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On June 01 2011 11:18 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:14 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:12 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:11 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:10 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
T___T mingun allins, idra defends it, minigun expands and now idra is behind :/ You got it backwards. Minigun expands, IdrA all ins and doesn't do enough damage with it and is behind. you missed the part where minigun 4gated and tried to be aggressive with it, forcing idra to make those units which were basically useless against forcefields You have never seen a player put on a bit of pressure? That's just good game play. He moved forward and instantly pulled back as he expanded. potentially sacrificing all your expensive as fuck units is good gameplay now?
lol, he pulled back as soon as he saw bunch of roaches, then FF to stop them at the choke. Man you really need to gtfo and stop whining. Man up and respect minigun pls
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On June 01 2011 11:20 Chicane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:18 bluestuff wrote:
forcefields are just abysmal from a game design perspective, and completly mitigating the micro from the player facing them I wouldn't say completely. Completely would be fungal growth which is essentially 8 forcefields around a section of an army, not allowing them to move at all (can't blink away, can't burrow away etc.)
Forcefields are far better than Fungal. Fungal at least allows your units to attack (assuming they're not melee with most units aren't).
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Good metagaming there from Minigun, Idra has been owning 3 gate expands with roach-ling allins a lot lately, by throwing in an extra gate he only slightly delays the expand and is completely safe vs the allin.
The early pressure was also smart, because if Idra hadn't been massing units there's always the opportunity to cancel the expansion and switch to a one base 4 gate, but if he sees the units he can just use FF and return to his base to defend.
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Another thing - once you get on 4 bases as zerg, you should be able to afford hive and greater spire. With so much energy on the sentries late game it's almost impossible to break through with a ground army, as we saw.
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And as usual, this becomes a balance-discussion.
I love me some IdrA, I'm a proud IdrA-fan that'll always support him. But seriously, why does it become such a big deal when he loses?
Read the TL-article about sAviOr, when life gives you lemons, you squirt lemon juice in someone's eyes You rise up to the challenge and bend the rules.. That's where we as fans should be standing with IdrA, not whine and invent excuses for him.
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On June 01 2011 11:16 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:14 Jyvblamo wrote:On June 01 2011 11:14 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:12 Mordiford wrote:On June 01 2011 11:11 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:10 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
T___T mingun allins, idra defends it, minigun expands and now idra is behind :/ You got it backwards. Minigun expands, IdrA all ins and doesn't do enough damage with it and is behind. Yeah, what game were you watching? I'm pretty sure Minigun was the defender with IdrA streaming in units... the one where minigun 4gated and then attacked with a zealot and a bunch of sentries Did you notice the part where his natural expansion was already up when his sentries and zealots reached Idra's front? well then why the hell did he push out with a fuckton of expensive units, and build an aggro pylon? the good old make nothing but sentries and try to kill the zerg build?
It was just a feign aggression Grimm calm down, if it WAS an all-in "ala MC style" the Nexus would have been cancelled right before completion to make way for the explosion of 4 WG units. All it was, was to poke IdrA and make sure he wasn't playing way too greedily. The reason why he went 4G expand is because a lot of Zerg's(particularly IdrA as well) are favoring a roach/ling all-in to counter the FE. Given the map size and relatively short rush distances on Xel'Naga, Minigun anticipated IdrA's play by playing safely in a way. He chose the map after all, if he went 3G expand he would've probably lost to that roach&ling bust.
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On June 01 2011 11:20 Whiteman103 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:17 Azarkon wrote:On June 01 2011 11:15 Dexington wrote:On June 01 2011 11:10 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
T___T mingun allins, idra defends it, minigun expands and now idra is behind :/ The fuck? He did a 4 gate expand and defended Idra's all-in. Get out. Idra is way too predictable on that map. This is the second time his roach ling "all-in" was straight up countered on Xel'Naga (first time was against Tyler). mini countered it with a 4 gate expo. Tyler didnt counter it he did the 3 gate expo and held was good play but didnt "counter" it
IIRC, Tyler hid 3 stalkers in his base and showed only sentries and zealots just to goad Idra into doing this build. When I noticed that I thought to myself, "shit, nice mind game there Tyler." And Tyler being known for his mind games, I think he was expecting it and countering it.
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On June 01 2011 11:20 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:19 Blasphemi wrote:On June 01 2011 11:16 hi_0 wrote:
I don't understand why people always say "sick FF's". All u gotta do is make sentries and then drop the forcefields, what could idra have done against that. FF everytime he wants to fight almost endlessly. Either burrow under the forcefields, get Ultras, get broods to make them attack head on or baneling drop over the forcefields. A Zerg has options and running your units into the forcefields is not one of them. You listed 0 options that were viable in that last game.
Burrow and bane drops weren't options? Also defending and waiting for t3 wasn't an option at all (of course you can come up with a situation where it wouldn't work... but it wasn't a reasonable option)?
Whatever... IdrA is playing in a very predictable manner and he lost to a strategy that is good against his strategy.
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On June 01 2011 11:22 KvltMan wrote:
And as usual, this becomes a balance-discussion.
I love me some IdrA, I'm a proud IdrA-fan that'll always support him. But seriously, why does it become such a big deal when he loses?
Read the TL-article about sAviOr, when life gives you lemons, you squirt lemon juice in someone's eyes You rise up to the challenge and bend the rules.. That's where we as fans should be standing with IdrA, not whine and invent excuses for him.
Savior didn't have to put up with forcefields on small maps like this... =\
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On June 01 2011 11:20 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:19 Blasphemi wrote:On June 01 2011 11:16 hi_0 wrote:
I don't understand why people always say "sick FF's". All u gotta do is make sentries and then drop the forcefields, what could idra have done against that. FF everytime he wants to fight almost endlessly. Either burrow under the forcefields, get Ultras, get broods to make them attack head on or baneling drop over the forcefields. A Zerg has options and running your units into the forcefields is not one of them. You listed 0 options that were viable in that last game.
The burrow and banes were 100% viable in that last game and the reason the other two weren't is because Idra had already long since thrown the game away with his failed roach/ling all in.
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On June 01 2011 11:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:19 Jyvblamo wrote:On June 01 2011 11:16 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:14 Jyvblamo wrote:On June 01 2011 11:14 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:12 Mordiford wrote:On June 01 2011 11:11 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:10 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
T___T mingun allins, idra defends it, minigun expands and now idra is behind :/ You got it backwards. Minigun expands, IdrA all ins and doesn't do enough damage with it and is behind. Yeah, what game were you watching? I'm pretty sure Minigun was the defender with IdrA streaming in units... the one where minigun 4gated and then attacked with a zealot and a bunch of sentries Did you notice the part where his natural expansion was already up when his sentries and zealots reached Idra's front? well then why the hell did he push out with a fuckton of expensive units, and build an aggro pylon? the good old make nothing but sentries and try to kill the zerg build? He put on pressure with those units because Idra rarely makes many units at that point in the game, to force units (which worked). At that point he forced Idra to make a hard decision, go all in by staying on even base with Toss and making units, or make just enough to defend and try to extend the game by taking a third. On June 01 2011 11:18 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:14 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:12 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:11 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:10 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
T___T mingun allins, idra defends it, minigun expands and now idra is behind :/ You got it backwards. Minigun expands, IdrA all ins and doesn't do enough damage with it and is behind. you missed the part where minigun 4gated and tried to be aggressive with it, forcing idra to make those units which were basically useless against forcefields You have never seen a player put on a bit of pressure? That's just good game play. He moved forward and instantly pulled back as he expanded. potentially sacrificing all your expensive as fuck units is good gameplay now? You don't always move out with your army with the intention of killing the enemy. so pretty much you can move out whenever you want because you have forcefields, and put the zerg behind instantly...?
only puts the zerg behind if they make 50 lings and attack move them
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On June 01 2011 11:21 neoenigma wrote:
Minigun isn't anywhere close to Idra's level. This BS wasn't in Brood War. Forcefields make it impossible for ground units to engage on maps like this.
Sure, it was silly for Idra to engage there, but what else could he do on that map?
Every game with forcefields make me less of a fan of SC2. They make for boring games. I hated them when I saw them in Beta... and it hasn't changed since then.
Please don't.
I could name several things he could have done differently. You don't deserve to win if you make shitty decisions.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
ROOT loves trolling EG so much. Gotta love that they back up their talk with good play.
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On June 01 2011 11:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:19 Jyvblamo wrote:On June 01 2011 11:16 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:14 Jyvblamo wrote:On June 01 2011 11:14 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:12 Mordiford wrote:On June 01 2011 11:11 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:10 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
T___T mingun allins, idra defends it, minigun expands and now idra is behind :/ You got it backwards. Minigun expands, IdrA all ins and doesn't do enough damage with it and is behind. Yeah, what game were you watching? I'm pretty sure Minigun was the defender with IdrA streaming in units... the one where minigun 4gated and then attacked with a zealot and a bunch of sentries Did you notice the part where his natural expansion was already up when his sentries and zealots reached Idra's front? well then why the hell did he push out with a fuckton of expensive units, and build an aggro pylon? the good old make nothing but sentries and try to kill the zerg build? He put on pressure with those units because Idra rarely makes many units at that point in the game, to force units (which worked). At that point he forced Idra to make a hard decision, go all in by staying on even base with Toss and making units, or make just enough to defend and try to extend the game by taking a third. On June 01 2011 11:18 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:14 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:12 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:11 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:10 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
T___T mingun allins, idra defends it, minigun expands and now idra is behind :/ You got it backwards. Minigun expands, IdrA all ins and doesn't do enough damage with it and is behind. you missed the part where minigun 4gated and tried to be aggressive with it, forcing idra to make those units which were basically useless against forcefields You have never seen a player put on a bit of pressure? That's just good game play. He moved forward and instantly pulled back as he expanded. potentially sacrificing all your expensive as fuck units is good gameplay now? You don't always move out with your army with the intention of killing the enemy. so pretty much you can move out whenever you want because you have forcefields, and put the zerg behind instantly...?
Yeah, there's no risk to moving out with 450/700 worth of snow globes in the middle of the map.
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On June 01 2011 11:20 ThaZenith wrote:You're an idiot. Too bad IdrA played terrible today. Much, much to aggressive into force fields during all 3 games. In that third game, if he had played it even 20% less aggressive at the start he would have taken it right there. But he kept engaging with half his force, and then ran in lings in pairs into minigun's ball for no reason. Had hoped IdrA would have done more burrow/drop play to deal with FF's, ah well.
Why am I an idiot? Idra played way way worse than he is capable off and was smashed by minigun, then proceded to ragequit. This after trash talking him a lot in ladder where they met for 3 games earlier and minigun brutalized him by 3-0. Does that not make him an asshole ? ;>
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KiwiKaki with the extended thermal lance no collosus build. Standard.
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On June 01 2011 11:23 ccHaZaRd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:19 Jyvblamo wrote:On June 01 2011 11:16 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:14 Jyvblamo wrote:On June 01 2011 11:14 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:12 Mordiford wrote:On June 01 2011 11:11 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:10 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
T___T mingun allins, idra defends it, minigun expands and now idra is behind :/ You got it backwards. Minigun expands, IdrA all ins and doesn't do enough damage with it and is behind. Yeah, what game were you watching? I'm pretty sure Minigun was the defender with IdrA streaming in units... the one where minigun 4gated and then attacked with a zealot and a bunch of sentries Did you notice the part where his natural expansion was already up when his sentries and zealots reached Idra's front? well then why the hell did he push out with a fuckton of expensive units, and build an aggro pylon? the good old make nothing but sentries and try to kill the zerg build? He put on pressure with those units because Idra rarely makes many units at that point in the game, to force units (which worked). At that point he forced Idra to make a hard decision, go all in by staying on even base with Toss and making units, or make just enough to defend and try to extend the game by taking a third. On June 01 2011 11:18 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:14 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:12 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:11 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:10 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
T___T mingun allins, idra defends it, minigun expands and now idra is behind :/ You got it backwards. Minigun expands, IdrA all ins and doesn't do enough damage with it and is behind. you missed the part where minigun 4gated and tried to be aggressive with it, forcing idra to make those units which were basically useless against forcefields You have never seen a player put on a bit of pressure? That's just good game play. He moved forward and instantly pulled back as he expanded. potentially sacrificing all your expensive as fuck units is good gameplay now? You don't always move out with your army with the intention of killing the enemy. so pretty much you can move out whenever you want because you have forcefields, and put the zerg behind instantly...? only puts the zerg behind if they make 50 lings and attack move them
you mean, doing what you have to do in order to defend the allin that this "pressure" could very well be?
On June 01 2011 11:24 AndAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:19 Jyvblamo wrote:On June 01 2011 11:16 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:14 Jyvblamo wrote:On June 01 2011 11:14 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:12 Mordiford wrote:On June 01 2011 11:11 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:10 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
T___T mingun allins, idra defends it, minigun expands and now idra is behind :/ You got it backwards. Minigun expands, IdrA all ins and doesn't do enough damage with it and is behind. Yeah, what game were you watching? I'm pretty sure Minigun was the defender with IdrA streaming in units... the one where minigun 4gated and then attacked with a zealot and a bunch of sentries Did you notice the part where his natural expansion was already up when his sentries and zealots reached Idra's front? well then why the hell did he push out with a fuckton of expensive units, and build an aggro pylon? the good old make nothing but sentries and try to kill the zerg build? He put on pressure with those units because Idra rarely makes many units at that point in the game, to force units (which worked). At that point he forced Idra to make a hard decision, go all in by staying on even base with Toss and making units, or make just enough to defend and try to extend the game by taking a third. On June 01 2011 11:18 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:14 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:12 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On June 01 2011 11:11 Chicane wrote:On June 01 2011 11:10 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
T___T mingun allins, idra defends it, minigun expands and now idra is behind :/ You got it backwards. Minigun expands, IdrA all ins and doesn't do enough damage with it and is behind. you missed the part where minigun 4gated and tried to be aggressive with it, forcing idra to make those units which were basically useless against forcefields You have never seen a player put on a bit of pressure? That's just good game play. He moved forward and instantly pulled back as he expanded. potentially sacrificing all your expensive as fuck units is good gameplay now? You don't always move out with your army with the intention of killing the enemy. so pretty much you can move out whenever you want because you have forcefields, and put the zerg behind instantly...? Yeah, there's no risk to moving out with 450/700 worth of snow globes in the middle of the map.
I'm saying that it's a huge risk -____________- but other people are saying it's good gameplay which I don't understand
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On June 01 2011 11:20 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:18 bluestuff wrote:
forcefields are just abysmal from a game design perspective, and completly mitigating the micro from the player facing them So does stasis from broodwar
On a super-expensive unit endgame unit that costs a ton of energy, and it requires an expensive and long research first.
On June 01 2011 11:20 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:18 bluestuff wrote:
forcefields are just abysmal from a game design perspective, and completly mitigating the micro from the player facing them lockdown from broodwar
Single target, can only affect a limited range of units, on a very expensive lategame unit and costs a ton of energy and requires an expensive and long research.
On June 01 2011 11:20 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:18 bluestuff wrote:
forcefields are just abysmal from a game design perspective, and completly mitigating the micro from the player facing them fungal from infestors
On an expensive midgame unit, can be microed against by splitting units, higher energy cost coupled with tiny duration and high infestor cost means you're never going to fungal nearly as many units as sentries can force field.
On June 01 2011 11:20 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:18 bluestuff wrote:
forcefields are just abysmal from a game design perspective, and completly mitigating the micro from the player facing them and concussive shell from marauders
Which is also a terribly designed ability.
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And TL goes to war everytime IdrA loses -.-
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On June 01 2011 11:23 neoenigma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 11:22 KvltMan wrote:
And as usual, this becomes a balance-discussion.
I love me some IdrA, I'm a proud IdrA-fan that'll always support him. But seriously, why does it become such a big deal when he loses?
Read the TL-article about sAviOr, when life gives you lemons, you squirt lemon juice in someone's eyes You rise up to the challenge and bend the rules.. That's where we as fans should be standing with IdrA, not whine and invent excuses for him. Savior didn't have to put up with forcefields on small maps like this... =\
sAviOr fought through map-imbalances during z's darkest time. I kind of look at IdrA the same way, but he can't progress if everyone that really likes him invent excuses, he himself said that he can work on his attitude, and we should encourage that, rather than help enabling him.
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