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On May 18 2011 02:05 ondik wrote:
when you combine MC hate and protoss hate..you get pretty much this.
Serious question though - why didn't July go for Losira's agressive build when he scouted MC's 3gate sentry expo? Losira beat Alicia very convincigly even though Alicia's defense was great..
No it wasn't. Alicia lost a bunch of sentries in a very ill-advised push, which made him very vulnerable to the subsequent heavy attack. If he hadn't lost those sentries he would've held comfortably and moved on to an evenish macro game.
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On May 18 2011 02:15 zarepath wrote:
Forcefield is available WAY earlier than fungal is, and way earlier than stasis/plague were in BW. And you can immediately cast it upon warping in a sentry, which is only a four second or so delay if your gates aren't on cooldown.
So you are saying that fungal/stasis/plague are all also broken, but it's not a big deal because they are less common than FF?
It was designed as a defensive spell for the early game, but then becomes a game-changing offensive spell for the mid and late games. Name another spell in SC2 that does that.
I think it's absurd to suggest that forcefield is not a unique spell in SC2.
All I'm saying is that, in the area which people complain about (can't do anything direct to stop it, basically), it is identical to many many other spells.
Obviously it's different. It doesn't damage like fungal or plague. It doesn't freeze units like stasis, or trash shields like EMP. But what is the same in all these cases, is that these spells have no direct counter at all. They are all supposed to be countered via unit choice, positioning, sniping of casters and so on.
If Zerg had no even indirect way of dealing with FF, that would be a problem. But that's simply not true, many things deal with it. Many of which are recently being popularised (aggression early on to waste energy/snipe sentries, baneling drops, burrow roaches). July used none of these, so he got owned by FFs. Big deal. It's like a Protoss player clumping their sentries/hts/collo/stalkers, getting emped, and getting trashed.
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aside from all balance whining, can I just state that I absolutely looove the gstl?
This is so much fun it's addictive.
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On May 18 2011 03:41 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +People say to "counter" FFs properly, but as a zerg, there isn't really a hard counter
Burrow roaches in the midgame.... obviously do well against forcefields
You should go back and watch the GSL World Championship game with I believe Morrow vs MC. Morrow outnumbered MC's army, and when the FFs came, immediately burrowed his roaches under them. He even had a 2nd group of roaches flank MCs army at a very opportune time. Guess who won the fight and subsequently, the game? Burrowed roaches work if and only if the toss player does not have an observer and or blink.
So... no. If you watch that game, you'll see it's not very obvious at all. Artosis was even flabbergasted about how Morrow supposedly did supposedly everything right in the battle, and yet still lost it.
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Everywhere I look I find Yaotzin defending the "protoss imba".
Don't you ever get tired?
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On May 18 2011 05:01 Bagi wrote:
Everywhere I look I find Yaotzin defending the "protoss imba".
Don't you ever get tired?
Shouldn't you be asking the people who whine about imbalance if they ever get tired?
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On May 18 2011 04:48 Megiddosc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 03:41 awesomoecalypse wrote:People say to "counter" FFs properly, but as a zerg, there isn't really a hard counter
Burrow roaches in the midgame.... obviously do well against forcefields You should go back and watch the GSL World Championship game with I believe Morrow vs MC. Morrow outnumbered MC's army, and when the FFs came, immediately burrowed his roaches under them. He even had a 2nd group of roaches flank MCs army at a very opportune time. Guess who won the fight and subsequently, the game? Burrowed roaches work if and only if the toss player does not have an observer and or blink. So... no. If you watch that game, you'll see it's not very obvious at all. Artosis was even flabbergasted about how Morrow supposedly did supposedly everything right in the battle, and yet still lost it.
It worked because without burrow Morrow would have died right freaking there.
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On May 18 2011 05:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 05:01 Bagi wrote:
Everywhere I look I find Yaotzin defending the "protoss imba".
Don't you ever get tired? Shouldn't you be asking the people who whine about imbalance if they ever get tired?
I probably would if there was someone as... devoted as him.
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Vatican City State733 Posts
On May 18 2011 04:21 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 02:15 zarepath wrote:
Forcefield is available WAY earlier than fungal is, and way earlier than stasis/plague were in BW. And you can immediately cast it upon warping in a sentry, which is only a four second or so delay if your gates aren't on cooldown.
So you are saying that fungal/stasis/plague are all also broken, but it's not a big deal because they are less common than FF? .
That's actually perfectly logical. Dark swarm would have been ridiculously broken if the defiler had been a tier 1 or 1.5 unit (with tier 1 appropriate costs)
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haha just watched the OGS vs ST series. Awesome haha the mocking and ceremonies. I'm addicted to GSTL now, screw the normal GSL tournaments, need more GSTL!
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The issue I have had with FF is not the FF on its own but the combination of FF and blink stalkers.
The FF with a fair few sentries entirely negates lings/blings and greatly hinders roaches. The big issue here is that those are ALL the zerg units for the early game and still the most useful into the mid game. Mutas die to blink stalkers (which is normal, that's by design) and hydras are hurt so badly by colossi that they are at best a very temporary stall. Infestors are a decent idea but they really don't do much to blink stalkers (mostly because they get sniped).
The normal counters to heavy FF play are baneling drops (against blink stalkers, really?), burrowed roaches (again, blink stalkers love some roaches), mutas (because they don't care about FF but guess what, blink stalkers) and ultras/bls (well again, blink stalker but more importantly they are so long to get no Zerg strat can rely on them).
This has a lot of the same issues people used to have with Terran mech. The basic issue being a unit that has very few counters (tanks, especially before the nerf) and another unit which takes care of all those counters (the thor completely annihilating mutas). In the protoss case we have the blink stalker which counters everything except lings/blings and maybe a hard roach/hydra army (if they can get good concaves and close the distance) and the FF which negates those two options.
Now the Terran mech was taken care of in part by a nerf (the tank nerf) and in part by learning to handle it (magic box mutas, running in with ovies/corruptors first, abusing immobility).
The issue with the protoss equivalent is that the "ways to deal with it" all involve "hope he screws up his FFs" or "I hope he didn't get an observer by 12 minutes into the game" because there is no micro trick to get lings through a FF or to get mutas to beat stalkers gas for gas.
Quite frankly I don't see this getting resolved anytime soon and zerg players will have to keep baiting FFs (or in my case rolling in with 5 banelings to see how fast my opponent is, if they are slow they lose their sentries).
The best solution I can think of is make FFs unable to push opposing units. So you can create that wall but can't put it in the middle of a swarm or in between the sentry and a ling that is already in contact.
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MC v. Bomber... I must go watch this game.
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LR threads becoming so useless with all the balance whine, handfull of posts of actual LRing on the games, rest is pointless balance comments.
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On May 18 2011 06:12 Seide wrote:
LR threads becoming so useless with all the balance whine, handfull of posts of actual LRing on the games, rest is pointless balance comments.
Someone tell me what LR is an acronym for cant figure it out 
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oh Dongraego is the best player I've seen in the GSL ever mb close to him are only mc and mvp.. sad we miss so many good players in the GSL
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3030 Posts
On May 18 2011 06:31 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 06:12 Seide wrote:
LR threads becoming so useless with all the balance whine, handfull of posts of actual LRing on the games, rest is pointless balance comments. Someone tell me what LR is an acronym for cant figure it out
LR means Live Reporting.
Link to better understand what it is for: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220757
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On May 18 2011 04:21 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 02:15 zarepath wrote:
Forcefield is available WAY earlier than fungal is, and way earlier than stasis/plague were in BW. And you can immediately cast it upon warping in a sentry, which is only a four second or so delay if your gates aren't on cooldown.
So you are saying that fungal/stasis/plague are all also broken, but it's not a big deal because they are less common than FF? Show nested quote +
It was designed as a defensive spell for the early game, but then becomes a game-changing offensive spell for the mid and late games. Name another spell in SC2 that does that.
I think it's absurd to suggest that forcefield is not a unique spell in SC2.
All I'm saying is that, in the area which people complain about (can't do anything direct to stop it, basically), it is identical to many many other spells. Obviously it's different. It doesn't damage like fungal or plague. It doesn't freeze units like stasis, or trash shields like EMP. But what is the same in all these cases, is that these spells have no direct counter at all. They are all supposed to be countered via unit choice, positioning, sniping of casters and so on. If Zerg had no even indirect way of dealing with FF, that would be a problem. But that's simply not true, many things deal with it. Many of which are recently being popularised (aggression early on to waste energy/snipe sentries, baneling drops, burrow roaches). July used none of these, so he got owned by FFs. Big deal. It's like a Protoss player clumping their sentries/hts/collo/stalkers, getting emped, and getting trashed.
Statis immoblizied units, but made it so they were unattackable. Can't really compare. Plague did damage, no blocking or slowing. And yes, they would be ridiculously overpowered in SC2 thanks to unit clumping.
I don't like fungal either, especially when you combine it with things like banelings, but at least it comes pretty late in the game.
I think it's more of a generic SC2 caster problem. It's almost who clicks this first, where as BW was more derived around deciding when and where to place it.
Like I said before, FF shouldn't be removed, but I'd like to see it at a later tech or similar, and the sentry buffed in base stats to compensate.
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Time to go buy me a season ticket, need to watch the GSTL, it's always so baller
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I think oGs made the right choice in sending MC as their 3rd player. That's how it should be done in a best of 7 IMO. Because you know that the opposing team has made strategies to snipe the ace of your team. So you can hope that MC can make it past his snipers, but if he doesn't, you at least have some buffer space so that all isn't lost.
In a best of 9, I'd personally send your Ace as the 4th or even 3rd player. Otherwise you might get into an MMA vs. MVP situation. Unfamiliar player on an unfamiliar map with a sniping strategy.
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EPT
