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On May 18 2011 01:10 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 00:55 Serpico wrote:On May 18 2011 00:54 Yaotzin wrote:
If forcefield is stupid then most spells in SC are stupid and you should play a different game. Completely nonsensical there. FF is a pretty unique spell in its uses. By what logic is FF different to stasis/fungal/plague? If you are poorly positioning/have no indirect counter (drops/burrow/whatever) you get roflstomped and can do nothing about it, if not, not.
Forcefield is available WAY earlier than fungal is, and way earlier than stasis/plague were in BW. And you can immediately cast it upon warping in a sentry, which is only a four second or so delay if your gates aren't on cooldown.
It was designed as a defensive spell for the early game, but then becomes a game-changing offensive spell for the mid and late games. Name another spell in SC2 that does that.
I think it's absurd to suggest that forcefield is not a unique spell in SC2.
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The problem with FF is it doesn't give the oppenent really that much micro oppurtunity.
Toss does good FF's: Your army probably dies
Toss does bad FF's: Your army probably wins
Theres no, oh well I can micro my marauders/roaches here to try and get around his good FF's. You just deal with it.
Personally, as a random player, I'd like to see FF's nerfed, and sentry HP/damage buffed to compensate. (That way, blink stalker rushes, 2 gate zealot etc etc aren't messed up).
It's just not fun to watch an entire army unable to do anything
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On May 18 2011 02:15 zarepath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 01:10 Yaotzin wrote:On May 18 2011 00:55 Serpico wrote:On May 18 2011 00:54 Yaotzin wrote:
If forcefield is stupid then most spells in SC are stupid and you should play a different game. Completely nonsensical there. FF is a pretty unique spell in its uses. By what logic is FF different to stasis/fungal/plague? If you are poorly positioning/have no indirect counter (drops/burrow/whatever) you get roflstomped and can do nothing about it, if not, not. Forcefield is available WAY earlier than fungal is, and way earlier than stasis/plague were in BW. And you can immediately cast it upon warping in a sentry, which is only a four second or so delay if your gates aren't on cooldown. It was designed as a defensive spell for the early game, but then becomes a game-changing offensive spell for the mid and late games. Name another spell in SC2 that does that. I think it's absurd to suggest that forcefield is not a unique spell in SC2.
Every spell and upgrade in SC2 is unique in its own way >.> Blizzard has said, time and time again, that they purposely didn't want exact mirror spells for each race. They don't want the equivalent of a Terran spell to be available for Protoss and Zerg, for example. Imagine if concussive shells or stim were available for the other races, or if Protoss units could get the speed upgrade that zerglings can (at 5 minutes into the game).
But really, don't. Because each race is supposed to be different. Forcefield is different as well, and it fits its niche well. Just like many of the other spells.
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Well this is terrible.. woke up just in time for stream, and I wanted to watch better quality. So I purchase the 10 dollar no ads pass.. lo and behold its moletrap and doa... good god these guys are terrible in comparison to some of the free casters on TL.
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On May 18 2011 02:23 1Eris1 wrote:
The problem with FF is it doesn't give the oppenent really that much micro oppurtunity.
Toss does good FF's: Your army probably dies
Toss does bad FF's: Your army probably wins
Theres no, oh well I can micro my marauders/roaches here to try and get around his good FF's. You just deal with it.
Personally, as a random player, I'd like to see FF's nerfed, and sentry HP/damage buffed to compensate. (That way, blink stalker rushes, 2 gate zealot etc etc aren't messed up).
It's just not fun to watch an entire army unable to do anything
So then surely you also want concussive shells, fungal growth, speed upgrades, and a bunch of other spells/ techs nerfed/ removed too, right?
At least be consistent in your ridiculous suggestions.
Or! Learn to counter them effectively, since there are plenty of ways to do such a thing 
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On May 18 2011 02:25 Kernalkraze wrote:
Well this is terrible.. woke up just in time for stream, and I wanted to watch better quality. So I purchase the 10 dollar no ads pass.. lo and behold its moletrap and doa... good god these guys are terrible in comparison to some of the free casters on TL.
Unlucky for you but they have yet to implement ads in VODs so you could've just gotten the 5 dollar pass.
But no worries! You'll get to enjoy high quality Tastosis tomorrow and the day after!
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ugh the ever continuing FF debate. It's nonsense that nothing can be done to deny it. Zerg can flank more, use drops, use fungals etc. all that make it hard for P to defend with sentries. T can do so as well, not too mention use a strat that negates sentries (mech).
To some extent it's true that you can't micro roach/hydra against sentries but you can't micro roach/hydra agianst anything really, it is 1a and that's it. Focus fire only leads to overkill with the combination. Roach/hydra is also just a crappy combination and shouldn't be used at much but July just overreacted to seeing air.
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It seems that MC always brings the FF debate for some reason. Reading through other tournament threads, no other protoss from Korea, Europe or NA generates as much debate.
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God damnit Prime... wtf...
And ST lost to oGs.  It sucks that MC was able to take out 3 great players... it doesn't make it seem like as much of a team league when that happens, but it also adds to the excitement.
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On May 18 2011 02:05 ondik wrote:
when you combine MC hate and protoss hate..you get pretty much this.
Serious question though - why didn't July go for Losira's agressive build when he scouted MC's 3gate sentry expo? Losira beat Alicia very convincigly even though Alicia's defense was great..
This ! When I saw MC's build, I thought he was dead for sure (or at least i bad shape) if July just used the counter build to his. MC even got a stargate, which pretty much guarantee that the Losira's build will do a lot of damage.
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On May 18 2011 02:23 1Eris1 wrote:
The problem with FF is it doesn't give the oppenent really that much micro oppurtunity.
Toss does good FF's: Your army probably dies
Toss does bad FF's: Your army probably wins
Theres no, oh well I can micro my marauders/roaches here to try and get around his good FF's. You just deal with it.
Personally, as a random player, I'd like to see FF's nerfed, and sentry HP/damage buffed to compensate. (That way, blink stalker rushes, 2 gate zealot etc etc aren't messed up).
It's just not fun to watch an entire army unable to do anything
Stalkers and Zealots are still too weak for Protoss to survive with any kind of FF nerf. Not only that, Fungal Growth does basically the same thing, except that it completely roots the units in place while doing high damage and hits air units, with the trade-off being that it's a midgame tech. Both spells are extremely anti-micro and add this sense of frustration to the game, so you really can't spare Fungal from this discussion.
Concussive Shells is also in the same boat, although it's not as anti-micro as FF or Fungal.
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Man that PVP by squirtle where he used archons was so sick! this is the future of protoss i presume as that strategy of archons and immortals was totally viable!
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People say to "counter" FFs properly, but as a zerg, there isn't really a hard counter. As long as toss has an observer and can blink their stalkers back once the roaches get close enough (as well as to snipe any oncoming overlord drops).
Zerg isn't like Terran which can build ghosts and use EMP on infestors/templar/sentries. Zerg isn't like Protoss which can build Templar to feedback ghosts/medivacs/infestors. There isn't a zerg unit that can impact enemies' energy. Unless I'm just blanking of course.
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On May 18 2011 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Sigh.
July scouted 3gate early expand with a truckload of sentries.
July massed roaches.
July didn't get burrow-move.
MC never made a single observer.
July would have won the game if he had taken the time to get the proper tech that is universally accepted as a plausible counter to forcefields.
I'd like to point out that during the base trade, MC's last order of business in his main was to push out his obs which didn't complete in time. He probably knew he wouldn't so his first structure at his new base was a forge followed by cannons. Note that there wasn't really any major ground to ground engagement yet in the game so MC wouldn't have known if July got his tunneling claws and yet he was already preparing for any possibility of tunneling claws by getting static detection. Once he pushed out and FF'd about a quarter of July's roaches but didn't see burrow, he knew he had this and pushed all the way to his gold base to finish him off. I think had July gotten tunneling claws, FFs would've been properly nullified and the game would've went on longer but MC was just so far ahead that July probably would not have been able to come back.
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mc is such a sick nerd baller
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People say to "counter" FFs properly, but as a zerg, there isn't really a hard counter
Burrow roaches in the midgame, or Ultras in the lategame, or Drop tech, or any flying unit all obviously do well against forcefields, and Infestor-heavy compositions can make it more or less a wash by making Protoss too immobile to take full advantage of forcefields.
Forcefield begins as an extremely powerful ability with primarily defensive applications in the early game. In the mid and late game, Toss has the ability to access tons of forcefields--but more and more counters open up, such that if you see Protoss investing heavily in sentries, there are absolutely ways to punish that.
In this case, July was literally one upgrade a way from wrecking MC's army. That he didn't get it was on him.
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On May 18 2011 02:05 ct2299 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 01:57 Vorenius wrote:On May 18 2011 01:40 ct2299 wrote:
So if Protoss didn't have forcefields, let me ask you, what would you propose MC do against Bomber's all in? lol. Please people, use your brains before complaining about wanting a crucial spell removed from the game. No one is suggesting force fields should be removed. Quite the opposite in fact. Maybe you should read the posts instead of just seeing the word force field and then scrolling down to the bottom to tell everyone how it is. Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 00:11 Vorenius wrote:
I was simply saying that Force field is imo a very bad mechanic to have in a game like starcraft. It is a completely one sided ability, either the toss has good force fields or he doesn't. Nothing his opponent can do to micro around them once they are there. Of course you can try to avoid situations where it will happen, but it's still a bad mechanic. this guy for starters anyways... anyways i dont want to derail this thread... forcefields are still needed in this game.... reducing the time by a few seconds could help. but things like forcefields and placing them in such quick succession like MC is a skill and a skill he deserves to profit from. if it was so easy to FF you wouldn't see Cruncher turtling every game and trying to forcefield like a boss himself (which he usually doesn't do properly).
I said it was a bad mechanic gameplay wise.
I never argued that it was overpowered or that you could simply remove it and protoss would be fine. In fact I specifically stated the opposite very clearly several times in each post I made because I knew people would deliberately missunderstand it to try and start a balance discussion. Instead they just quoted me out of context and started the balance discussion like that. Good job. >_<
The game is close enough to being balanced that the player that plays better usually ends up winning regardless of race.
However, I personally feel force field is a badly designed spell. More so when I watch tournaments than when I play myself since it's less effective at lower levels where I spent my time laddering. I know that in the past a lot of people have expressed similar concerns both here and when I talk to my friends who also play the game. Furthermore the exact same concerns were raised on SotG, where they pretty much unanimously said it was frustrating to play against and shouldn't have been in the game to begin with.
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Everytime MC plays.. people debate on FFs. Funny how one guy can make a balance debate.
MC is a boss player.
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On May 18 2011 03:11 Chicane wrote:God damnit Prime... wtf... And ST lost to oGs. It sucks that MC was able to take out 3 great players... it doesn't make it seem like as much of a team league when that happens, but it also adds to the excitement.
Well, Flash do it pretty often on SPL.
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On May 18 2011 04:10 TooN wrote:
Everytime MC plays.. people debate on FFs. Funny how one guy can make a balance debate.
MC is a boss player.
You gotta admit, almost no one can consistently use FFs beautifully as MC. They almost never overlap!
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EPT
