|
Just getting to the vods... Wow, Prime and MVP have the worst uniforms.  What's up with the short-pants on Prime?
|
On May 17 2011 23:53 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 23:47 epoc wrote:On May 17 2011 23:18 4ntipode wrote:
There is not much to say, MC is just superior Well yes, at using forcefields. But zerg doesnt have forcefields so you cant answer that skill with equall skill. So MC's great timing attacks, great decision making, amazing micro, and very good macro have no equivalent to zergs?
July has all those.
|
On May 18 2011 00:50 Vorenius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 00:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 18 2011 00:11 Vorenius wrote:On May 17 2011 23:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 17 2011 23:33 Vorenius wrote:On May 17 2011 23:26 Fyzar wrote:On May 17 2011 23:22 Skyze wrote:On May 17 2011 23:18 GGTesomas wrote:
Good forcefields are not any fun to watch in ZvP. The Zerg just seems so helpless with all the units smashing up against the ffs and not doing anything Even with the forcefields, July's army almost beat MC's army at the hatchery.. Imagine how lopsided it would of been WITHOUT forcefields; July would of lost no units. Forcefield is a requirement for protoss to deal with roach/hydra, about as much as creep spread is for zerg. This, people should look at it from both sides. I'm P and I know that my ff's aren't really the best, because of that I lose to pmuch every zerg army -,-. FF's are essential, you can't argue with that. I don't think that was his point. Everyone knows you can't just straight up remove force fields. But that doesn't change the fact that it is just so damn frustrating to both play against and watch. You can hope your opponent misses some FFs and you win or maybe he won't and you'll lose.It's just a bad mechanic that shouldn't have been in the game in the first place. But now that it's here there is sadly no easy way to re-balance the game without it. Or you could research burrow move or drop tech, or learn how to use flanks, multi-pronged attacks, or nydus worms. Last time I checked, Sen, Idra, Dimaga, Sheth, Morrow, and all the Korean Zergs' ZvP win percentages weren't 0%. In fact, ZvP win ratios at the high levels are pretty even. Why won't you read my post? =( I never said zergs couldn't win because protoss has force fields. There are a lot of thing zergs can do to counter that and they are doing it with a lot of success currently. I was simply saying that Force field is imo a very bad mechanic to have in a game like starcraft. It is a completely one sided ability, either the toss has good force fields or he doesn't. Nothing his opponent can do to micro around them once they are there. Of course you can try to avoid situations where it will happen, but it's still a bad mechanic. I did read your post, and you saying that a spell is a bad spell doesn't make it true. Why won't you read my rebuttal? =( You say that FF is a one-sided ability, and yet I gave you many ways to overcome them (and not even all of them for each match-up: massive units, EMP, the list goes on...). The Protoss player is not immune to counters to FF-tech. He doesn't have the convenience of getting to use his FFs at all times and stopping everything with FFs. That's not the way it works. It's simply not the case that every game is auto-decided by FF-use. Every spell in the game is up to both the attacker's ability to use them effectively and the defender's ability to counter them appropriately. People who QQ about forcefields apparently seem to think that sentries' spells get to be cast first (and at any time), before any other play in the game gets to go into effect. Sentries don't have haste, and they don't trump every other unit. Sorry. And the game still goes on when a Protoss player wants to use forcefields as well. Remember that. EDIT: And it's very hard to take you seriously when I mention burrow-move and drop tech, and THEN you say that Zerg can't micro around FFs. Gosh, I guess if you ignore the fact that some Protoss units run, float, or fly, then their entire armies are immobile too! But seriously, I don't QQ about fungal growth; I learn to deal with infestors. Learn to deal with sentries. You still don't read anything other than what you want to. I'm not QQing about anything. And there is no reason to be so offensive. I have no problem with you so I don't know why you apparently have one with me. I said that in in my opinion force fields are a bad mechanic that is equally frustrating to use and play against I mostly ladder as protoss, but still hate force fields. I also said that it's too late now to do anything about it, since you can't change anything about without completely breaking the game. I also acknowledged that there are ways to work around it. But again that doesn't counter my only point: Force fields are stupid That doesn't mean I can't have hope that Blizzards decideds to change the way they work in some expansion down the road. By the way, this has nothing to do with balance. It's about making the game fun to both watch and play. Coin flipping is balanced but I don't sit around for hours watching coinflipping tournaments (Except that one time at dreamhack, but that was only because I love 2gd!)
I apologize if my tone was sounding offensive; I was simply refuting each of your previous statements with actual evidence and examples, and I guess I came off a little flat and unenthusiastic. I get a little tired of hearing people complain about FFs.
And now you claim that your only point is that forcefields are "stupid". Well I think that's a rather... unproductive... claim. Especially since you don't back it up, and you make the claim after we don't see forcefields being "stupid" in the last few games. Personally, I feel that they add an interesting element to the game, as do the rest of the spells in SC2. There is certainly nothing gamebreaking about forcefields (see my previous responses to you), but you are certainly entitled to your opinion that the spell is stupid. But it's pretty clear that they don't need a nerf or buff. I guess just a proper education, in your opinion 
Anyways, I'm off to start my day. Enjoy the rest of yours!
|
oGs finally doing good in team leagues?!?!??!?!
|
On May 18 2011 00:55 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 00:54 Yaotzin wrote:
If forcefield is stupid then most spells in SC are stupid and you should play a different game. Completely nonsensical there. FF is a pretty unique spell in its uses.
By what logic is FF different to stasis/fungal/plague? If you are poorly positioning/have no indirect counter (drops/burrow/whatever) you get roflstomped and can do nothing about it, if not, not.
|
mc has had enough of this chicanery in losing early in GSTL
|
Couldn't care less about the 5 millionth forcefield 'debate', instead i'll agree with Min Chul and look forward to tomorrow!!
oGsMC 장민철
today very very very reallly fun haha i hope tommorow fun
|
On May 17 2011 23:38 Micket wrote:
Whilst oGs is a fantastic team and has the most amount of Code S players and highest overall ranking, in GSTL, MC is pretty much the only guy that ever wins for them. Some stats:
GSTL 1 : lose 4-1 to IM, MC is the only guy who kills.
GSTL 2 : lose 4-3 to Slayers, Top gets a kill. MC gets 2 kills
GSTL 3: So far, they have beaten ST 4-2, Zenio gets a kill, Mc gets 3 kills.
So in 8 victories, MC has 6 kills and rest of oGs has 2. Sounds like a 1 man team when it comes to GSTL format.
Don't worry TheStC should be coming back soon
|
On May 18 2011 01:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 00:50 Vorenius wrote:On May 18 2011 00:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 18 2011 00:11 Vorenius wrote:On May 17 2011 23:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 17 2011 23:33 Vorenius wrote:On May 17 2011 23:26 Fyzar wrote:On May 17 2011 23:22 Skyze wrote:On May 17 2011 23:18 GGTesomas wrote:
Good forcefields are not any fun to watch in ZvP. The Zerg just seems so helpless with all the units smashing up against the ffs and not doing anything Even with the forcefields, July's army almost beat MC's army at the hatchery.. Imagine how lopsided it would of been WITHOUT forcefields; July would of lost no units. Forcefield is a requirement for protoss to deal with roach/hydra, about as much as creep spread is for zerg. This, people should look at it from both sides. I'm P and I know that my ff's aren't really the best, because of that I lose to pmuch every zerg army -,-. FF's are essential, you can't argue with that. I don't think that was his point. Everyone knows you can't just straight up remove force fields. But that doesn't change the fact that it is just so damn frustrating to both play against and watch. You can hope your opponent misses some FFs and you win or maybe he won't and you'll lose.It's just a bad mechanic that shouldn't have been in the game in the first place. But now that it's here there is sadly no easy way to re-balance the game without it. Or you could research burrow move or drop tech, or learn how to use flanks, multi-pronged attacks, or nydus worms. Last time I checked, Sen, Idra, Dimaga, Sheth, Morrow, and all the Korean Zergs' ZvP win percentages weren't 0%. In fact, ZvP win ratios at the high levels are pretty even. Why won't you read my post? =( I never said zergs couldn't win because protoss has force fields. There are a lot of thing zergs can do to counter that and they are doing it with a lot of success currently. I was simply saying that Force field is imo a very bad mechanic to have in a game like starcraft. It is a completely one sided ability, either the toss has good force fields or he doesn't. Nothing his opponent can do to micro around them once they are there. Of course you can try to avoid situations where it will happen, but it's still a bad mechanic. I did read your post, and you saying that a spell is a bad spell doesn't make it true. Why won't you read my rebuttal? =( You say that FF is a one-sided ability, and yet I gave you many ways to overcome them (and not even all of them for each match-up: massive units, EMP, the list goes on...). The Protoss player is not immune to counters to FF-tech. He doesn't have the convenience of getting to use his FFs at all times and stopping everything with FFs. That's not the way it works. It's simply not the case that every game is auto-decided by FF-use. Every spell in the game is up to both the attacker's ability to use them effectively and the defender's ability to counter them appropriately. People who QQ about forcefields apparently seem to think that sentries' spells get to be cast first (and at any time), before any other play in the game gets to go into effect. Sentries don't have haste, and they don't trump every other unit. Sorry. And the game still goes on when a Protoss player wants to use forcefields as well. Remember that. EDIT: And it's very hard to take you seriously when I mention burrow-move and drop tech, and THEN you say that Zerg can't micro around FFs. Gosh, I guess if you ignore the fact that some Protoss units run, float, or fly, then their entire armies are immobile too! But seriously, I don't QQ about fungal growth; I learn to deal with infestors. Learn to deal with sentries. You still don't read anything other than what you want to. I'm not QQing about anything. And there is no reason to be so offensive. I have no problem with you so I don't know why you apparently have one with me. I said that in in my opinion force fields are a bad mechanic that is equally frustrating to use and play against I mostly ladder as protoss, but still hate force fields. I also said that it's too late now to do anything about it, since you can't change anything about without completely breaking the game. I also acknowledged that there are ways to work around it. But again that doesn't counter my only point: Force fields are stupid That doesn't mean I can't have hope that Blizzards decideds to change the way they work in some expansion down the road. By the way, this has nothing to do with balance. It's about making the game fun to both watch and play. Coin flipping is balanced but I don't sit around for hours watching coinflipping tournaments (Except that one time at dreamhack, but that was only because I love 2gd!) I apologize if my tone was sounding offensive; I was simply refuting each of your previous statements with actual evidence and examples, and I guess I came off a little flat and unenthusiastic. I get a little tired of hearing people complain about FFs. And now you claim that your only point is that forcefields are "stupid". Well I think that's a rather... unproductive... claim. Especially since you don't back it up, and you make the claim after we don't see forcefields being "stupid" in the last few games. Personally, I feel that they add an interesting element to the game, as do the rest of the spells in SC2. There is certainly nothing gamebreaking about forcefields (see my previous responses to you), but you are certainly entitled to your opinion that the spell is stupid. But it's pretty clear that they don't need a nerf or buff. I guess just a proper education, in your opinion Anyways, I'm off to start my day. Enjoy the rest of yours!
Actually I think the match we just watched was probably the best example of it I have see to date.
The very last battle was completely oGsMC's to either win or lose. It would all come down to his force fields. There was nothing July could have done to micro around that. If MC made good force fields who would win (and he did because he's an awesome player) if he somehow completely missed his force fields July would have won (or maybe not, MC was probably too far ahead it this point). In the end MC won because he was good. Not because he was better than July, or because July played bad. He was good enough to make sufficient force fields and that won him the fight. Obviously July lost the game before that by not knowing where MC's army was. Again, this isn't to show imbalance or anyof the sort. It's just to show how force fields is a badly designed spell.
Wouldn't it have been a much more exciting game to watch if both players were able to actually impact the last fight? If it was anyone's match to win? Having the match come down to one player is just pretty bad for entertainment, and pretty frustrating as a player I would imagine.
And yeah, there are other spells that work in similar ways, but none are as accessible or commonly used as force fields are.
|
Just watched hongun vs tails... Tails opening was really impressive :o
|
On May 18 2011 01:24 Vorenius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 01:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 18 2011 00:50 Vorenius wrote:On May 18 2011 00:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 18 2011 00:11 Vorenius wrote:On May 17 2011 23:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 17 2011 23:33 Vorenius wrote:On May 17 2011 23:26 Fyzar wrote:On May 17 2011 23:22 Skyze wrote:On May 17 2011 23:18 GGTesomas wrote:
Good forcefields are not any fun to watch in ZvP. The Zerg just seems so helpless with all the units smashing up against the ffs and not doing anything Even with the forcefields, July's army almost beat MC's army at the hatchery.. Imagine how lopsided it would of been WITHOUT forcefields; July would of lost no units. Forcefield is a requirement for protoss to deal with roach/hydra, about as much as creep spread is for zerg. This, people should look at it from both sides. I'm P and I know that my ff's aren't really the best, because of that I lose to pmuch every zerg army -,-. FF's are essential, you can't argue with that. I don't think that was his point. Everyone knows you can't just straight up remove force fields. But that doesn't change the fact that it is just so damn frustrating to both play against and watch. You can hope your opponent misses some FFs and you win or maybe he won't and you'll lose.It's just a bad mechanic that shouldn't have been in the game in the first place. But now that it's here there is sadly no easy way to re-balance the game without it. Or you could research burrow move or drop tech, or learn how to use flanks, multi-pronged attacks, or nydus worms. Last time I checked, Sen, Idra, Dimaga, Sheth, Morrow, and all the Korean Zergs' ZvP win percentages weren't 0%. In fact, ZvP win ratios at the high levels are pretty even. Why won't you read my post? =( I never said zergs couldn't win because protoss has force fields. There are a lot of thing zergs can do to counter that and they are doing it with a lot of success currently. I was simply saying that Force field is imo a very bad mechanic to have in a game like starcraft. It is a completely one sided ability, either the toss has good force fields or he doesn't. Nothing his opponent can do to micro around them once they are there. Of course you can try to avoid situations where it will happen, but it's still a bad mechanic. I did read your post, and you saying that a spell is a bad spell doesn't make it true. Why won't you read my rebuttal? =( You say that FF is a one-sided ability, and yet I gave you many ways to overcome them (and not even all of them for each match-up: massive units, EMP, the list goes on...). The Protoss player is not immune to counters to FF-tech. He doesn't have the convenience of getting to use his FFs at all times and stopping everything with FFs. That's not the way it works. It's simply not the case that every game is auto-decided by FF-use. Every spell in the game is up to both the attacker's ability to use them effectively and the defender's ability to counter them appropriately. People who QQ about forcefields apparently seem to think that sentries' spells get to be cast first (and at any time), before any other play in the game gets to go into effect. Sentries don't have haste, and they don't trump every other unit. Sorry. And the game still goes on when a Protoss player wants to use forcefields as well. Remember that. EDIT: And it's very hard to take you seriously when I mention burrow-move and drop tech, and THEN you say that Zerg can't micro around FFs. Gosh, I guess if you ignore the fact that some Protoss units run, float, or fly, then their entire armies are immobile too! But seriously, I don't QQ about fungal growth; I learn to deal with infestors. Learn to deal with sentries. You still don't read anything other than what you want to. I'm not QQing about anything. And there is no reason to be so offensive. I have no problem with you so I don't know why you apparently have one with me. I said that in in my opinion force fields are a bad mechanic that is equally frustrating to use and play against I mostly ladder as protoss, but still hate force fields. I also said that it's too late now to do anything about it, since you can't change anything about without completely breaking the game. I also acknowledged that there are ways to work around it. But again that doesn't counter my only point: Force fields are stupid That doesn't mean I can't have hope that Blizzards decideds to change the way they work in some expansion down the road. By the way, this has nothing to do with balance. It's about making the game fun to both watch and play. Coin flipping is balanced but I don't sit around for hours watching coinflipping tournaments (Except that one time at dreamhack, but that was only because I love 2gd!) I apologize if my tone was sounding offensive; I was simply refuting each of your previous statements with actual evidence and examples, and I guess I came off a little flat and unenthusiastic. I get a little tired of hearing people complain about FFs. And now you claim that your only point is that forcefields are "stupid". Well I think that's a rather... unproductive... claim. Especially since you don't back it up, and you make the claim after we don't see forcefields being "stupid" in the last few games. Personally, I feel that they add an interesting element to the game, as do the rest of the spells in SC2. There is certainly nothing gamebreaking about forcefields (see my previous responses to you), but you are certainly entitled to your opinion that the spell is stupid. But it's pretty clear that they don't need a nerf or buff. I guess just a proper education, in your opinion Anyways, I'm off to start my day. Enjoy the rest of yours! Actually I think the match we just watched was probably the best example of it I have see to date. The very last battle was completely oGsMC's to either win or lose. It would all come down to his force fields. There was nothing July could have done to micro around that. If MC made good force fields who would win (and he did because he's an awesome player) if he somehow completely missed his force fields July would have won (or maybe not, MC was probably too far ahead it this point). In the end MC won because he was good. Not because he was better than July, or because July played bad. He was good enough to make sufficient force fields and that won him the fight. Obviously July lost the game before that by not knowing where MC's army was. Again, this isn't to show imbalance or anyof the sort. It's just to show how force fields is a badly designed spell. Wouldn't it have been a much more exciting game to watch if both players were able to actually impact the last fight? If it was anyone's match to win? Having the match come down to one player is just pretty bad for entertainment, and pretty frustrating as a player I would imagine.And yeah, there are other spells that work in similar ways, but none are as accessible or commonly used as force fields are.
Sigh.
July scouted 3gate early expand with a truckload of sentries.
July massed roaches.
July didn't get burrow-move.
MC never made a single observer.
July would have won the game if he had taken the time to get the proper tech that is universally accepted as a plausible counter to forcefields.
Stop QQing about forcefields. I reiterate, from a previous response of mine to you:
Every spell in the game is up to both the attacker's ability to use them effectively and the defender's ability to counter them appropriately.
Seriously. What you did is point out, after one person happens to already have a 90% chance of winning the game, that the end of the game was decided by that one person and not the other. Yeah that's how it works when the loser messed up a few minutes back. It's not unfair and the winner's spells aren't broken. He deserved the win. Blame the loser for not playing better.
July played pretty well. However, MC played incredibly well, and July didn't do what he needed to do to beat him. That's all there is to it.
|
meh
prime and st out
ogs has mc and mvp has luck LOL
|
|
|
So if Protoss didn't have forcefields, let me ask you, what would you propose MC do against Bomber's all in? lol. Please people, use your brains before complaining about wanting a crucial spell removed from the game.
|
On May 18 2011 01:36 sVnteen wrote:
meh
prime and st out
ogs has mc and mvp has luck LOL
MvP has luck? Did you actually watch a single game that MvP won?
|
Any gifs of Aces celebration?
|
MC being MC, it seems :-)
Gratz both winning teams, and nice to see a random race player again!
|
On May 18 2011 01:40 ct2299 wrote:
So if Protoss didn't have forcefields, let me ask you, what would you propose MC do against Bomber's all in? lol. Please people, use your brains before complaining about wanting a crucial spell removed from the game.
No one is suggesting force fields should be removed. Quite the opposite in fact.
Maybe you should read the posts instead of just seeing the word force field and then scrolling down to the bottom to tell everyone how it is.
|
when you combine MC hate and protoss hate..you get pretty much this.
Serious question though - why didn't July go for Losira's agressive build when he scouted MC's 3gate sentry expo? Losira beat Alicia very convincigly even though Alicia's defense was great..
|
On May 18 2011 01:57 Vorenius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 01:40 ct2299 wrote:
So if Protoss didn't have forcefields, let me ask you, what would you propose MC do against Bomber's all in? lol. Please people, use your brains before complaining about wanting a crucial spell removed from the game. No one is suggesting force fields should be removed. Quite the opposite in fact. Maybe you should read the posts instead of just seeing the word force field and then scrolling down to the bottom to tell everyone how it is.
QUOTE]On May 18 2011 00:11 Vorenius wrote:
I was simply saying that Force field is imo a very bad mechanic to have in a game like starcraft. It is a completely one sided ability, either the toss has good force fields or he doesn't. Nothing his opponent can do to micro around them once they are there. Of course you can try to avoid situations where it will happen, but it's still a bad mechanic.[/QUOTE]
this guy for starters anyways... anyways i dont want to derail this thread...
forcefields are still needed in this game.... reducing the time by a few seconds could help. but things like forcefields and placing them in such quick succession like MC is a skill and a skill he deserves to profit from.
if it was so easy to FF you wouldn't see Cruncher turtling every game and trying to forcefield like a boss himself (which he usually doesn't do properly).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
