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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On May 12 2011 09:12 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 09:06 mpupu wrote:On May 12 2011 09:03 antelope591 wrote:On May 12 2011 08:34 s4life wrote:On May 12 2011 06:33 Blasphemi wrote:On May 12 2011 05:51 s4life wrote:On May 12 2011 03:33 Qaatar wrote:On May 12 2011 01:02 s4life wrote:On May 11 2011 22:48 kheldorin wrote:On May 11 2011 22:32 s4life wrote:
[quote]
Koreans are getting ripped in China too.. GSL players are slightly better but not much better than foreign ones. Except for the final and semi-final, that Chinese tournament is still held online. Live location, in a booth, on a stage in front of a live audience >>>>> online tournaments. EU live events such as IEM, Dreamhack, Copenhagen has been won by a Korean anyway. And if a player is in 2 tournaments where one of them has much more local prestige and much more prize money, I doubt they are going to expose any of their new builds. We have seen so much more specially-made builds in the GSL from the Koreans but not really anywhere else. I guess we'll never know until half the players in Korea playing in the GSL are foreign... that will never happen. Seriously, if you don't trust your own eyes and brain (I have a hard time believing anyone who regularly watches, say, MVP's games, would say that he even played close to 50% of what he was capable of against Adelscott, no matter how bad he was against P at the time), at least trust the words of other pros like idrA: people need to stop taking cross-server online results seriously as far as a measurement of players' skill levels. Like a previous poster said, the only major result that has been legit was Thorzain vs. MC. It's not a knock on these online tournaments - just shitty Blizzard server technology. I mean, it's either all of that, or it's foreigners, who don't practice as much, who don't live in a teamhouse environment, who don't live, breathe, and swim in an RTS culture all day, can be just as good if not better than these other players (Koreans in this case). If that truly is the case, I think it might be more of an indictment on the poor quality of SC2 as an esport than anything else - a sport that rewards random variability over hard work. I don't think any of us wants that to be the case. Koreans lose left and right in tournaments here, in EU and China.. that never happened BW. SC2 is a different game, it doesn't reward random variability otherwise you wouldn't have players winning 3 GSLs, it does reward good decision making and game sense.. that's something you pick up in practice games but also when you think about the game... practicing mechanics is all good, but not nearly as decisive a factor as it was in BW... when Idra was asked how does he practice? he said he doesn't need to, he'd rather think about the game. Koreans are not losing in LAN's. No one thinks they are as dominant as Brood War but on average they are still a fair way better. How can koreans lose in GSL if all players minus one are korean? other LAN tournaments are few and far in between to actually reveal anything statistically significant. Edit: I am not saying koreans aren't better.. they probably are in average... it's just sickening to read what some posters write.. like if koreans were handpicked by god to actually dominate starcraft 2. Doesn't matter if they are few and far and between...every foreign lan attended by at least 1 Korean was won by a Korean. Foreigners have won no GSL's. Until that fact changes Koreans are still better. Not true. MaNa won Dreamhack. Yea figured I'd forget one...but you could change it to top4 or better and the argument still stands.
Nope, no you can't. Naama won Dreamhack, and neither TOP nor InCa made the final four.
Liquipedia, ladies and gentlemen.
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mana lost vs naama in the dreamhack finals
edit: slow
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On May 13 2011 02:01 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 09:03 antelope591 wrote:On May 12 2011 08:34 s4life wrote:On May 12 2011 06:33 Blasphemi wrote:On May 12 2011 05:51 s4life wrote:On May 12 2011 03:33 Qaatar wrote:On May 12 2011 01:02 s4life wrote:On May 11 2011 22:48 kheldorin wrote:On May 11 2011 22:32 s4life wrote:On May 11 2011 22:07 lazyfeet wrote:
[quote]
Statement like this make me wish the Korean players not participating any more cross server online tournament. Yes Koreans were ripped in TSL but i will bet the European players will get ripped if they go to Korea consider the pool of korean pros competing in Korea. I guess Idra made the BEST decision ever by not competing in foreign online tournaments when he was in Korea. Koreans are getting ripped in China too.. GSL players are slightly better but not much better than foreign ones. Except for the final and semi-final, that Chinese tournament is still held online. Live location, in a booth, on a stage in front of a live audience >>>>> online tournaments. EU live events such as IEM, Dreamhack, Copenhagen has been won by a Korean anyway. And if a player is in 2 tournaments where one of them has much more local prestige and much more prize money, I doubt they are going to expose any of their new builds. We have seen so much more specially-made builds in the GSL from the Koreans but not really anywhere else. I guess we'll never know until half the players in Korea playing in the GSL are foreign... that will never happen. Seriously, if you don't trust your own eyes and brain (I have a hard time believing anyone who regularly watches, say, MVP's games, would say that he even played close to 50% of what he was capable of against Adelscott, no matter how bad he was against P at the time), at least trust the words of other pros like idrA: people need to stop taking cross-server online results seriously as far as a measurement of players' skill levels. Like a previous poster said, the only major result that has been legit was Thorzain vs. MC. It's not a knock on these online tournaments - just shitty Blizzard server technology. I mean, it's either all of that, or it's foreigners, who don't practice as much, who don't live in a teamhouse environment, who don't live, breathe, and swim in an RTS culture all day, can be just as good if not better than these other players (Koreans in this case). If that truly is the case, I think it might be more of an indictment on the poor quality of SC2 as an esport than anything else - a sport that rewards random variability over hard work. I don't think any of us wants that to be the case. Koreans lose left and right in tournaments here, in EU and China.. that never happened BW. SC2 is a different game, it doesn't reward random variability otherwise you wouldn't have players winning 3 GSLs, it does reward good decision making and game sense.. that's something you pick up in practice games but also when you think about the game... practicing mechanics is all good, but not nearly as decisive a factor as it was in BW... when Idra was asked how does he practice? he said he doesn't need to, he'd rather think about the game. Koreans are not losing in LAN's. No one thinks they are as dominant as Brood War but on average they are still a fair way better. How can koreans lose in GSL if all players minus one are korean? other LAN tournaments are few and far in between to actually reveal anything statistically significant. Edit: I am not saying koreans aren't better.. they probably are in average... it's just sickening to read what some posters write.. like if koreans were handpicked by god to actually dominate starcraft 2. Doesn't matter if they are few and far and between...every foreign lan attended by at least 1 Korean was won by a Korean. Foreigners have won no GSL's. Until that fact changes Koreans are still better. Mana won dreamhack, MC almost lost to WhiteRA in Coppenhagen. That leaves Ace in IEM - Squirtle was pwned pretty badly by Socke throughout that tournament... so because Ace won handily in one tournament, suddenly koreans never lose in LAN games.. how ridiculous.
Ace won another tournament in Australia. MC won another Dreamhack. And MC won Copenhagan, he wasn't knocked out, check your facts.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Copenhagen_Games_Spring_2011
The only LAN I can think of in Koreans not winning is the original DH from a longggggggg time ago. Don't forget, at these lands there might only be 2 Koreans for every 100 Europeans. If we saw an equal number, Koreans would dominate.
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On May 12 2011 08:34 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 06:33 Blasphemi wrote:On May 12 2011 05:51 s4life wrote:On May 12 2011 03:33 Qaatar wrote:On May 12 2011 01:02 s4life wrote:On May 11 2011 22:48 kheldorin wrote:On May 11 2011 22:32 s4life wrote:On May 11 2011 22:07 lazyfeet wrote:On May 11 2011 21:44 kickinhead wrote:
I actually don't really like how HuK has been playing lately (lot's of mistakes and poor decision-making), but he performed very well in those games and made perfect decisions, so I guess he can actually play really solid and deserves to be in Code-S. Besides, no Foreiger in Code-S would be pretty much a joke if you look at how well the Foreigners perform in stuff like Stars Wars, TSL, NASL etc.
I actually think that the GSL looses a bit of credibility and prestige with only one Foreigner in Code-S when the Koreans get ripped apart in TSL and stuff. They should really work towards inviting really good Foreigners into the GSL more... Statement like this make me wish the Korean players not participating any more cross server online tournament. Yes Koreans were ripped in TSL but i will bet the European players will get ripped if they go to Korea consider the pool of korean pros competing in Korea. I guess Idra made the BEST decision ever by not competing in foreign online tournaments when he was in Korea. Koreans are getting ripped in China too.. GSL players are slightly better but not much better than foreign ones. Except for the final and semi-final, that Chinese tournament is still held online. Live location, in a booth, on a stage in front of a live audience >>>>> online tournaments. EU live events such as IEM, Dreamhack, Copenhagen has been won by a Korean anyway. And if a player is in 2 tournaments where one of them has much more local prestige and much more prize money, I doubt they are going to expose any of their new builds. We have seen so much more specially-made builds in the GSL from the Koreans but not really anywhere else. I guess we'll never know until half the players in Korea playing in the GSL are foreign... that will never happen. Seriously, if you don't trust your own eyes and brain (I have a hard time believing anyone who regularly watches, say, MVP's games, would say that he even played close to 50% of what he was capable of against Adelscott, no matter how bad he was against P at the time), at least trust the words of other pros like idrA: people need to stop taking cross-server online results seriously as far as a measurement of players' skill levels. Like a previous poster said, the only major result that has been legit was Thorzain vs. MC. It's not a knock on these online tournaments - just shitty Blizzard server technology. I mean, it's either all of that, or it's foreigners, who don't practice as much, who don't live in a teamhouse environment, who don't live, breathe, and swim in an RTS culture all day, can be just as good if not better than these other players (Koreans in this case). If that truly is the case, I think it might be more of an indictment on the poor quality of SC2 as an esport than anything else - a sport that rewards random variability over hard work. I don't think any of us wants that to be the case. Koreans lose left and right in tournaments here, in EU and China.. that never happened BW. SC2 is a different game, it doesn't reward random variability otherwise you wouldn't have players winning 3 GSLs, it does reward good decision making and game sense.. that's something you pick up in practice games but also when you think about the game... practicing mechanics is all good, but not nearly as decisive a factor as it was in BW... when Idra was asked how does he practice? he said he doesn't need to, he'd rather think about the game. Koreans are not losing in LAN's. No one thinks they are as dominant as Brood War but on average they are still a fair way better. How can koreans lose in GSL if all players minus one are korean? other LAN tournaments are few and far in between to actually reveal anything statistically significant. Edit: I am not saying koreans aren't better.. they probably are in average... it's just sickening to read what some posters write.. like if koreans were handpicked by god to actually dominate starcraft 2.
Obviously excluding the GSL (except for the World Championship which should count) every single LAN so far that has featured atleast 1 Korean has been won by a Korean except for Dreamhack Winter. Every single one.
Also consider this, Jinro and IdrA winning MLGs. IdrA was in Korea for the entirety of SC2 even being in Beta, was pretty much a 'Korean' player. Not nationality, but in terms of being a 'Korean' starcraft player, yes. Jinro was not even close to being a top tier player when he went to Korea very early on, so the argument that he was in Korea because he was an MLG winning caliber player is invalid.
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On May 13 2011 02:01 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 09:03 antelope591 wrote:On May 12 2011 08:34 s4life wrote:On May 12 2011 06:33 Blasphemi wrote:On May 12 2011 05:51 s4life wrote:On May 12 2011 03:33 Qaatar wrote:On May 12 2011 01:02 s4life wrote:On May 11 2011 22:48 kheldorin wrote:On May 11 2011 22:32 s4life wrote:On May 11 2011 22:07 lazyfeet wrote:
[quote]
Statement like this make me wish the Korean players not participating any more cross server online tournament. Yes Koreans were ripped in TSL but i will bet the European players will get ripped if they go to Korea consider the pool of korean pros competing in Korea. I guess Idra made the BEST decision ever by not competing in foreign online tournaments when he was in Korea. Koreans are getting ripped in China too.. GSL players are slightly better but not much better than foreign ones. Except for the final and semi-final, that Chinese tournament is still held online. Live location, in a booth, on a stage in front of a live audience >>>>> online tournaments. EU live events such as IEM, Dreamhack, Copenhagen has been won by a Korean anyway. And if a player is in 2 tournaments where one of them has much more local prestige and much more prize money, I doubt they are going to expose any of their new builds. We have seen so much more specially-made builds in the GSL from the Koreans but not really anywhere else. I guess we'll never know until half the players in Korea playing in the GSL are foreign... that will never happen. Seriously, if you don't trust your own eyes and brain (I have a hard time believing anyone who regularly watches, say, MVP's games, would say that he even played close to 50% of what he was capable of against Adelscott, no matter how bad he was against P at the time), at least trust the words of other pros like idrA: people need to stop taking cross-server online results seriously as far as a measurement of players' skill levels. Like a previous poster said, the only major result that has been legit was Thorzain vs. MC. It's not a knock on these online tournaments - just shitty Blizzard server technology. I mean, it's either all of that, or it's foreigners, who don't practice as much, who don't live in a teamhouse environment, who don't live, breathe, and swim in an RTS culture all day, can be just as good if not better than these other players (Koreans in this case). If that truly is the case, I think it might be more of an indictment on the poor quality of SC2 as an esport than anything else - a sport that rewards random variability over hard work. I don't think any of us wants that to be the case. Koreans lose left and right in tournaments here, in EU and China.. that never happened BW. SC2 is a different game, it doesn't reward random variability otherwise you wouldn't have players winning 3 GSLs, it does reward good decision making and game sense.. that's something you pick up in practice games but also when you think about the game... practicing mechanics is all good, but not nearly as decisive a factor as it was in BW... when Idra was asked how does he practice? he said he doesn't need to, he'd rather think about the game. Koreans are not losing in LAN's. No one thinks they are as dominant as Brood War but on average they are still a fair way better. How can koreans lose in GSL if all players minus one are korean? other LAN tournaments are few and far in between to actually reveal anything statistically significant. Edit: I am not saying koreans aren't better.. they probably are in average... it's just sickening to read what some posters write.. like if koreans were handpicked by god to actually dominate starcraft 2. Doesn't matter if they are few and far and between...every foreign lan attended by at least 1 Korean was won by a Korean. Foreigners have won no GSL's. Until that fact changes Koreans are still better. Mana won dreamhack, MC almost lost to WhiteRA in Coppenhagen. That leaves Ace in IEM - Squirtle was pwned pretty badly by Socke throughout that tournament... so because Ace won handily in one tournament, suddenly koreans never lose in LAN games.. how ridiculous.
It's not Korean never lose in lan they are just the favor by past results. The skill level of top Foreign players and korean are so close any players can beat the one. Mana won but Top did ok i mean he knock his own teammate out. Ace also won a Big Australia lan event. Squirtle was a nobody in korea failing at code A before he went to IEM. WhiteRa owned by bomber badly when bomber was code B. TT1 playing bad lately but he went to the gsl world tournament come away with the performance. A IM team without their aces play against the top foreigner did ok. Just yesterday i saw kawaiirice make adelscott look like a crybaby should i start saying na is better then eu?
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On May 13 2011 02:01 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 09:03 antelope591 wrote:On May 12 2011 08:34 s4life wrote:On May 12 2011 06:33 Blasphemi wrote:On May 12 2011 05:51 s4life wrote:On May 12 2011 03:33 Qaatar wrote:On May 12 2011 01:02 s4life wrote:On May 11 2011 22:48 kheldorin wrote:On May 11 2011 22:32 s4life wrote:On May 11 2011 22:07 lazyfeet wrote:
[quote]
Statement like this make me wish the Korean players not participating any more cross server online tournament. Yes Koreans were ripped in TSL but i will bet the European players will get ripped if they go to Korea consider the pool of korean pros competing in Korea. I guess Idra made the BEST decision ever by not competing in foreign online tournaments when he was in Korea. Koreans are getting ripped in China too.. GSL players are slightly better but not much better than foreign ones. Except for the final and semi-final, that Chinese tournament is still held online. Live location, in a booth, on a stage in front of a live audience >>>>> online tournaments. EU live events such as IEM, Dreamhack, Copenhagen has been won by a Korean anyway. And if a player is in 2 tournaments where one of them has much more local prestige and much more prize money, I doubt they are going to expose any of their new builds. We have seen so much more specially-made builds in the GSL from the Koreans but not really anywhere else. I guess we'll never know until half the players in Korea playing in the GSL are foreign... that will never happen. Seriously, if you don't trust your own eyes and brain (I have a hard time believing anyone who regularly watches, say, MVP's games, would say that he even played close to 50% of what he was capable of against Adelscott, no matter how bad he was against P at the time), at least trust the words of other pros like idrA: people need to stop taking cross-server online results seriously as far as a measurement of players' skill levels. Like a previous poster said, the only major result that has been legit was Thorzain vs. MC. It's not a knock on these online tournaments - just shitty Blizzard server technology. I mean, it's either all of that, or it's foreigners, who don't practice as much, who don't live in a teamhouse environment, who don't live, breathe, and swim in an RTS culture all day, can be just as good if not better than these other players (Koreans in this case). If that truly is the case, I think it might be more of an indictment on the poor quality of SC2 as an esport than anything else - a sport that rewards random variability over hard work. I don't think any of us wants that to be the case. Koreans lose left and right in tournaments here, in EU and China.. that never happened BW. SC2 is a different game, it doesn't reward random variability otherwise you wouldn't have players winning 3 GSLs, it does reward good decision making and game sense.. that's something you pick up in practice games but also when you think about the game... practicing mechanics is all good, but not nearly as decisive a factor as it was in BW... when Idra was asked how does he practice? he said he doesn't need to, he'd rather think about the game. Koreans are not losing in LAN's. No one thinks they are as dominant as Brood War but on average they are still a fair way better. How can koreans lose in GSL if all players minus one are korean? other LAN tournaments are few and far in between to actually reveal anything statistically significant. Edit: I am not saying koreans aren't better.. they probably are in average... it's just sickening to read what some posters write.. like if koreans were handpicked by god to actually dominate starcraft 2. Doesn't matter if they are few and far and between...every foreign lan attended by at least 1 Korean was won by a Korean. Foreigners have won no GSL's. Until that fact changes Koreans are still better. Mana won dreamhack, MC almost lost to WhiteRA in Coppenhagen. That leaves Ace in IEM - Squirtle was pwned pretty badly by Socke throughout that tournament... so because Ace won handily in one tournament, suddenly koreans never lose in LAN games.. how ridiculous.
Your post is more ridiculous. Next time fact check before you post. Did you even watch coppenhagen?
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The other shock result was White-Ra against MC. Before you start going off at me, I know it was a BO1, but both builds were pretty refined. Also, at DH was pretty close too.
The Europeans are getting their own house, ROOT has its own house, FXO are getting part of Malaysia!
I believe the skill gap is closing, as eSports grows in the west, suddenly a lot more is going on. They practice more, they adapt to crazy builds quickly. In the Up/Downs this week, a Z player (anyone confirm who?) used the Spanishwa build to great effect in his game, and won.
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On May 13 2011 06:18 tabbott26 wrote:
The other shock result was White-Ra against MC. Before you start going off at me, I know it was a BO1, but both builds were pretty refined. Also, at DH was pretty close too.
The Europeans are getting their own house, ROOT has its own house, FXO are getting part of Malaysia!
I believe the skill gap is closing, as eSports grows in the west, suddenly a lot more is going on. They practice more, they adapt to crazy builds quickly. In the Up/Downs this week, a Z player (anyone confirm who?) used the Spanishwa build to great effect in his game, and won.
Zenio.
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On May 13 2011 06:25 Crono9987 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 06:18 tabbott26 wrote:
The other shock result was White-Ra against MC. Before you start going off at me, I know it was a BO1, but both builds were pretty refined. Also, at DH was pretty close too.
The Europeans are getting their own house, ROOT has its own house, FXO are getting part of Malaysia!
I believe the skill gap is closing, as eSports grows in the west, suddenly a lot more is going on. They practice more, they adapt to crazy builds quickly. In the Up/Downs this week, a Z player (anyone confirm who?) used the Spanishwa build to great effect in his game, and won. Zenio.
Thanks for that, I saw the game live but didn't have access to VOD's!! 
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Why is this US/KR argument even going on in this thread? Didn't Huk just beat MMA? Unless he is now Korean because he's been living in Korea? In which case, yes, training regimens probably help...
Edit: Not to say one side is better than the other...but today doesn't really help either side of the debate. O.o
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EPT
