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can we please leave boxer-related talk out of this lr thread.
if you want to discuss it go make another thread and talk in there. |
On June 29 2011 22:32 NickelMail wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 22:11 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:03 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 21:55 tangwhat wrote:On June 29 2011 21:52 NickelMail wrote:
its just when Alicia's cheesy builds work everyone calls him a genius. When they fail they're shocked and wonder why he would cheese. When thats almost all of his builds. Weird cheesy play. Almost every game. I don't think I've seen you make a single good post since you registered. 2 gate stargate expand PvT and DT Expand PvT as well as 6 gate blink timings PvZ have been around forever. The definition of cheese is that if it gets scouted you're pretty fucked. Turns out all those 3 builds are incredibly safe/solid and transition well into playing a longer game. 1 base voidray and DT , 6 gate Blink Stalker are not "Standard" play. When they fail, u lose cause you have no midgame tech. Terran walks down with stim and medivacs and u die. Their variety builds to mix up your play, but korean protoss, and especially Alecia use them 80% of the time. Just watch the last 10 protoss games at GSL, maybe 1 standard game teching to mid/late game play. Actually, when any strategy fails--you lose. Imagine doing a hatch first and they kill your hatch? Fail. 1Rax FE and they kill your scvs with a drop? Fail. How about a 3GateFE where they kill all your sentries? Fail. Actually any strategy where your main crutch is countered is a strategy that fails. That's kind of why there's usually a "main crutch" to every strategy out there. Open Speedling expand but you don't send out your lings for map control? Fail. Open 2RaxFE but you lose your army to forcefields trying to go up the ramp? Protoss counterattacks and you die. Open ForgeFE (Like Alicia did) and have drops circumvent your wall off? Yes, you also fail. Do you even understand what strategy is? Or are you like Idra and simply pretend that strategies are only allowed if you say so? yes when your "Strategy" fails, you indeed do lose. But you have no idea what a strategy is. 1 Rax FE is not a strategy. 3 gate FE is not a strategy. Opening hatch first is not a strategy. Forge FE is not a strategy. When you know what a strategy is, I'll consider your points, until then, back to school.
Actually--you not believing that those opening are strategic choices reveals a LOT about why you define cheese in the way you do 
Also, you're wrong. Not even "opinion wise" (which you also are) but you are factually wrong in this case
It's actually pretty funny how you're acting right now lol
On the bright side, I now understand why you've been saying such silly things on this thread.
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On June 29 2011 22:20 Sorkoas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 22:19 MrCon wrote:On June 29 2011 22:14 Sorkoas wrote:
MrCon clearly has issues and shouldn't be allowed to admin these threads.
Yes, I'm mad. Wat. You're mad about what ? Your immature bias opinions about MKP
Nah, MrCon is probably one of the most regular and effective LR makers. I'm extremely frustrated MKP didn't make it out too...or at least stay in Code S.
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On June 29 2011 22:47 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 22:39 Kommander wrote:
Hmmm...is it just me or is MC so much more ahead in terms of metagame and skills than all other Korean protosses out there? Read the DH Top 10 stories article on the front page. Bomber mentions that European Protosses are a lot more evolved than Korean protosses, and compares it to how Korean Terrans are a lot more evolved. I can kind of agree with the sentiment here. Aside from Alicia, MC and Genius (who play very unique styles), there is no real standard Protoss build aside from 1 or 2 base timings, and no real upcoming Protoss has shown any form of inspiration for a long time now. Compare and contrast that with how Naniwa, SaSe, Hasu, White-Ra and the likes play. It is really very refreshing to see the variety in their playstyle while at the same time being extremely solid. Huk was one of the few who actually planned for a long game and shows a pretty good dynamic skillset, but was let down in the past by rather inconsistent play. Hopefully now with the confidence of his 2 European wins in the bag, he can show something inspiring. (Puzzle could be someone to watch out for though. He was always touted as a huge upcoming player, but failed to live up to expectations.)
Your so right. Fans of Protoss players believe 4-gate, 6-gate, 1 base DT - IS STANDARD SAFE PLAY. It is not. These are very risky openings that really good players should shy away from because they fail nearly as often as they win, and the results are very random.
Terran and Zerg play has standardized favoring econ openings and playing for mid - late game. (For the most part) Protoss are relying heavily on 1-2 base play with limited upside as the game proceeds.
Euro Protoss dominate the foreign scene where Protoss is considered the strongets race, not so much in korea.
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another strange day of results :s
well at least im pretty happy to see that everybody fail with their liquidbet =)
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But that's one of the irks to starting LR threads. You will get a lot of whine by so many people and you have to please so many stakeholders...
I slowly learnt, when I was making LR threads, that everyone will bitch about everything (even if I made a thread on 5 minutes notice). There were people complaining about how they had to click so many spoilers to get the overall results and then on the other hand there were people complaining about how I didn't spoiler individual sets (even when it was just a single series with the same players).
To make things less controversial though, I would suggest to OP not to include personal opinions in the OP. It just saves a lot of inconvenience.
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On June 29 2011 22:56 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 22:32 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:11 lorkac wrote:On June 29 2011 22:03 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 21:55 tangwhat wrote:On June 29 2011 21:52 NickelMail wrote:
its just when Alicia's cheesy builds work everyone calls him a genius. When they fail they're shocked and wonder why he would cheese. When thats almost all of his builds. Weird cheesy play. Almost every game. I don't think I've seen you make a single good post since you registered. 2 gate stargate expand PvT and DT Expand PvT as well as 6 gate blink timings PvZ have been around forever. The definition of cheese is that if it gets scouted you're pretty fucked. Turns out all those 3 builds are incredibly safe/solid and transition well into playing a longer game. 1 base voidray and DT , 6 gate Blink Stalker are not "Standard" play. When they fail, u lose cause you have no midgame tech. Terran walks down with stim and medivacs and u die. Their variety builds to mix up your play, but korean protoss, and especially Alecia use them 80% of the time. Just watch the last 10 protoss games at GSL, maybe 1 standard game teching to mid/late game play. Actually, when any strategy fails--you lose. Imagine doing a hatch first and they kill your hatch? Fail. 1Rax FE and they kill your scvs with a drop? Fail. How about a 3GateFE where they kill all your sentries? Fail. Actually any strategy where your main crutch is countered is a strategy that fails. That's kind of why there's usually a "main crutch" to every strategy out there. Open Speedling expand but you don't send out your lings for map control? Fail. Open 2RaxFE but you lose your army to forcefields trying to go up the ramp? Protoss counterattacks and you die. Open ForgeFE (Like Alicia did) and have drops circumvent your wall off? Yes, you also fail. Do you even understand what strategy is? Or are you like Idra and simply pretend that strategies are only allowed if you say so? yes when your "Strategy" fails, you indeed do lose. But you have no idea what a strategy is. 1 Rax FE is not a strategy. 3 gate FE is not a strategy. Opening hatch first is not a strategy. Forge FE is not a strategy. When you know what a strategy is, I'll consider your points, until then, back to school. Actually--you not believing that those opening are strategic choices reveals a LOT about why you define cheese in the way you do Also, you're wrong. Not even "opinion wise" (which you also are) but you are factually wrong in this case It's actually pretty funny how you're acting right now lol On the bright side, I now understand why you've been saying such silly things on this thread.
Thats a bunch of goblygook. An opening is not a strategy, LOL. Its like saying a foundation is a house. It isn't. And all the smiley faces in the world aren't going to make it so.
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On June 29 2011 22:14 tangwhat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 22:13 The KY wrote:On June 29 2011 22:08 ThatGuy89 wrote:
so as a toss player its good to know that:
4 gate = cheese
DT opening = cheese
SG = cheese
6 gate = cheese
so basically all we can do as toss is expand early, without applying any pressure cos that'd be cheesey. Then we cant use DTs or any air units at all, and if at any point i have 6 gates, im cheesing again
dam, now i know why i cant get out of platinum -_-
seriously some people are just crazy when shit goes down in tournaments that they dont agree with. Its a game, support the players you like but leave it at that. Dont turn it into something religious Nothing to do with protoss, unless every player expands early without applying pressure, with a view to only acquire more expansions, it's cheese according to some dense people. A race to get the most bases in the game. Ah truly a worthy game for the capitalist masses.
And, of course, if the person who has the most bases LOSES...well get ready for some serial balance whiners to crawl out of the woodwork.
Remember, kids, bases = good, attacking = bad.
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Just skimmed through some of the VODs today. What really hit me today was that SC2, contrary to a popular opinion, is in a way so much like BW that it's not always the most flash player that wins but rather it's the player that makes the least mistakes. These players are consistent because they don't have such an obvious flaw (MKP or MMA) in their game even though their play might seem boring to the viewers.
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On June 29 2011 23:04 NickelMail wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 22:47 pdd wrote:On June 29 2011 22:39 Kommander wrote:
Hmmm...is it just me or is MC so much more ahead in terms of metagame and skills than all other Korean protosses out there? Read the DH Top 10 stories article on the front page. Bomber mentions that European Protosses are a lot more evolved than Korean protosses, and compares it to how Korean Terrans are a lot more evolved. I can kind of agree with the sentiment here. Aside from Alicia, MC and Genius (who play very unique styles), there is no real standard Protoss build aside from 1 or 2 base timings, and no real upcoming Protoss has shown any form of inspiration for a long time now. Compare and contrast that with how Naniwa, SaSe, Hasu, White-Ra and the likes play. It is really very refreshing to see the variety in their playstyle while at the same time being extremely solid. Huk was one of the few who actually planned for a long game and shows a pretty good dynamic skillset, but was let down in the past by rather inconsistent play. Hopefully now with the confidence of his 2 European wins in the bag, he can show something inspiring. (Puzzle could be someone to watch out for though. He was always touted as a huge upcoming player, but failed to live up to expectations.) Your so right. Fans of Protoss players believe 4-gate, 6-gate, 1 base DT - IS STANDARD SAFE PLAY. It is not. These are very risky openings that really good players should shy away from because they fail nearly as often as they win, and the results are very random. Terran and Zerg play has standardized favoring econ openings and playing for mid - late game. (For the most part) Protoss are relying heavily on 1-2 base play with limited upside as the game proceeds. Euro Protoss dominate the foreign scene where Protoss is considered the strongets race, not so much in korea.
I don't really agree with a lot of your opinions though. While 4 gate is definitely all-in and risky, 1 base DT expand (especially against Terran) is a very viable safe opener (see Genius Virus game). Huk used a variation of this against July in Dreamhack also I believe.
6 gate, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure you can transition out of it as long as you know when you've done enough damage.
With regards to Alicia's Void Ray + Gateway aggression into Gold base, I also think it's a very viable strategy. It's not as standard, but the pressure you put if done right allows you to get a big enough lead.
EDIT: To make another example. Consider Warcraft 3. I'm not the best to say this because I never followed the scene from Day1, but I don't think Blizzard ever intended for Ancient of Wars to be used to assist in creeping big camps. It just took a very innovative player (Moon), to realize the potential that such a thing could be and now it's a standard build. I feel that this build has a potential to be like that (however only on maps with strategically place golds), but is too untested to make a conclusion... it looks somewhat viable though.
Ultimately it depends on the strategy you're looking at, whether you intend to outright kill the opponent or put enough pressure to get a sufficient lead. That's what makes an opening all-in/cheesy or viable.
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wow... poor mkp
he does great in the other matchup sets when he gets to have best of 3 or so, but this setup really screws the poor kid over
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Marinekiinnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggggg 
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On June 29 2011 22:47 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 22:39 Kommander wrote:
Hmmm...is it just me or is MC so much more ahead in terms of metagame and skills than all other Korean protosses out there? Read the DH Top 10 stories article on the front page. Bomber mentions that European Protosses are a lot more evolved than Korean protosses, and compares it to how Korean Terrans are a lot more evolved. I can kind of agree with the sentiment here. Aside from Alicia, MC and Genius (who play very unique styles), there is no real standard Protoss build aside from 1 or 2 base timings, and no real upcoming Protoss has shown any form of inspiration for a long time now. Compare and contrast that with how Naniwa, SaSe, Hasu, White-Ra and the likes play. It is really very refreshing to see the variety in their playstyle while at the same time being extremely solid. Huk was one of the few who actually planned for a long game and shows a pretty good dynamic skillset, but was let down in the past by rather inconsistent play. Hopefully now with the confidence of his 2 European wins in the bag, he can show something inspiring. (Puzzle could be someone to watch out for though. He was always touted as a huge upcoming player, but failed to live up to expectations.)
Korean protoss players focus too much on their fundamentals instead of innovative plays, and I blame most of it on MC's earlier success in the GSL with his micro. Don't get me wrong. Fundamentals are important (just ask Huk), but it's also true that development of overall Korean protoss has been stagnant lately. It's because they believe micro is the key to playing protoss.
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On June 29 2011 23:02 PartyBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 22:20 Sorkoas wrote:On June 29 2011 22:19 MrCon wrote:On June 29 2011 22:14 Sorkoas wrote:
MrCon clearly has issues and shouldn't be allowed to admin these threads.
Yes, I'm mad. Wat. You're mad about what ? Your immature bias opinions about MKP Nah, MrCon is probably one of the most regular and effective LR makers. I'm extremely frustrated MKP didn't make it out too...or at least stay in Code S.
Hey he can still stay. Just these up/downs are harder than before, 5 people 2 spots in each group instead of 3 people for 2 spots lol. Although, Code A isn't as stacked as it was last season, and MKP made it out alive in those up/downs too so..
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On June 29 2011 23:17 amd098 wrote:
wow... poor mkp
he does great in the other matchup sets when he gets to have best of 3 or so, but this setup really screws the poor kid over
Agreed. So hard to be a marineking fan, I will never place money on him winning. He either plays so well or just crashes, not because he's bad, but he starts having bad build/stupid decision days.
Also sad to see Boxer and Fruitdealer go. Sad to see these legends play so mediocre. On the bright side, 2 Zergs from group D.
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wat!?!?! Alicia and MKP went down I cant believe it!! At least it looks like Losira's ZvT improved, which will make him a beast in his next matches. Also, wow didn't know Coca was good haha @_@/
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On June 29 2011 23:15 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 23:04 NickelMail wrote:On June 29 2011 22:47 pdd wrote:On June 29 2011 22:39 Kommander wrote:
Hmmm...is it just me or is MC so much more ahead in terms of metagame and skills than all other Korean protosses out there? Read the DH Top 10 stories article on the front page. Bomber mentions that European Protosses are a lot more evolved than Korean protosses, and compares it to how Korean Terrans are a lot more evolved. I can kind of agree with the sentiment here. Aside from Alicia, MC and Genius (who play very unique styles), there is no real standard Protoss build aside from 1 or 2 base timings, and no real upcoming Protoss has shown any form of inspiration for a long time now. Compare and contrast that with how Naniwa, SaSe, Hasu, White-Ra and the likes play. It is really very refreshing to see the variety in their playstyle while at the same time being extremely solid. Huk was one of the few who actually planned for a long game and shows a pretty good dynamic skillset, but was let down in the past by rather inconsistent play. Hopefully now with the confidence of his 2 European wins in the bag, he can show something inspiring. (Puzzle could be someone to watch out for though. He was always touted as a huge upcoming player, but failed to live up to expectations.) Your so right. Fans of Protoss players believe 4-gate, 6-gate, 1 base DT - IS STANDARD SAFE PLAY. It is not. These are very risky openings that really good players should shy away from because they fail nearly as often as they win, and the results are very random. Terran and Zerg play has standardized favoring econ openings and playing for mid - late game. (For the most part) Protoss are relying heavily on 1-2 base play with limited upside as the game proceeds. Euro Protoss dominate the foreign scene where Protoss is considered the strongets race, not so much in korea. I don't really agree with a lot of your opinions though. While 4 gate is definitely all-in and risky, 1 base DT expand (especially against Terran) is a very viable safe opener (see Genius Virus game). Huk used a variation of this against July in Dreamhack also I believe. 6 gate, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure you can transition out of it as long as you know when you've done enough damage. With regards to Alicia's Void Ray + Gateway aggression into Gold base, I also think it's a very viable strategy. It's not as standard, but the pressure you put if done right allows you to get a big enough lead. Ultimately it depends on the strategy you're looking at, whether you intend to outright kill the opponent or put enough pressure to get a sufficient lead. That's what makes an opening all-in/cheesy or viable.
Under your definition, virtually no build can be classified as "cheesy" or "All-Innish" because you predicate that on how much damage the build does. If 4-gate can do sufficient damage, then its not All-In.
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i really hope for some mvp / bomber magic, else it looks pretty grim for terrans this gsl ~
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Poor MKP, forever silver T.T
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Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but MKP has been in up/down for the 3 GSL regular seasons now.
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EPT
