GSL, maybe 1 standard game teching to mid/late game play. Actually, when any strategy fails--you lose. Imagine doing a hatch first and they kill your hatch? Fail. 1Rax FE and they kill your scvs with a drop? Fail. How about a 3GateFE where they kill all your sentries? Fail. Actually any strategy where your main crutch is countered is a strategy that fails. That's kind of why there's usually a "main crutch" to every strategy out there. Open Speedling expand but you don't send out your lings for map control? Fail. Open 2RaxFE but you lose your army to forcefields trying to go up the ramp? Protoss counterattacks and you die. Open ForgeFE (Like Alicia did) and have drops circumvent your wall off? Yes, you also fail. Do you even understand what strategy is? Or are you like Idra and simply pretend that strategies are only allowed if you say so? yes when your "Strategy" fails, you indeed do lose. But you have no idea what a strategy is. 1 Rax FE is not a strategy. 3 gate FE is not a strategy. Opening hatch first is not a strategy. Forge FE is not a strategy. When you know what a strategy is, I'll consider your points, until then, back to school. Actually--you not believing that those opening are strategic choices reveals a LOT about why you define cheese in the way you do  Also, you're wrong. Not even "opinion wise" (which you also are) but you are factually wrong in this case It's actually pretty funny how you're acting right now lol On the bright side, I now understand why you've been saying such silly things on this thread. Thats a bunch of goblygook. An opening is not a strategy, LOL. Its like saying a foundation is a house. It isn't. And all the smiley faces in the world aren't going to make it so.
A foundation is a part of the house...
It's actually the most important part...
It's actually the most ridiculously important part of all buildings....
In fact, everything above the foundation is customizable and purely aesthetic more times than not. The foundation really is the big deal when it comes to house.
I mean, it's okay that you didn't know that. You don't seem to know much about anything anyway.
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On June 29 2011 23:45 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 23:11 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:56 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:32 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:11 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:03 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 21:55 tangwhat wrote:On June 29 2011 21:52 NickelMail wrote:
its just when Alicia's cheesy builds work everyone calls him a genius. When they fail they're shocked and wonder why he would cheese. When thats almost all of his builds. Weird cheesy play. Almost every game. I don't think I've seen you make a single good post since you registered. 2 gate stargate expand PvT and DT Expand PvT as well as 6 gate blink timings PvZ have been around forever. The definition of cheese is that if it gets scouted you're pretty fucked. Turns out all those 3 builds are incredibly safe/solid and transition well into playing a longer game. 1 base voidray and DT , 6 gate Blink Stalker are not "Standard" play. When they fail, u lose cause you have no midgame tech. Terran walks down with stim and medivacs and u die. Their variety builds to mix up your play, but korean protoss, and especially Alecia use them 80% of the time. Just watch the last 10 protoss games at GSL, maybe 1 standard game teching to mid/late game play. Actually, when any strategy fails--you lose. Imagine doing a hatch first and they kill your hatch? Fail. 1Rax FE and they kill your scvs with a drop? Fail. How about a 3GateFE where they kill all your sentries? Fail. Actually any strategy where your main crutch is countered is a strategy that fails. That's kind of why there's usually a "main crutch" to every strategy out there. Open Speedling expand but you don't send out your lings for map control? Fail. Open 2RaxFE but you lose your army to forcefields trying to go up the ramp? Protoss counterattacks and you die. Open ForgeFE (Like Alicia did) and have drops circumvent your wall off? Yes, you also fail. Do you even understand what strategy is? Or are you like Idra and simply pretend that strategies are only allowed if you say so? yes when your "Strategy" fails, you indeed do lose. But you have no idea what a strategy is. 1 Rax FE is not a strategy. 3 gate FE is not a strategy. Opening hatch first is not a strategy. Forge FE is not a strategy. When you know what a strategy is, I'll consider your points, until then, back to school. Actually--you not believing that those opening are strategic choices reveals a LOT about why you define cheese in the way you do Also, you're wrong. Not even "opinion wise" (which you also are) but you are factually wrong in this case It's actually pretty funny how you're acting right now lol On the bright side, I now understand why you've been saying such silly things on this thread. Thats a bunch of goblygook. An opening is not a strategy, LOL. Its like saying a foundation is a house. It isn't. And all the smiley faces in the world aren't going to make it so. A foundation is a part of the house... It's actually the most important part... It's actually the most ridiculously important part of all buildings.... In fact, everything above the foundation is customizable and purely aesthetic more times than not. The foundation really is the big deal when it comes to house. I mean, it's okay that you didn't know that. You don't seem to know much about anything anyway.
LOL, Yes the foundation is an important part of the house, But so is the roof, and the walls, and many other things that make up a house. And yet the fact remains, a foundation, is not a house. Just as an opening is not a strategy.
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On June 29 2011 23:51 NickelMail wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 23:45 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 23:11 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:56 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:32 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:11 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:03 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 21:55 tangwhat wrote:On June 29 2011 21:52 NickelMail wrote:
its just when Alicia's cheesy builds work everyone calls him a genius. When they fail they're shocked and wonder why he would cheese. When thats almost all of his builds. Weird cheesy play. Almost every game. I don't think I've seen you make a single good post since you registered. 2 gate stargate expand PvT and DT Expand PvT as well as 6 gate blink timings PvZ have been around forever. The definition of cheese is that if it gets scouted you're pretty fucked. Turns out all those 3 builds are incredibly safe/solid and transition well into playing a longer game. 1 base voidray and DT , 6 gate Blink Stalker are not "Standard" play. When they fail, u lose cause you have no midgame tech. Terran walks down with stim and medivacs and u die. Their variety builds to mix up your play, but korean protoss, and especially Alecia use them 80% of the time. Just watch the last 10 protoss games at GSL, maybe 1 standard game teching to mid/late game play. Actually, when any strategy fails--you lose. Imagine doing a hatch first and they kill your hatch? Fail. 1Rax FE and they kill your scvs with a drop? Fail. How about a 3GateFE where they kill all your sentries? Fail. Actually any strategy where your main crutch is countered is a strategy that fails. That's kind of why there's usually a "main crutch" to every strategy out there. Open Speedling expand but you don't send out your lings for map control? Fail. Open 2RaxFE but you lose your army to forcefields trying to go up the ramp? Protoss counterattacks and you die. Open ForgeFE (Like Alicia did) and have drops circumvent your wall off? Yes, you also fail. Do you even understand what strategy is? Or are you like Idra and simply pretend that strategies are only allowed if you say so? yes when your "Strategy" fails, you indeed do lose. But you have no idea what a strategy is. 1 Rax FE is not a strategy. 3 gate FE is not a strategy. Opening hatch first is not a strategy. Forge FE is not a strategy. When you know what a strategy is, I'll consider your points, until then, back to school. Actually--you not believing that those opening are strategic choices reveals a LOT about why you define cheese in the way you do Also, you're wrong. Not even "opinion wise" (which you also are) but you are factually wrong in this case It's actually pretty funny how you're acting right now lol On the bright side, I now understand why you've been saying such silly things on this thread. Thats a bunch of goblygook. An opening is not a strategy, LOL. Its like saying a foundation is a house. It isn't. And all the smiley faces in the world aren't going to make it so. A foundation is a part of the house... It's actually the most important part... It's actually the most ridiculously important part of all buildings.... In fact, everything above the foundation is customizable and purely aesthetic more times than not. The foundation really is the big deal when it comes to house. I mean, it's okay that you didn't know that. You don't seem to know much about anything anyway. LOL, Yes the foundation is an important part of the house, But so is the roof, and the walls, and many other things that make up a house. And yet the fact remains, a foundation, is not a house. Just as an opening is not a strategy.
The roof is actually not an important part of the house--it's simply preferred. As are the walls and all the other "stuff"
The only "required" thing for a building is the foundation. Everything else is purely aesthetics.
The most important part of a strategy is actually setting everything up. The rest is purely reactionary to the variables at hand. In fact, the set-up is pretty much the entirety of a strategy while the rest is pure adaptive responses based on experience and expectations.
Unless you think that after an opening the opponent will just lay there and do nothing for you to respond to
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On June 29 2011 23:51 NickelMail wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 23:45 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 23:11 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:56 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:32 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:11 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:03 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 21:55 tangwhat wrote:On June 29 2011 21:52 NickelMail wrote:
its just when Alicia's cheesy builds work everyone calls him a genius. When they fail they're shocked and wonder why he would cheese. When thats almost all of his builds. Weird cheesy play. Almost every game. I don't think I've seen you make a single good post since you registered. 2 gate stargate expand PvT and DT Expand PvT as well as 6 gate blink timings PvZ have been around forever. The definition of cheese is that if it gets scouted you're pretty fucked. Turns out all those 3 builds are incredibly safe/solid and transition well into playing a longer game. 1 base voidray and DT , 6 gate Blink Stalker are not "Standard" play. When they fail, u lose cause you have no midgame tech. Terran walks down with stim and medivacs and u die. Their variety builds to mix up your play, but korean protoss, and especially Alecia use them 80% of the time. Just watch the last 10 protoss games at GSL, maybe 1 standard game teching to mid/late game play. Actually, when any strategy fails--you lose. Imagine doing a hatch first and they kill your hatch? Fail. 1Rax FE and they kill your scvs with a drop? Fail. How about a 3GateFE where they kill all your sentries? Fail. Actually any strategy where your main crutch is countered is a strategy that fails. That's kind of why there's usually a "main crutch" to every strategy out there. Open Speedling expand but you don't send out your lings for map control? Fail. Open 2RaxFE but you lose your army to forcefields trying to go up the ramp? Protoss counterattacks and you die. Open ForgeFE (Like Alicia did) and have drops circumvent your wall off? Yes, you also fail. Do you even understand what strategy is? Or are you like Idra and simply pretend that strategies are only allowed if you say so? yes when your "Strategy" fails, you indeed do lose. But you have no idea what a strategy is. 1 Rax FE is not a strategy. 3 gate FE is not a strategy. Opening hatch first is not a strategy. Forge FE is not a strategy. When you know what a strategy is, I'll consider your points, until then, back to school. Actually--you not believing that those opening are strategic choices reveals a LOT about why you define cheese in the way you do Also, you're wrong. Not even "opinion wise" (which you also are) but you are factually wrong in this case It's actually pretty funny how you're acting right now lol On the bright side, I now understand why you've been saying such silly things on this thread. Thats a bunch of goblygook. An opening is not a strategy, LOL. Its like saying a foundation is a house. It isn't. And all the smiley faces in the world aren't going to make it so. A foundation is a part of the house... It's actually the most important part... It's actually the most ridiculously important part of all buildings.... In fact, everything above the foundation is customizable and purely aesthetic more times than not. The foundation really is the big deal when it comes to house. I mean, it's okay that you didn't know that. You don't seem to know much about anything anyway. LOL, Yes the foundation is an important part of the house, But so is the roof, and the walls, and many other things that make up a house. And yet the fact remains, a foundation, is not a house. Just as an opening is not a strategy.
I don't really want to be involved in the debate here, but I think arguing over the definition on the difference between an opening and a strategy is really a moot point.
The thing to discuss here is about whether Alicia's build was cheesy or not. In which case, yes it was.
Was it all-in? Definitely not.
Is it viable? Perhaps. But I would say so far he's pretty successful with it
Can he play a more standard game? Yes. Go watch him beat Nada last season.
Does he do it often? No.
Should he do it more often? Yes, maybe.
Then why not? Because perhaps he likes to play unconventional.
Does this mean he's a bad player? No.
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On June 29 2011 23:43 Shaxe wrote:
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but MKP has been in up/down for the 3 GSL regular seasons now.
It has and it's beyond depressing
I don't have this with any other player and maybe it's because of how emotional he gets when he loses or because he;s such a young player who is so promising and seems to look incredible even in games he loses(though really awful in the game vs losira) but my heart breaks everytime he loses and I go into some SC2 depression and end up not watching GSL 
he's so much better than a ro32 finish every regular gsl
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On June 30 2011 00:00 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 23:51 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 23:45 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 23:11 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:56 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:32 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:11 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:03 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 21:55 tangwhat wrote:On June 29 2011 21:52 NickelMail wrote:
its just when Alicia's cheesy builds work everyone calls him a genius. When they fail they're shocked and wonder why he would cheese. When thats almost all of his builds. Weird cheesy play. Almost every game. I don't think I've seen you make a single good post since you registered. 2 gate stargate expand PvT and DT Expand PvT as well as 6 gate blink timings PvZ have been around forever. The definition of cheese is that if it gets scouted you're pretty fucked. Turns out all those 3 builds are incredibly safe/solid and transition well into playing a longer game. 1 base voidray and DT , 6 gate Blink Stalker are not "Standard" play. When they fail, u lose cause you have no midgame tech. Terran walks down with stim and medivacs and u die. Their variety builds to mix up your play, but korean protoss, and especially Alecia use them 80% of the time. Just watch the last 10 protoss games at GSL, maybe 1 standard game teching to mid/late game play. Actually, when any strategy fails--you lose. Imagine doing a hatch first and they kill your hatch? Fail. 1Rax FE and they kill your scvs with a drop? Fail. How about a 3GateFE where they kill all your sentries? Fail. Actually any strategy where your main crutch is countered is a strategy that fails. That's kind of why there's usually a "main crutch" to every strategy out there. Open Speedling expand but you don't send out your lings for map control? Fail. Open 2RaxFE but you lose your army to forcefields trying to go up the ramp? Protoss counterattacks and you die. Open ForgeFE (Like Alicia did) and have drops circumvent your wall off? Yes, you also fail. Do you even understand what strategy is? Or are you like Idra and simply pretend that strategies are only allowed if you say so? yes when your "Strategy" fails, you indeed do lose. But you have no idea what a strategy is. 1 Rax FE is not a strategy. 3 gate FE is not a strategy. Opening hatch first is not a strategy. Forge FE is not a strategy. When you know what a strategy is, I'll consider your points, until then, back to school. Actually--you not believing that those opening are strategic choices reveals a LOT about why you define cheese in the way you do Also, you're wrong. Not even "opinion wise" (which you also are) but you are factually wrong in this case It's actually pretty funny how you're acting right now lol On the bright side, I now understand why you've been saying such silly things on this thread. Thats a bunch of goblygook. An opening is not a strategy, LOL. Its like saying a foundation is a house. It isn't. And all the smiley faces in the world aren't going to make it so. A foundation is a part of the house... It's actually the most important part... It's actually the most ridiculously important part of all buildings.... In fact, everything above the foundation is customizable and purely aesthetic more times than not. The foundation really is the big deal when it comes to house. I mean, it's okay that you didn't know that. You don't seem to know much about anything anyway. LOL, Yes the foundation is an important part of the house, But so is the roof, and the walls, and many other things that make up a house. And yet the fact remains, a foundation, is not a house. Just as an opening is not a strategy. I don't really want to be involved in the debate here, but I think arguing over the definition on the difference between an opening and a strategy is really a moot point.
Was literally about to post almost exactly this word for word lol
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On June 29 2011 23:30 KimJongChill wrote:
wat!?!?! Alicia and MKP went down I cant believe it!! At least it looks like Losira's ZvT improved, which will make him a beast in his next matches. Also, wow didn't know Coca was good haha @_@/
Losira hasn't proved his ZvT yet. MKP handed him the game on a silver platter. He went pure marine (He didn't even make a factory) for over 15 minutes.
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Dan Stemkoski
Hopping on a plane back to Seoul in a few short hours now! Amazing vacation but cant wait to cast the #GSL again!
Anyway, seems that MMA and MC are arguing over something via twiter, would love to know what they're talking about :D Will ask Phosgene when he'll post his translation thread (like he doesn't have enough work with 8 matches a day haha :p)
Must read from bottom to top :
Chris Loranger
@ogsmc @slayersmma HI
about 2 hours ago from web
장민철
@SlayerSMMA 한국인데염.. 어제 귀국했음 ㅋㅋ 상준이랑 하는거 봤어여.. 아쉽..
about 2 hours ago in reply to SlayerSMMA from web
Mun Seong Won
@oGsMC 그러게 ㅎㅎ 민철아 한국언제와
about 2 hours ago in reply to oGsMC from web
장민철
@SlayerSMMA 빌드가좋았음.. ㅋ 테란이 차라리 내려가서 벙커박았으면 좋았을법한 상황
about 2 hours ago in reply to SlayerSMMA from web
Mun Seong Won
이야 준식이형 오늘저녁 콩밥 먹고 가더니 기가맥히네
about 2 hours ago from web
Mun Seong Won
이야 준식이형 기가 맥히네
about 2 hours ago from web
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On June 30 2011 00:00 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 23:51 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 23:45 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 23:11 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:56 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:32 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:11 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:03 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 21:55 tangwhat wrote:On June 29 2011 21:52 NickelMail wrote:
its just when Alicia's cheesy builds work everyone calls him a genius. When they fail they're shocked and wonder why he would cheese. When thats almost all of his builds. Weird cheesy play. Almost every game. I don't think I've seen you make a single good post since you registered. 2 gate stargate expand PvT and DT Expand PvT as well as 6 gate blink timings PvZ have been around forever. The definition of cheese is that if it gets scouted you're pretty fucked. Turns out all those 3 builds are incredibly safe/solid and transition well into playing a longer game. 1 base voidray and DT , 6 gate Blink Stalker are not "Standard" play. When they fail, u lose cause you have no midgame tech. Terran walks down with stim and medivacs and u die. Their variety builds to mix up your play, but korean protoss, and especially Alecia use them 80% of the time. Just watch the last 10 protoss games at GSL, maybe 1 standard game teching to mid/late game play. Actually, when any strategy fails--you lose. Imagine doing a hatch first and they kill your hatch? Fail. 1Rax FE and they kill your scvs with a drop? Fail. How about a 3GateFE where they kill all your sentries? Fail. Actually any strategy where your main crutch is countered is a strategy that fails. That's kind of why there's usually a "main crutch" to every strategy out there. Open Speedling expand but you don't send out your lings for map control? Fail. Open 2RaxFE but you lose your army to forcefields trying to go up the ramp? Protoss counterattacks and you die. Open ForgeFE (Like Alicia did) and have drops circumvent your wall off? Yes, you also fail. Do you even understand what strategy is? Or are you like Idra and simply pretend that strategies are only allowed if you say so? yes when your "Strategy" fails, you indeed do lose. But you have no idea what a strategy is. 1 Rax FE is not a strategy. 3 gate FE is not a strategy. Opening hatch first is not a strategy. Forge FE is not a strategy. When you know what a strategy is, I'll consider your points, until then, back to school. Actually--you not believing that those opening are strategic choices reveals a LOT about why you define cheese in the way you do Also, you're wrong. Not even "opinion wise" (which you also are) but you are factually wrong in this case It's actually pretty funny how you're acting right now lol On the bright side, I now understand why you've been saying such silly things on this thread. Thats a bunch of goblygook. An opening is not a strategy, LOL. Its like saying a foundation is a house. It isn't. And all the smiley faces in the world aren't going to make it so. A foundation is a part of the house... It's actually the most important part... It's actually the most ridiculously important part of all buildings.... In fact, everything above the foundation is customizable and purely aesthetic more times than not. The foundation really is the big deal when it comes to house. I mean, it's okay that you didn't know that. You don't seem to know much about anything anyway. LOL, Yes the foundation is an important part of the house, But so is the roof, and the walls, and many other things that make up a house. And yet the fact remains, a foundation, is not a house. Just as an opening is not a strategy. I don't really want to be involved in the debate here, but I think arguing over the definition on the difference between an opening and a strategy is really a moot point. The thing to discuss here is about whether Alicia's build was cheesy or not. In which case, yes it was. Was it all-in? Definitely not. Is it viable? Perhaps. Can he play a more standard game? Yes. Go watch him beat Nada last season. Does he do it often? No. Should he do it more often? Yes, maybe. Then why not? Because perhaps he likes to play unconventional. Does this mean he's a bad player? No.
I agree.
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On June 30 2011 00:07 mikyaJ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 23:30 KimJongChill wrote:
wat!?!?! Alicia and MKP went down I cant believe it!! At least it looks like Losira's ZvT improved, which will make him a beast in his next matches. Also, wow didn't know Coca was good haha @_@/ Losira hasn't proved his ZvT yet. MKP handed him the game on a silver platter. He went pure marine (He didn't even make a factory) for over 15 minutes.
Oh okay thanks, I couldn't see the games, but I guess that's why they were not recommended.
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On June 30 2011 00:00 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 23:51 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 23:45 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 23:11 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:56 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:32 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:11 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:03 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 21:55 tangwhat wrote:On June 29 2011 21:52 NickelMail wrote:
its just when Alicia's cheesy builds work everyone calls him a genius. When they fail they're shocked and wonder why he would cheese. When thats almost all of his builds. Weird cheesy play. Almost every game. I don't think I've seen you make a single good post since you registered. 2 gate stargate expand PvT and DT Expand PvT as well as 6 gate blink timings PvZ have been around forever. The definition of cheese is that if it gets scouted you're pretty fucked. Turns out all those 3 builds are incredibly safe/solid and transition well into playing a longer game. 1 base voidray and DT , 6 gate Blink Stalker are not "Standard" play. When they fail, u lose cause you have no midgame tech. Terran walks down with stim and medivacs and u die. Their variety builds to mix up your play, but korean protoss, and especially Alecia use them 80% of the time. Just watch the last 10 protoss games at GSL, maybe 1 standard game teching to mid/late game play. Actually, when any strategy fails--you lose. Imagine doing a hatch first and they kill your hatch? Fail. 1Rax FE and they kill your scvs with a drop? Fail. How about a 3GateFE where they kill all your sentries? Fail. Actually any strategy where your main crutch is countered is a strategy that fails. That's kind of why there's usually a "main crutch" to every strategy out there. Open Speedling expand but you don't send out your lings for map control? Fail. Open 2RaxFE but you lose your army to forcefields trying to go up the ramp? Protoss counterattacks and you die. Open ForgeFE (Like Alicia did) and have drops circumvent your wall off? Yes, you also fail. Do you even understand what strategy is? Or are you like Idra and simply pretend that strategies are only allowed if you say so? yes when your "Strategy" fails, you indeed do lose. But you have no idea what a strategy is. 1 Rax FE is not a strategy. 3 gate FE is not a strategy. Opening hatch first is not a strategy. Forge FE is not a strategy. When you know what a strategy is, I'll consider your points, until then, back to school. Actually--you not believing that those opening are strategic choices reveals a LOT about why you define cheese in the way you do Also, you're wrong. Not even "opinion wise" (which you also are) but you are factually wrong in this case It's actually pretty funny how you're acting right now lol On the bright side, I now understand why you've been saying such silly things on this thread. Thats a bunch of goblygook. An opening is not a strategy, LOL. Its like saying a foundation is a house. It isn't. And all the smiley faces in the world aren't going to make it so. A foundation is a part of the house... It's actually the most important part... It's actually the most ridiculously important part of all buildings.... In fact, everything above the foundation is customizable and purely aesthetic more times than not. The foundation really is the big deal when it comes to house. I mean, it's okay that you didn't know that. You don't seem to know much about anything anyway. LOL, Yes the foundation is an important part of the house, But so is the roof, and the walls, and many other things that make up a house. And yet the fact remains, a foundation, is not a house. Just as an opening is not a strategy. I don't really want to be involved in the debate here, but I think arguing over the definition on the difference between an opening and a strategy is really a moot point. The thing to discuss here is about whether Alicia's build was cheesy or not. In which case, yes it was. Was it all-in? Definitely not. Is it viable? Perhaps. But I would say so far he's pretty successful with it Can he play a more standard game? Yes. Go watch him beat Nada last season. Does he do it often? No. Should he do it more often? Yes, maybe. Then why not? Because perhaps he likes to play unconventional. Does this mean he's a bad player? No.
You're right. I'll just ignore him then.
None of what Alicia did was out of the ordinary tactics wise. I've seen many blink stalker players (Nazgul beating Idra for example) block off their ramp with a pylon. I've also seen many Voidray/Gateway pressure builds. Apart from not cancelling the nexus he obviously wanted to cancel, nothing Alicia did was out of the ordinary.
Making a voidray and having it run around the map poking at overlords is not cheesy.
Making 4 Gateways and doing a one base push with them is also not cheesy play.
It seemed to me that Alicia's biggest 3 mistakes was not cancelling the nexus, not scouting properly and not waiting for the pylon to finish building at the gold expansion.
He wasted 400 minerals on a nexus he wasn't using. He didn't scout the map well enough to realize that he could get flanked by zerglings. He also didn't wait for something a bit tougher than sentries to join the fight.
Those tactical mistakes cost him his army which put him far enough behind to cost him the game. If he had been more adaptive in his play--he could've salvaged something.
Forgot to cancel the nexus--I guess I'm expanding and begin to build up troops. Grab a 2nd Voidray, build a 5th gate, etc...
I don't know where the zerglings are... send out a stalker to run around the third to make sure you know where the enemy troops are as you finally push out.
Just little things like that which I feel are very unlike Alicia who I normally idolize for his good decision making skills.
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On June 30 2011 00:18 NickelMail wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 00:00 pdd wrote:On June 29 2011 23:51 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 23:45 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 23:11 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:56 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:32 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:11 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:03 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 21:55 tangwhat wrote:
[quote]
I don't think I've seen you make a single good post since you registered. 2 gate stargate expand PvT and DT Expand PvT as well as 6 gate blink timings PvZ have been around forever. The definition of cheese is that if it gets scouted you're pretty fucked. Turns out all those 3 builds are incredibly safe/solid and transition well into playing a longer game. 1 base voidray and DT , 6 gate Blink Stalker are not "Standard" play. When they fail, u lose cause you have no midgame tech. Terran walks down with stim and medivacs and u die. Their variety builds to mix up your play, but korean protoss, and especially Alecia use them 80% of the time. Just watch the last 10 protoss games at GSL, maybe 1 standard game teching to mid/late game play. Actually, when any strategy fails--you lose. Imagine doing a hatch first and they kill your hatch? Fail. 1Rax FE and they kill your scvs with a drop? Fail. How about a 3GateFE where they kill all your sentries? Fail. Actually any strategy where your main crutch is countered is a strategy that fails. That's kind of why there's usually a "main crutch" to every strategy out there. Open Speedling expand but you don't send out your lings for map control? Fail. Open 2RaxFE but you lose your army to forcefields trying to go up the ramp? Protoss counterattacks and you die. Open ForgeFE (Like Alicia did) and have drops circumvent your wall off? Yes, you also fail. Do you even understand what strategy is? Or are you like Idra and simply pretend that strategies are only allowed if you say so? yes when your "Strategy" fails, you indeed do lose. But you have no idea what a strategy is. 1 Rax FE is not a strategy. 3 gate FE is not a strategy. Opening hatch first is not a strategy. Forge FE is not a strategy. When you know what a strategy is, I'll consider your points, until then, back to school. Actually--you not believing that those opening are strategic choices reveals a LOT about why you define cheese in the way you do Also, you're wrong. Not even "opinion wise" (which you also are) but you are factually wrong in this case It's actually pretty funny how you're acting right now lol On the bright side, I now understand why you've been saying such silly things on this thread. Thats a bunch of goblygook. An opening is not a strategy, LOL. Its like saying a foundation is a house. It isn't. And all the smiley faces in the world aren't going to make it so. A foundation is a part of the house... It's actually the most important part... It's actually the most ridiculously important part of all buildings.... In fact, everything above the foundation is customizable and purely aesthetic more times than not. The foundation really is the big deal when it comes to house. I mean, it's okay that you didn't know that. You don't seem to know much about anything anyway. LOL, Yes the foundation is an important part of the house, But so is the roof, and the walls, and many other things that make up a house. And yet the fact remains, a foundation, is not a house. Just as an opening is not a strategy. I don't really want to be involved in the debate here, but I think arguing over the definition on the difference between an opening and a strategy is really a moot point. The thing to discuss here is about whether Alicia's build was cheesy or not. In which case, yes it was. Was it all-in? Definitely not. Is it viable? Perhaps. Can he play a more standard game? Yes. Go watch him beat Nada last season. Does he do it often? No. Should he do it more often? Yes, maybe. Then why not? Because perhaps he likes to play unconventional. Does this mean he's a bad player? No. I agree. Except with the Opening/Strategy point, if your going to argue strategies, know what they are.
User was warned for this post
User was banned for this post.
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On June 30 2011 00:10 MrCon wrote:
Dan Stemkoski
Hopping on a plane back to Seoul in a few short hours now! Amazing vacation but cant wait to cast the #GSL again!
Anyway, seems that MMA and MC are arguing over something via twiter, would love to know what they're talking about :D Will ask Phosgene when he'll post his translation thread (like he doesn't have enough work with 8 matches a day haha :p)
Must read from bottom to top :
Chris Loranger
@ogsmc @slayersmma HI
about 2 hours ago from web
장민철
@SlayerSMMA 한국인데염.. 어제 귀국했음 ㅋㅋ 상준이랑 하는거 봤어여.. 아쉽..
about 2 hours ago in reply to SlayerSMMA from web
Mun Seong Won
@oGsMC 그러게 ㅎㅎ 민철아 한국언제와
about 2 hours ago in reply to oGsMC from web
장민철
@SlayerSMMA 빌드가좋았음.. ㅋ 테란이 차라리 내려가서 벙커박았으면 좋았을법한 상황
about 2 hours ago in reply to SlayerSMMA from web
Mun Seong Won
이야 준식이형 오늘저녁 콩밥 먹고 가더니 기가맥히네
about 2 hours ago from web
Mun Seong Won
이야 준식이형 기가 맥히네
about 2 hours ago from web
My Korean is bad, but it seems like MMA asked when MC was coming back to Korea in the third tweet, so I doubt it's an argument or anything. Some about rice or lunch was mentioned, and maybe the time??
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On June 29 2011 23:59 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 23:51 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 23:45 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 23:11 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:56 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:32 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:11 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:03 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 21:55 tangwhat wrote:On June 29 2011 21:52 NickelMail wrote:
its just when Alicia's cheesy builds work everyone calls him a genius. When they fail they're shocked and wonder why he would cheese. When thats almost all of his builds. Weird cheesy play. Almost every game. I don't think I've seen you make a single good post since you registered. 2 gate stargate expand PvT and DT Expand PvT as well as 6 gate blink timings PvZ have been around forever. The definition of cheese is that if it gets scouted you're pretty fucked. Turns out all those 3 builds are incredibly safe/solid and transition well into playing a longer game. 1 base voidray and DT , 6 gate Blink Stalker are not "Standard" play. When they fail, u lose cause you have no midgame tech. Terran walks down with stim and medivacs and u die. Their variety builds to mix up your play, but korean protoss, and especially Alecia use them 80% of the time. Just watch the last 10 protoss games at GSL, maybe 1 standard game teching to mid/late game play. Actually, when any strategy fails--you lose. Imagine doing a hatch first and they kill your hatch? Fail. 1Rax FE and they kill your scvs with a drop? Fail. How about a 3GateFE where they kill all your sentries? Fail. Actually any strategy where your main crutch is countered is a strategy that fails. That's kind of why there's usually a "main crutch" to every strategy out there. Open Speedling expand but you don't send out your lings for map control? Fail. Open 2RaxFE but you lose your army to forcefields trying to go up the ramp? Protoss counterattacks and you die. Open ForgeFE (Like Alicia did) and have drops circumvent your wall off? Yes, you also fail. Do you even understand what strategy is? Or are you like Idra and simply pretend that strategies are only allowed if you say so? yes when your "Strategy" fails, you indeed do lose. But you have no idea what a strategy is. 1 Rax FE is not a strategy. 3 gate FE is not a strategy. Opening hatch first is not a strategy. Forge FE is not a strategy. When you know what a strategy is, I'll consider your points, until then, back to school. Actually--you not believing that those opening are strategic choices reveals a LOT about why you define cheese in the way you do Also, you're wrong. Not even "opinion wise" (which you also are) but you are factually wrong in this case It's actually pretty funny how you're acting right now lol On the bright side, I now understand why you've been saying such silly things on this thread. Thats a bunch of goblygook. An opening is not a strategy, LOL. Its like saying a foundation is a house. It isn't. And all the smiley faces in the world aren't going to make it so. A foundation is a part of the house... It's actually the most important part... It's actually the most ridiculously important part of all buildings.... In fact, everything above the foundation is customizable and purely aesthetic more times than not. The foundation really is the big deal when it comes to house. I mean, it's okay that you didn't know that. You don't seem to know much about anything anyway. LOL, Yes the foundation is an important part of the house, But so is the roof, and the walls, and many other things that make up a house. And yet the fact remains, a foundation, is not a house. Just as an opening is not a strategy. The roof is actually not an important part of the house--it's simply preferred. As are the walls and all the other "stuff" The only "required" thing for a building is the foundation. Everything else is purely aesthetics.
I know this is a huge offtopic but as an architect I simply can't get this one slide. What the hell are you talking about? A house is defined by walls and a ceiling, foundation isn't even an used element in some cultures and some ways of building.
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On June 30 2011 00:27 GrungyMunchy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 23:59 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 23:51 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 23:45 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 23:11 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:56 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:32 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:11 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:03 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 21:55 tangwhat wrote:
[quote]
I don't think I've seen you make a single good post since you registered. 2 gate stargate expand PvT and DT Expand PvT as well as 6 gate blink timings PvZ have been around forever. The definition of cheese is that if it gets scouted you're pretty fucked. Turns out all those 3 builds are incredibly safe/solid and transition well into playing a longer game. 1 base voidray and DT , 6 gate Blink Stalker are not "Standard" play. When they fail, u lose cause you have no midgame tech. Terran walks down with stim and medivacs and u die. Their variety builds to mix up your play, but korean protoss, and especially Alecia use them 80% of the time. Just watch the last 10 protoss games at GSL, maybe 1 standard game teching to mid/late game play. Actually, when any strategy fails--you lose. Imagine doing a hatch first and they kill your hatch? Fail. 1Rax FE and they kill your scvs with a drop? Fail. How about a 3GateFE where they kill all your sentries? Fail. Actually any strategy where your main crutch is countered is a strategy that fails. That's kind of why there's usually a "main crutch" to every strategy out there. Open Speedling expand but you don't send out your lings for map control? Fail. Open 2RaxFE but you lose your army to forcefields trying to go up the ramp? Protoss counterattacks and you die. Open ForgeFE (Like Alicia did) and have drops circumvent your wall off? Yes, you also fail. Do you even understand what strategy is? Or are you like Idra and simply pretend that strategies are only allowed if you say so? yes when your "Strategy" fails, you indeed do lose. But you have no idea what a strategy is. 1 Rax FE is not a strategy. 3 gate FE is not a strategy. Opening hatch first is not a strategy. Forge FE is not a strategy. When you know what a strategy is, I'll consider your points, until then, back to school. Actually--you not believing that those opening are strategic choices reveals a LOT about why you define cheese in the way you do Also, you're wrong. Not even "opinion wise" (which you also are) but you are factually wrong in this case It's actually pretty funny how you're acting right now lol On the bright side, I now understand why you've been saying such silly things on this thread. Thats a bunch of goblygook. An opening is not a strategy, LOL. Its like saying a foundation is a house. It isn't. And all the smiley faces in the world aren't going to make it so. A foundation is a part of the house... It's actually the most important part... It's actually the most ridiculously important part of all buildings.... In fact, everything above the foundation is customizable and purely aesthetic more times than not. The foundation really is the big deal when it comes to house. I mean, it's okay that you didn't know that. You don't seem to know much about anything anyway. LOL, Yes the foundation is an important part of the house, But so is the roof, and the walls, and many other things that make up a house. And yet the fact remains, a foundation, is not a house. Just as an opening is not a strategy. The roof is actually not an important part of the house--it's simply preferred. As are the walls and all the other "stuff" The only "required" thing for a building is the foundation. Everything else is purely aesthetics. I know this is a huge offtopic but as an architect I simply can't get this one slide. What the hell are you talking about? A house is defined by walls and a ceiling, foundation isn't even an used element in some cultures and some ways of building.
Amen.
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On June 30 2011 00:27 GrungyMunchy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 23:59 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 23:51 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 23:45 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 23:11 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:56 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:32 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:11 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:03 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 21:55 tangwhat wrote:
[quote]
I don't think I've seen you make a single good post since you registered. 2 gate stargate expand PvT and DT Expand PvT as well as 6 gate blink timings PvZ have been around forever. The definition of cheese is that if it gets scouted you're pretty fucked. Turns out all those 3 builds are incredibly safe/solid and transition well into playing a longer game. 1 base voidray and DT , 6 gate Blink Stalker are not "Standard" play. When they fail, u lose cause you have no midgame tech. Terran walks down with stim and medivacs and u die. Their variety builds to mix up your play, but korean protoss, and especially Alecia use them 80% of the time. Just watch the last 10 protoss games at GSL, maybe 1 standard game teching to mid/late game play. Actually, when any strategy fails--you lose. Imagine doing a hatch first and they kill your hatch? Fail. 1Rax FE and they kill your scvs with a drop? Fail. How about a 3GateFE where they kill all your sentries? Fail. Actually any strategy where your main crutch is countered is a strategy that fails. That's kind of why there's usually a "main crutch" to every strategy out there. Open Speedling expand but you don't send out your lings for map control? Fail. Open 2RaxFE but you lose your army to forcefields trying to go up the ramp? Protoss counterattacks and you die. Open ForgeFE (Like Alicia did) and have drops circumvent your wall off? Yes, you also fail. Do you even understand what strategy is? Or are you like Idra and simply pretend that strategies are only allowed if you say so? yes when your "Strategy" fails, you indeed do lose. But you have no idea what a strategy is. 1 Rax FE is not a strategy. 3 gate FE is not a strategy. Opening hatch first is not a strategy. Forge FE is not a strategy. When you know what a strategy is, I'll consider your points, until then, back to school. Actually--you not believing that those opening are strategic choices reveals a LOT about why you define cheese in the way you do Also, you're wrong. Not even "opinion wise" (which you also are) but you are factually wrong in this case It's actually pretty funny how you're acting right now lol On the bright side, I now understand why you've been saying such silly things on this thread. Thats a bunch of goblygook. An opening is not a strategy, LOL. Its like saying a foundation is a house. It isn't. And all the smiley faces in the world aren't going to make it so. A foundation is a part of the house... It's actually the most important part... It's actually the most ridiculously important part of all buildings.... In fact, everything above the foundation is customizable and purely aesthetic more times than not. The foundation really is the big deal when it comes to house. I mean, it's okay that you didn't know that. You don't seem to know much about anything anyway. LOL, Yes the foundation is an important part of the house, But so is the roof, and the walls, and many other things that make up a house. And yet the fact remains, a foundation, is not a house. Just as an opening is not a strategy. The roof is actually not an important part of the house--it's simply preferred. As are the walls and all the other "stuff" The only "required" thing for a building is the foundation. Everything else is purely aesthetics. I know this is a huge offtopic but as an architect I simply can't get this one slide. What the hell are you talking about? A house is defined by walls and a ceiling, foundation isn't even an used element in some cultures and some ways of building.
Cement foundations the way it's used in Modern first world countries are not used by all cultures--but that doesn't mean other houses "don't have a foundation"
A lot of houses in the Philippines for example use timber to create the base for a house by way of multiple legs to hold up the rest of the house. The walls and ceiling could be anything you really want it to be. Any material, any shape, any strength. In all cases the steps in building it is the same.
Step 1:
Make a foundation.
Step 2:
Look at architect's design to figure out how the rectangles and trapezoids fit on top of the flat slab of wood/concrete/etc... you have in place.
Construction wise that is.
Remove the foundation and you're in a tent.
EDIT: Assuming you're the guy building the house that is. Most people just live in it.
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Poor MKP. He does really bad in this type of one off setup. He plays better after feeling out opponent losing first couple then coming back and that requires a series.
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On June 30 2011 00:24 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 00:10 MrCon wrote:
Dan Stemkoski
Hopping on a plane back to Seoul in a few short hours now! Amazing vacation but cant wait to cast the #GSL again!
Anyway, seems that MMA and MC are arguing over something via twiter, would love to know what they're talking about :D Will ask Phosgene when he'll post his translation thread (like he doesn't have enough work with 8 matches a day haha :p)
Must read from bottom to top :
Chris Loranger
@ogsmc @slayersmma HI
about 2 hours ago from web
장민철
@SlayerSMMA 한국인데염.. 어제 귀국했음 ㅋㅋ 상준이랑 하는거 봤어여.. 아쉽..
about 2 hours ago in reply to SlayerSMMA from web
Mun Seong Won
@oGsMC 그러게 ㅎㅎ 민철아 한국언제와
about 2 hours ago in reply to oGsMC from web
장민철
@SlayerSMMA 빌드가좋았음.. ㅋ 테란이 차라리 내려가서 벙커박았으면 좋았을법한 상황
about 2 hours ago in reply to SlayerSMMA from web
Mun Seong Won
이야 준식이형 오늘저녁 콩밥 먹고 가더니 기가맥히네
about 2 hours ago from web
Mun Seong Won
이야 준식이형 기가 맥히네
about 2 hours ago from web My Korean is bad, but it seems like MMA asked when MC was coming back to Korea in the third tweet, so I doubt it's an argument or anything. Some about rice or lunch was mentioned, and maybe the time??
Ha, that makes sense as MC was abroad, thanks
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Wow MKP..He seems pretty terrible in this setup, really needs a game or two to figure out his oppenent.
And Alicia, eh. TBH I think he's overrated. Gorgeous PvP, but his PvZ and PvT aren't top-notch like everyone else thinks.
and FD nooooooooooooooooo
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EPT
