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On May 05 2011 13:21 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 13:18 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:14 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:11 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:08 Executor1 wrote:
I am glad they did address the lag issue on SOTG i agree that the TSL sentiment that there wasnt any lag in korea vs EU was pretty annoying. That was the one time where i actually agreed with idra last night. It is annoying. So many people clearly have no idea how much lag affects performance - not just actual micro, but also morale, confidence, and concentration. I see so many fallacious counterpoints to try to "disprove" lag, such as, "Oh, but *player in Korea* played so well, I don't see how there could be lag", which doesn't disprove lag at all - it only goes to make the player in Korea look really good. It makes my head hurt, so I'm glad they addressed it on SOTG (oh, and anyone arguing with me seems to be conveniently ignoring that fact - the fact that several high-profile pros explicitly came out and said that the lag is a big factor, IdrA going as far as saying that it's a huge handicap and he doesn't play in international tournaments from Korea just because of that). You are overplaying it, plain and simple. I don't care how crisp Artosis' connection is, Fenix is simply a better player, along with every other player Artosis has played so far. That's not to say Artosis is a bad player, he's just playing really, really good players. The result may have been closer, but there's a lot of room for it to be closer. Maybe we should also take into consideration whether a player also woke up on the wrong side of the bed and how that affects their morale, confidence, and concentration? Or maybe we should look at the medications they are taking and see what the side effects are? There's a line you have to draw at giving players excuses. Sure, there is a line. You seem to be implying that "lag" as an excuse lies beyond that line, which is simply ludicrous. Lag is a very measurable, provable, real thing, unlike "woke up on the wrong side of bed" and such. And having performance other than micro being affected by lag is a natural logical leap to make. Don't strawman me by mentioning that Fenix is a better player, because I'm not saying that he isn't. I completely agree with you that the result may have been closer if there wasn't lag, and I agree that Fenix probably would have won anyway. That's not the issue here. The issue is seeing so many people going "Oh, he doesn't deserve to be here, he's a terrible player" without looking at the big picture or listening to reason. Implying lag affected his performance in such a significant way as we saw, is ludicrous. There is just no way you can know that. Sure, it can affect someone in that way, but there a BILLION things that can affect someone's performance.
How is there no way to know if lag (something measurable, real, and handicapping according to IdrA and Tyler last night) affected performance significantly? You're trying to take something completely measurable and detectable and saying that there's no way for us to know how much it affects play. That's ridiculous. I can't believe I even have to argue this, after people on SotG clarified that it is a significant factor.
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I watched artosis play on his stream on the KOR server and he had like 1500/500 off of 2 base with a third going up...
Same thing, different server.
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On May 05 2011 13:25 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 13:21 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:18 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:14 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:11 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:08 Executor1 wrote:
I am glad they did address the lag issue on SOTG i agree that the TSL sentiment that there wasnt any lag in korea vs EU was pretty annoying. That was the one time where i actually agreed with idra last night. It is annoying. So many people clearly have no idea how much lag affects performance - not just actual micro, but also morale, confidence, and concentration. I see so many fallacious counterpoints to try to "disprove" lag, such as, "Oh, but *player in Korea* played so well, I don't see how there could be lag", which doesn't disprove lag at all - it only goes to make the player in Korea look really good. It makes my head hurt, so I'm glad they addressed it on SOTG (oh, and anyone arguing with me seems to be conveniently ignoring that fact - the fact that several high-profile pros explicitly came out and said that the lag is a big factor, IdrA going as far as saying that it's a huge handicap and he doesn't play in international tournaments from Korea just because of that). You are overplaying it, plain and simple. I don't care how crisp Artosis' connection is, Fenix is simply a better player, along with every other player Artosis has played so far. That's not to say Artosis is a bad player, he's just playing really, really good players. The result may have been closer, but there's a lot of room for it to be closer. Maybe we should also take into consideration whether a player also woke up on the wrong side of the bed and how that affects their morale, confidence, and concentration? Or maybe we should look at the medications they are taking and see what the side effects are? There's a line you have to draw at giving players excuses. Sure, there is a line. You seem to be implying that "lag" as an excuse lies beyond that line, which is simply ludicrous. Lag is a very measurable, provable, real thing, unlike "woke up on the wrong side of bed" and such. And having performance other than micro being affected by lag is a natural logical leap to make. Don't strawman me by mentioning that Fenix is a better player, because I'm not saying that he isn't. I completely agree with you that the result may have been closer if there wasn't lag, and I agree that Fenix probably would have won anyway. That's not the issue here. The issue is seeing so many people going "Oh, he doesn't deserve to be here, he's a terrible player" without looking at the big picture or listening to reason. Implying lag affected his performance in such a significant way as we saw, is ludicrous. There is just no way you can know that. Sure, it can affect someone in that way, but there a BILLION things that can affect someone's performance. How is there no way to know if lag (something measurable, real, and handicapping according to IdrA and Tyler last night) affected performance significantly? You're trying to take something completely measurable and detectable and saying that there's no way for us to know how much it affects play. That's ridiculous. I can't believe I even have to argue this, after people on SotG clarified that it is a significant factor.
Alright, please prove to me that lag played in significant role in Artosis' series. Have you interviewed him? Were you actually controlling the keyboard and mouse?
Lag, in a measurable way, affects how long it takes between you input a command and when that command takes place. If you tell a gateway to warp in a unit, it's going to warp-in a unit, just a few seconds later. If you neglect to tell a gateway to do that, it won't do it. Nothing to do with lag.
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On May 05 2011 13:22 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 13:11 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:08 Executor1 wrote:
I am glad they did address the lag issue on SOTG i agree that the TSL sentiment that there wasnt any lag in korea vs EU was pretty annoying. That was the one time where i actually agreed with idra last night. It is annoying. So many people clearly have no idea how much lag affects performance - not just actual micro, but also morale, confidence, and concentration. I see so many fallacious counterpoints to try to "disprove" lag, such as, "Oh, but *player in Korea* played so well, I don't see how there could be lag", which doesn't disprove lag at all - it only goes to make the player in Korea look really good. It makes my head hurt, so I'm glad they addressed it on SOTG (oh, and anyone arguing with me seems to be conveniently ignoring that fact - the fact that several high-profile pros explicitly came out and said that the lag is a big factor, IdrA going as far as saying that it's a huge handicap and he doesn't play in international tournaments from Korea just because of that). Okay. Let's just say that lag plays a huge role - I should still point out that Artosis has yet to take a game in NASL after 8 games. How much of this is lag? Obviously, you aren't him so you can't give us an exact quantification but please, put a number on it. 60%? 80%? What is Artosis's true skill level? How much can't we see? What I'm saying is, yes, lag affects him. We've heard you. But you can't excuse everything, can you? We all saw MC blow away Thorzain's Ghosts with half a dozen Feedbacks in 1 second during TSL 3. We saw Ace take 3 sets out of 3, without dropping a game. Lag matters, I'm 100% certain. But why can't you acknowledge a skill gap?
Actually, in another post, I did acknowledge the skillgap.
Something I need to clarify is that I'm not trying to argue that Artosis should have won, or that he's better than his opponents. I'm simply trying to argue for more understanding regarding lag, due to how many "Oh, Artosis sucks, this is completely inexcusable, he's playing like a Plat player" comments I'm seeing here. That's the ONLY point I'm trying to make right now.
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Well if people want to argue that he plays like a Masters level player...
They'd be right. 
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If only Artosis had been able to get ahead at any point, he'd get so much further ahead. It's the initial aheadness that's the stumbling block for him.
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On May 05 2011 13:26 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 13:22 slyboogie wrote:On May 05 2011 13:11 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:08 Executor1 wrote:
I am glad they did address the lag issue on SOTG i agree that the TSL sentiment that there wasnt any lag in korea vs EU was pretty annoying. That was the one time where i actually agreed with idra last night. It is annoying. So many people clearly have no idea how much lag affects performance - not just actual micro, but also morale, confidence, and concentration. I see so many fallacious counterpoints to try to "disprove" lag, such as, "Oh, but *player in Korea* played so well, I don't see how there could be lag", which doesn't disprove lag at all - it only goes to make the player in Korea look really good. It makes my head hurt, so I'm glad they addressed it on SOTG (oh, and anyone arguing with me seems to be conveniently ignoring that fact - the fact that several high-profile pros explicitly came out and said that the lag is a big factor, IdrA going as far as saying that it's a huge handicap and he doesn't play in international tournaments from Korea just because of that). Okay. Let's just say that lag plays a huge role - I should still point out that Artosis has yet to take a game in NASL after 8 games. How much of this is lag? Obviously, you aren't him so you can't give us an exact quantification but please, put a number on it. 60%? 80%? What is Artosis's true skill level? How much can't we see? What I'm saying is, yes, lag affects him. We've heard you. But you can't excuse everything, can you? We all saw MC blow away Thorzain's Ghosts with half a dozen Feedbacks in 1 second during TSL 3. We saw Ace take 3 sets out of 3, without dropping a game. Lag matters, I'm 100% certain. But why can't you acknowledge a skill gap? Actually, in another post, I did acknowledge the skillgap. Something I need to clarify is that I'm not trying to argue that Artosis should have won, or that he's better than his opponents. I'm simply trying to argue for more understanding regarding lag, due to how many "Oh, Artosis sucks, this is completely inexcusable, he's playing like a Plat player" comments I'm seeing here. That's the ONLY point I'm trying to make right now.
He is obviously capable of far more than he showed us tonight. I just don't think lag really would've made a big difference in how he played. It's okay to have a bad night. Any respectable player isn't going to solely blame basic mistakes on lag.
People saying he's garbage, etc, are just uninformed.
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out of the 5 players who i really wanted to win (it wasnt just favourites, they are players i follow) 5 lost.
Moon TLO Grubby KiWi and Artosis. 
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On May 05 2011 13:26 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 13:25 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:21 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:18 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:14 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:11 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:08 Executor1 wrote:
I am glad they did address the lag issue on SOTG i agree that the TSL sentiment that there wasnt any lag in korea vs EU was pretty annoying. That was the one time where i actually agreed with idra last night. It is annoying. So many people clearly have no idea how much lag affects performance - not just actual micro, but also morale, confidence, and concentration. I see so many fallacious counterpoints to try to "disprove" lag, such as, "Oh, but *player in Korea* played so well, I don't see how there could be lag", which doesn't disprove lag at all - it only goes to make the player in Korea look really good. It makes my head hurt, so I'm glad they addressed it on SOTG (oh, and anyone arguing with me seems to be conveniently ignoring that fact - the fact that several high-profile pros explicitly came out and said that the lag is a big factor, IdrA going as far as saying that it's a huge handicap and he doesn't play in international tournaments from Korea just because of that). You are overplaying it, plain and simple. I don't care how crisp Artosis' connection is, Fenix is simply a better player, along with every other player Artosis has played so far. That's not to say Artosis is a bad player, he's just playing really, really good players. The result may have been closer, but there's a lot of room for it to be closer. Maybe we should also take into consideration whether a player also woke up on the wrong side of the bed and how that affects their morale, confidence, and concentration? Or maybe we should look at the medications they are taking and see what the side effects are? There's a line you have to draw at giving players excuses. Sure, there is a line. You seem to be implying that "lag" as an excuse lies beyond that line, which is simply ludicrous. Lag is a very measurable, provable, real thing, unlike "woke up on the wrong side of bed" and such. And having performance other than micro being affected by lag is a natural logical leap to make. Don't strawman me by mentioning that Fenix is a better player, because I'm not saying that he isn't. I completely agree with you that the result may have been closer if there wasn't lag, and I agree that Fenix probably would have won anyway. That's not the issue here. The issue is seeing so many people going "Oh, he doesn't deserve to be here, he's a terrible player" without looking at the big picture or listening to reason. Implying lag affected his performance in such a significant way as we saw, is ludicrous. There is just no way you can know that. Sure, it can affect someone in that way, but there a BILLION things that can affect someone's performance. How is there no way to know if lag (something measurable, real, and handicapping according to IdrA and Tyler last night) affected performance significantly? You're trying to take something completely measurable and detectable and saying that there's no way for us to know how much it affects play. That's ridiculous. I can't believe I even have to argue this, after people on SotG clarified that it is a significant factor. Alright, please prove to me that lag played in significant role in Artosis' series. Have you interviewed him? Were you actually controlling the keyboard and mouse?
You're trying to make yourself look credible by asking me unfair questions. I have no need to give such evidence - the evidence is all out there already without needing to be specific to Artosis.
1. Firsthand accounts and testimonies of lag being a severe handicap (said by IdrA and agreed upon by Tyler on SotG)
2. Measurable numbers that indicate latency which don't even need player testimonials to be used as evidence
To make an analogy, let's say there was a badminton match between two players, and one player had a pretty severely sprained ankle. He plays badly, and I insist that a sprained ankle is a big handicap. You're essentially telling me that we don't know for sure whether or not the sprained ankle was a big handicap without asking the player directly, even though everyone knows a sprained ankle hinders movement, causes pain that cuts into concentration, and any other pro player would say that it's a big deal. You see the absurdity? A firsthand account from Artosis is unneeded.
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On May 05 2011 13:31 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 13:26 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:25 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:21 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:18 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:14 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:11 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:08 Executor1 wrote:
I am glad they did address the lag issue on SOTG i agree that the TSL sentiment that there wasnt any lag in korea vs EU was pretty annoying. That was the one time where i actually agreed with idra last night. It is annoying. So many people clearly have no idea how much lag affects performance - not just actual micro, but also morale, confidence, and concentration. I see so many fallacious counterpoints to try to "disprove" lag, such as, "Oh, but *player in Korea* played so well, I don't see how there could be lag", which doesn't disprove lag at all - it only goes to make the player in Korea look really good. It makes my head hurt, so I'm glad they addressed it on SOTG (oh, and anyone arguing with me seems to be conveniently ignoring that fact - the fact that several high-profile pros explicitly came out and said that the lag is a big factor, IdrA going as far as saying that it's a huge handicap and he doesn't play in international tournaments from Korea just because of that). You are overplaying it, plain and simple. I don't care how crisp Artosis' connection is, Fenix is simply a better player, along with every other player Artosis has played so far. That's not to say Artosis is a bad player, he's just playing really, really good players. The result may have been closer, but there's a lot of room for it to be closer. Maybe we should also take into consideration whether a player also woke up on the wrong side of the bed and how that affects their morale, confidence, and concentration? Or maybe we should look at the medications they are taking and see what the side effects are? There's a line you have to draw at giving players excuses. Sure, there is a line. You seem to be implying that "lag" as an excuse lies beyond that line, which is simply ludicrous. Lag is a very measurable, provable, real thing, unlike "woke up on the wrong side of bed" and such. And having performance other than micro being affected by lag is a natural logical leap to make. Don't strawman me by mentioning that Fenix is a better player, because I'm not saying that he isn't. I completely agree with you that the result may have been closer if there wasn't lag, and I agree that Fenix probably would have won anyway. That's not the issue here. The issue is seeing so many people going "Oh, he doesn't deserve to be here, he's a terrible player" without looking at the big picture or listening to reason. Implying lag affected his performance in such a significant way as we saw, is ludicrous. There is just no way you can know that. Sure, it can affect someone in that way, but there a BILLION things that can affect someone's performance. How is there no way to know if lag (something measurable, real, and handicapping according to IdrA and Tyler last night) affected performance significantly? You're trying to take something completely measurable and detectable and saying that there's no way for us to know how much it affects play. That's ridiculous. I can't believe I even have to argue this, after people on SotG clarified that it is a significant factor. Alright, please prove to me that lag played in significant role in Artosis' series. Have you interviewed him? Were you actually controlling the keyboard and mouse? You're trying to make yourself look credible by asking me unfair questions. I have no need to give such evidence - the evidence is all out there already without needing to be specific to Artosis. 1. Firsthand accounts and testimonies of lag being a severe handicap (said by IdrA and agreed upon by Tyler on SotG) 2. Measurable numbers that indicate latency which don't even need player testimonials to be used as evidence To make an analogy, let's say there was a badminton match between two players, and one player had a pretty severely sprained ankle. He plays badly, and I insist that a sprained ankle is a big handicap. You're essentially telling me that we don't know for sure whether or not the sprained ankle was a big handicap without asking the player directly, even though everyone knows a sprained ankle hinders movement, causes pain that cuts into concentration, and any other pro player would say that it's a big deal. You see the absurdity? A firsthand account from Artosis is unneeded.
That's not a good analogy. A strained ankle is obviously going to affect every part of that person's ability to play badminton. It's fundamental. Latency affects the time between input and what actually happens. You cant still outplay an opponent and make good decisions with lag. It would play a far bigger role in close games which neither of these were. You don't see other players playing with lag making such huge mistakes.
I could guarantee you Artosis would not blame his result on lag.
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On May 05 2011 13:33 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 13:31 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:26 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:25 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:21 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:18 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:14 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:11 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:08 Executor1 wrote:
I am glad they did address the lag issue on SOTG i agree that the TSL sentiment that there wasnt any lag in korea vs EU was pretty annoying. That was the one time where i actually agreed with idra last night. It is annoying. So many people clearly have no idea how much lag affects performance - not just actual micro, but also morale, confidence, and concentration. I see so many fallacious counterpoints to try to "disprove" lag, such as, "Oh, but *player in Korea* played so well, I don't see how there could be lag", which doesn't disprove lag at all - it only goes to make the player in Korea look really good. It makes my head hurt, so I'm glad they addressed it on SOTG (oh, and anyone arguing with me seems to be conveniently ignoring that fact - the fact that several high-profile pros explicitly came out and said that the lag is a big factor, IdrA going as far as saying that it's a huge handicap and he doesn't play in international tournaments from Korea just because of that). You are overplaying it, plain and simple. I don't care how crisp Artosis' connection is, Fenix is simply a better player, along with every other player Artosis has played so far. That's not to say Artosis is a bad player, he's just playing really, really good players. The result may have been closer, but there's a lot of room for it to be closer. Maybe we should also take into consideration whether a player also woke up on the wrong side of the bed and how that affects their morale, confidence, and concentration? Or maybe we should look at the medications they are taking and see what the side effects are? There's a line you have to draw at giving players excuses. Sure, there is a line. You seem to be implying that "lag" as an excuse lies beyond that line, which is simply ludicrous. Lag is a very measurable, provable, real thing, unlike "woke up on the wrong side of bed" and such. And having performance other than micro being affected by lag is a natural logical leap to make. Don't strawman me by mentioning that Fenix is a better player, because I'm not saying that he isn't. I completely agree with you that the result may have been closer if there wasn't lag, and I agree that Fenix probably would have won anyway. That's not the issue here. The issue is seeing so many people going "Oh, he doesn't deserve to be here, he's a terrible player" without looking at the big picture or listening to reason. Implying lag affected his performance in such a significant way as we saw, is ludicrous. There is just no way you can know that. Sure, it can affect someone in that way, but there a BILLION things that can affect someone's performance. How is there no way to know if lag (something measurable, real, and handicapping according to IdrA and Tyler last night) affected performance significantly? You're trying to take something completely measurable and detectable and saying that there's no way for us to know how much it affects play. That's ridiculous. I can't believe I even have to argue this, after people on SotG clarified that it is a significant factor. Alright, please prove to me that lag played in significant role in Artosis' series. Have you interviewed him? Were you actually controlling the keyboard and mouse? You're trying to make yourself look credible by asking me unfair questions. I have no need to give such evidence - the evidence is all out there already without needing to be specific to Artosis. 1. Firsthand accounts and testimonies of lag being a severe handicap (said by IdrA and agreed upon by Tyler on SotG) 2. Measurable numbers that indicate latency which don't even need player testimonials to be used as evidence To make an analogy, let's say there was a badminton match between two players, and one player had a pretty severely sprained ankle. He plays badly, and I insist that a sprained ankle is a big handicap. You're essentially telling me that we don't know for sure whether or not the sprained ankle was a big handicap without asking the player directly, even though everyone knows a sprained ankle hinders movement, causes pain that cuts into concentration, and any other pro player would say that it's a big deal. You see the absurdity? A firsthand account from Artosis is unneeded. That's not a good analogy. A strained ankle is obviously going to affect every part of that person's ability to play badminton. It's fundamental. Latency affects the time between input and what actually happens. It would play a far bigger role in close games which neither of these were. You don't see other players playing with lag making such huge mistakes.
Affecting a player's ability to control units in a game that's all about controlling units seems pretty fundamental to me, and like I said, it's also demoralizing and cuts into concentration (obviously, the onus is upon the player to deal with not getting "psyched out" by lag, but it would annoy any good player who knows that he's playing below his capabilities because of some handicap). If I were to play devil's advocate to my badminton analogy, I could argue that a pro should have to just ignore the pain from the sprained ankle and play well regardless (mind over matter, right?), but that's just not how people are. People lose concentration and get frustrated. (obviously Artosis would not blame his results on lag because that makes him look like he's making excuses, but it doesn't mean that it didn't make a significant difference. For example, just because Genius didn't blame his loss to qxc to lag doesn't mean that lag affected his forcefields and psi storms throughout the game, which was huge)
Anyway if you'd like to discuss this more feel free to PM me, but I need to resume my studying for my finals >_<
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Artosis is simply outplayed, and outclassed. I am a huge Artosis fan, but even I am not blinded by fan-boyism. He just isnt at the skill level to be playing in the NASL yet.
As for those of you saying its lag....HAH! Did you see the mistakes he made in the 3 games? Pulling his probe line into 6 marines when he had 8 stalkers? Not chrono boosting? He cracked in game 1 COMPLETELY. He just needs a lot more practice time. Remember these other guys have been playing since launch everyday nonstop. Artosis has been playing since 2 weeks before NASL.
Artosis needs more practice, a lot more.
All that being said he is an amazing commentator and great coach.
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Lag doesn't make you macro bad. End of story.
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On May 05 2011 13:33 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 13:31 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:26 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:25 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:21 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:18 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:14 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:11 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:08 Executor1 wrote:
I am glad they did address the lag issue on SOTG i agree that the TSL sentiment that there wasnt any lag in korea vs EU was pretty annoying. That was the one time where i actually agreed with idra last night. It is annoying. So many people clearly have no idea how much lag affects performance - not just actual micro, but also morale, confidence, and concentration. I see so many fallacious counterpoints to try to "disprove" lag, such as, "Oh, but *player in Korea* played so well, I don't see how there could be lag", which doesn't disprove lag at all - it only goes to make the player in Korea look really good. It makes my head hurt, so I'm glad they addressed it on SOTG (oh, and anyone arguing with me seems to be conveniently ignoring that fact - the fact that several high-profile pros explicitly came out and said that the lag is a big factor, IdrA going as far as saying that it's a huge handicap and he doesn't play in international tournaments from Korea just because of that). You are overplaying it, plain and simple. I don't care how crisp Artosis' connection is, Fenix is simply a better player, along with every other player Artosis has played so far. That's not to say Artosis is a bad player, he's just playing really, really good players. The result may have been closer, but there's a lot of room for it to be closer. Maybe we should also take into consideration whether a player also woke up on the wrong side of the bed and how that affects their morale, confidence, and concentration? Or maybe we should look at the medications they are taking and see what the side effects are? There's a line you have to draw at giving players excuses. Sure, there is a line. You seem to be implying that "lag" as an excuse lies beyond that line, which is simply ludicrous. Lag is a very measurable, provable, real thing, unlike "woke up on the wrong side of bed" and such. And having performance other than micro being affected by lag is a natural logical leap to make. Don't strawman me by mentioning that Fenix is a better player, because I'm not saying that he isn't. I completely agree with you that the result may have been closer if there wasn't lag, and I agree that Fenix probably would have won anyway. That's not the issue here. The issue is seeing so many people going "Oh, he doesn't deserve to be here, he's a terrible player" without looking at the big picture or listening to reason. Implying lag affected his performance in such a significant way as we saw, is ludicrous. There is just no way you can know that. Sure, it can affect someone in that way, but there a BILLION things that can affect someone's performance. How is there no way to know if lag (something measurable, real, and handicapping according to IdrA and Tyler last night) affected performance significantly? You're trying to take something completely measurable and detectable and saying that there's no way for us to know how much it affects play. That's ridiculous. I can't believe I even have to argue this, after people on SotG clarified that it is a significant factor. Alright, please prove to me that lag played in significant role in Artosis' series. Have you interviewed him? Were you actually controlling the keyboard and mouse? You're trying to make yourself look credible by asking me unfair questions. I have no need to give such evidence - the evidence is all out there already without needing to be specific to Artosis. 1. Firsthand accounts and testimonies of lag being a severe handicap (said by IdrA and agreed upon by Tyler on SotG) 2. Measurable numbers that indicate latency which don't even need player testimonials to be used as evidence To make an analogy, let's say there was a badminton match between two players, and one player had a pretty severely sprained ankle. He plays badly, and I insist that a sprained ankle is a big handicap. You're essentially telling me that we don't know for sure whether or not the sprained ankle was a big handicap without asking the player directly, even though everyone knows a sprained ankle hinders movement, causes pain that cuts into concentration, and any other pro player would say that it's a big deal. You see the absurdity? A firsthand account from Artosis is unneeded. That's not a good analogy. A strained ankle is obviously going to affect every part of that person's ability to play badminton. It's fundamental. Latency affects the time between input and what actually happens. You cant still outplay an opponent and make good decisions with lag. It would play a far bigger role in close games which neither of these were. You don't see other players playing with lag making such huge mistakes. I could guarantee you Artosis would not blame his result on lag.
dont talk about what you dont understand, playing in latency throws everything off. its a massive distraction and it forces you to play different styles. especially for protoss, you literally cannot depend on forcefielding correctly and half of protoss' game is built around forcefield. not to mention the actual direct handicap of not being able to micro as well as your opponent.
results of players playing cross server with korea are absolutely meaningless
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On May 05 2011 13:41 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 13:33 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:31 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:26 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:25 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:21 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:18 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:14 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:11 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:08 Executor1 wrote:
I am glad they did address the lag issue on SOTG i agree that the TSL sentiment that there wasnt any lag in korea vs EU was pretty annoying. That was the one time where i actually agreed with idra last night. It is annoying. So many people clearly have no idea how much lag affects performance - not just actual micro, but also morale, confidence, and concentration. I see so many fallacious counterpoints to try to "disprove" lag, such as, "Oh, but *player in Korea* played so well, I don't see how there could be lag", which doesn't disprove lag at all - it only goes to make the player in Korea look really good. It makes my head hurt, so I'm glad they addressed it on SOTG (oh, and anyone arguing with me seems to be conveniently ignoring that fact - the fact that several high-profile pros explicitly came out and said that the lag is a big factor, IdrA going as far as saying that it's a huge handicap and he doesn't play in international tournaments from Korea just because of that). You are overplaying it, plain and simple. I don't care how crisp Artosis' connection is, Fenix is simply a better player, along with every other player Artosis has played so far. That's not to say Artosis is a bad player, he's just playing really, really good players. The result may have been closer, but there's a lot of room for it to be closer. Maybe we should also take into consideration whether a player also woke up on the wrong side of the bed and how that affects their morale, confidence, and concentration? Or maybe we should look at the medications they are taking and see what the side effects are? There's a line you have to draw at giving players excuses. Sure, there is a line. You seem to be implying that "lag" as an excuse lies beyond that line, which is simply ludicrous. Lag is a very measurable, provable, real thing, unlike "woke up on the wrong side of bed" and such. And having performance other than micro being affected by lag is a natural logical leap to make. Don't strawman me by mentioning that Fenix is a better player, because I'm not saying that he isn't. I completely agree with you that the result may have been closer if there wasn't lag, and I agree that Fenix probably would have won anyway. That's not the issue here. The issue is seeing so many people going "Oh, he doesn't deserve to be here, he's a terrible player" without looking at the big picture or listening to reason. Implying lag affected his performance in such a significant way as we saw, is ludicrous. There is just no way you can know that. Sure, it can affect someone in that way, but there a BILLION things that can affect someone's performance. How is there no way to know if lag (something measurable, real, and handicapping according to IdrA and Tyler last night) affected performance significantly? You're trying to take something completely measurable and detectable and saying that there's no way for us to know how much it affects play. That's ridiculous. I can't believe I even have to argue this, after people on SotG clarified that it is a significant factor. Alright, please prove to me that lag played in significant role in Artosis' series. Have you interviewed him? Were you actually controlling the keyboard and mouse? You're trying to make yourself look credible by asking me unfair questions. I have no need to give such evidence - the evidence is all out there already without needing to be specific to Artosis. 1. Firsthand accounts and testimonies of lag being a severe handicap (said by IdrA and agreed upon by Tyler on SotG) 2. Measurable numbers that indicate latency which don't even need player testimonials to be used as evidence To make an analogy, let's say there was a badminton match between two players, and one player had a pretty severely sprained ankle. He plays badly, and I insist that a sprained ankle is a big handicap. You're essentially telling me that we don't know for sure whether or not the sprained ankle was a big handicap without asking the player directly, even though everyone knows a sprained ankle hinders movement, causes pain that cuts into concentration, and any other pro player would say that it's a big deal. You see the absurdity? A firsthand account from Artosis is unneeded. That's not a good analogy. A strained ankle is obviously going to affect every part of that person's ability to play badminton. It's fundamental. Latency affects the time between input and what actually happens. You cant still outplay an opponent and make good decisions with lag. It would play a far bigger role in close games which neither of these were. You don't see other players playing with lag making such huge mistakes. I could guarantee you Artosis would not blame his result on lag. dont talk about what you dont understand, playing in latency throws everything off. its a massive distraction and it forces you to play different styles. especially for protoss, you literally cannot depend on forcefielding correctly and half of protoss' game is built around forcefield. not to mention the actual direct handicap of not being able to micro as well as your opponent. results of players playing cross server with korea are absolutely meaningless
I understand it significantly affects micro to the point where you basically have no control and that the games are pretty much meaningless. I heard you say that last night on SOTG and I agree. I just don't see how it would make you macro badly, that's all I'm saying. It's nothing against Artosis. Hell, I'd love for Artosis to win.
Kind of off-topic, but I support your argument with Day9 about the fundamental game problems. Nice to see someone not backing down to Day's kind of dodgy answers.
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You can say the results are meaningless, but that doesn't change the bad decisions we have seen made in probably every game he has played in the NASL.
At best the lag affected his concentration and put him on tilt/flustered him. At worst it just exacerbated his bad play (which sadly isn't great on his stream either).
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I don't see why people are needing to be so critical of Artosis's play. He was a fan favorite and got voted into the NASL. Not by tournament results, not by being a part of a big named team. He is an undeniable fan favorite, he doesn't have the same amount of free time as the other competitors to practice this game.
People want to see him win, because he is such a valued person of this community. I will continue to support him even after sloppy games, because he has the eye of the tiger!
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On May 05 2011 13:44 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 13:41 IdrA wrote:On May 05 2011 13:33 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:31 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:26 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:25 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:21 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:18 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:14 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:11 HolyArrow wrote:
[quote]
It is annoying. So many people clearly have no idea how much lag affects performance - not just actual micro, but also morale, confidence, and concentration. I see so many fallacious counterpoints to try to "disprove" lag, such as, "Oh, but *player in Korea* played so well, I don't see how there could be lag", which doesn't disprove lag at all - it only goes to make the player in Korea look really good.
It makes my head hurt, so I'm glad they addressed it on SOTG (oh, and anyone arguing with me seems to be conveniently ignoring that fact - the fact that several high-profile pros explicitly came out and said that the lag is a big factor, IdrA going as far as saying that it's a huge handicap and he doesn't play in international tournaments from Korea just because of that). You are overplaying it, plain and simple. I don't care how crisp Artosis' connection is, Fenix is simply a better player, along with every other player Artosis has played so far. That's not to say Artosis is a bad player, he's just playing really, really good players. The result may have been closer, but there's a lot of room for it to be closer. Maybe we should also take into consideration whether a player also woke up on the wrong side of the bed and how that affects their morale, confidence, and concentration? Or maybe we should look at the medications they are taking and see what the side effects are? There's a line you have to draw at giving players excuses. Sure, there is a line. You seem to be implying that "lag" as an excuse lies beyond that line, which is simply ludicrous. Lag is a very measurable, provable, real thing, unlike "woke up on the wrong side of bed" and such. And having performance other than micro being affected by lag is a natural logical leap to make. Don't strawman me by mentioning that Fenix is a better player, because I'm not saying that he isn't. I completely agree with you that the result may have been closer if there wasn't lag, and I agree that Fenix probably would have won anyway. That's not the issue here. The issue is seeing so many people going "Oh, he doesn't deserve to be here, he's a terrible player" without looking at the big picture or listening to reason. Implying lag affected his performance in such a significant way as we saw, is ludicrous. There is just no way you can know that. Sure, it can affect someone in that way, but there a BILLION things that can affect someone's performance. How is there no way to know if lag (something measurable, real, and handicapping according to IdrA and Tyler last night) affected performance significantly? You're trying to take something completely measurable and detectable and saying that there's no way for us to know how much it affects play. That's ridiculous. I can't believe I even have to argue this, after people on SotG clarified that it is a significant factor. Alright, please prove to me that lag played in significant role in Artosis' series. Have you interviewed him? Were you actually controlling the keyboard and mouse? You're trying to make yourself look credible by asking me unfair questions. I have no need to give such evidence - the evidence is all out there already without needing to be specific to Artosis. 1. Firsthand accounts and testimonies of lag being a severe handicap (said by IdrA and agreed upon by Tyler on SotG) 2. Measurable numbers that indicate latency which don't even need player testimonials to be used as evidence To make an analogy, let's say there was a badminton match between two players, and one player had a pretty severely sprained ankle. He plays badly, and I insist that a sprained ankle is a big handicap. You're essentially telling me that we don't know for sure whether or not the sprained ankle was a big handicap without asking the player directly, even though everyone knows a sprained ankle hinders movement, causes pain that cuts into concentration, and any other pro player would say that it's a big deal. You see the absurdity? A firsthand account from Artosis is unneeded. That's not a good analogy. A strained ankle is obviously going to affect every part of that person's ability to play badminton. It's fundamental. Latency affects the time between input and what actually happens. You cant still outplay an opponent and make good decisions with lag. It would play a far bigger role in close games which neither of these were. You don't see other players playing with lag making such huge mistakes. I could guarantee you Artosis would not blame his result on lag. dont talk about what you dont understand, playing in latency throws everything off. its a massive distraction and it forces you to play different styles. especially for protoss, you literally cannot depend on forcefielding correctly and half of protoss' game is built around forcefield. not to mention the actual direct handicap of not being able to micro as well as your opponent. results of players playing cross server with korea are absolutely meaningless I understand it significantly affects micro to the point where you basically have no control and that the games are pretty much meaningless. I heard you say that last night on SOTG and I agree. I just don't see how it would make you macro badly, that's all I'm saying. It's nothing against Artosis. Kind of off-topic, but I support your argument with Day9. Nice to see someone not backing down to Day's kind of dodgy answers.
Actually, you'd be surprised how much it can affect your ability to macro, I know from laddering v practicing in single player v ai how much it throws me going from 250ms down to none, I often find myself slipping on macro when i go back to ladder because things just don't respond the way you want and slips are alot easier to make.
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On May 05 2011 13:41 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 13:33 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:31 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:26 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:25 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:21 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:18 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:14 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:11 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:08 Executor1 wrote:
I am glad they did address the lag issue on SOTG i agree that the TSL sentiment that there wasnt any lag in korea vs EU was pretty annoying. That was the one time where i actually agreed with idra last night. It is annoying. So many people clearly have no idea how much lag affects performance - not just actual micro, but also morale, confidence, and concentration. I see so many fallacious counterpoints to try to "disprove" lag, such as, "Oh, but *player in Korea* played so well, I don't see how there could be lag", which doesn't disprove lag at all - it only goes to make the player in Korea look really good. It makes my head hurt, so I'm glad they addressed it on SOTG (oh, and anyone arguing with me seems to be conveniently ignoring that fact - the fact that several high-profile pros explicitly came out and said that the lag is a big factor, IdrA going as far as saying that it's a huge handicap and he doesn't play in international tournaments from Korea just because of that). You are overplaying it, plain and simple. I don't care how crisp Artosis' connection is, Fenix is simply a better player, along with every other player Artosis has played so far. That's not to say Artosis is a bad player, he's just playing really, really good players. The result may have been closer, but there's a lot of room for it to be closer. Maybe we should also take into consideration whether a player also woke up on the wrong side of the bed and how that affects their morale, confidence, and concentration? Or maybe we should look at the medications they are taking and see what the side effects are? There's a line you have to draw at giving players excuses. Sure, there is a line. You seem to be implying that "lag" as an excuse lies beyond that line, which is simply ludicrous. Lag is a very measurable, provable, real thing, unlike "woke up on the wrong side of bed" and such. And having performance other than micro being affected by lag is a natural logical leap to make. Don't strawman me by mentioning that Fenix is a better player, because I'm not saying that he isn't. I completely agree with you that the result may have been closer if there wasn't lag, and I agree that Fenix probably would have won anyway. That's not the issue here. The issue is seeing so many people going "Oh, he doesn't deserve to be here, he's a terrible player" without looking at the big picture or listening to reason. Implying lag affected his performance in such a significant way as we saw, is ludicrous. There is just no way you can know that. Sure, it can affect someone in that way, but there a BILLION things that can affect someone's performance. How is there no way to know if lag (something measurable, real, and handicapping according to IdrA and Tyler last night) affected performance significantly? You're trying to take something completely measurable and detectable and saying that there's no way for us to know how much it affects play. That's ridiculous. I can't believe I even have to argue this, after people on SotG clarified that it is a significant factor. Alright, please prove to me that lag played in significant role in Artosis' series. Have you interviewed him? Were you actually controlling the keyboard and mouse? You're trying to make yourself look credible by asking me unfair questions. I have no need to give such evidence - the evidence is all out there already without needing to be specific to Artosis. 1. Firsthand accounts and testimonies of lag being a severe handicap (said by IdrA and agreed upon by Tyler on SotG) 2. Measurable numbers that indicate latency which don't even need player testimonials to be used as evidence To make an analogy, let's say there was a badminton match between two players, and one player had a pretty severely sprained ankle. He plays badly, and I insist that a sprained ankle is a big handicap. You're essentially telling me that we don't know for sure whether or not the sprained ankle was a big handicap without asking the player directly, even though everyone knows a sprained ankle hinders movement, causes pain that cuts into concentration, and any other pro player would say that it's a big deal. You see the absurdity? A firsthand account from Artosis is unneeded. That's not a good analogy. A strained ankle is obviously going to affect every part of that person's ability to play badminton. It's fundamental. Latency affects the time between input and what actually happens. You cant still outplay an opponent and make good decisions with lag. It would play a far bigger role in close games which neither of these were. You don't see other players playing with lag making such huge mistakes. I could guarantee you Artosis would not blame his result on lag. dont talk about what you dont understand, playing in latency throws everything off. its a massive distraction and it forces you to play different styles. especially for protoss, you literally cannot depend on forcefielding correctly and half of protoss' game is built around forcefield. not to mention the actual direct handicap of not being able to micro as well as your opponent. results of players playing cross server with korea are absolutely meaningless
Thanks - exactly what I've been trying to say the entire time. Even if people don't believe me, they'll hopefully be more inclined to listen to you.
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On May 05 2011 13:47 Skithiryx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 13:44 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:41 IdrA wrote:On May 05 2011 13:33 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:31 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:26 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:25 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:21 Uhh Negative wrote:On May 05 2011 13:18 HolyArrow wrote:On May 05 2011 13:14 Uhh Negative wrote:
[quote]
You are overplaying it, plain and simple. I don't care how crisp Artosis' connection is, Fenix is simply a better player, along with every other player Artosis has played so far. That's not to say Artosis is a bad player, he's just playing really, really good players. The result may have been closer, but there's a lot of room for it to be closer.
Maybe we should also take into consideration whether a player also woke up on the wrong side of the bed and how that affects their morale, confidence, and concentration? Or maybe we should look at the medications they are taking and see what the side effects are? There's a line you have to draw at giving players excuses. Sure, there is a line. You seem to be implying that "lag" as an excuse lies beyond that line, which is simply ludicrous. Lag is a very measurable, provable, real thing, unlike "woke up on the wrong side of bed" and such. And having performance other than micro being affected by lag is a natural logical leap to make. Don't strawman me by mentioning that Fenix is a better player, because I'm not saying that he isn't. I completely agree with you that the result may have been closer if there wasn't lag, and I agree that Fenix probably would have won anyway. That's not the issue here. The issue is seeing so many people going "Oh, he doesn't deserve to be here, he's a terrible player" without looking at the big picture or listening to reason. Implying lag affected his performance in such a significant way as we saw, is ludicrous. There is just no way you can know that. Sure, it can affect someone in that way, but there a BILLION things that can affect someone's performance. How is there no way to know if lag (something measurable, real, and handicapping according to IdrA and Tyler last night) affected performance significantly? You're trying to take something completely measurable and detectable and saying that there's no way for us to know how much it affects play. That's ridiculous. I can't believe I even have to argue this, after people on SotG clarified that it is a significant factor. Alright, please prove to me that lag played in significant role in Artosis' series. Have you interviewed him? Were you actually controlling the keyboard and mouse? You're trying to make yourself look credible by asking me unfair questions. I have no need to give such evidence - the evidence is all out there already without needing to be specific to Artosis. 1. Firsthand accounts and testimonies of lag being a severe handicap (said by IdrA and agreed upon by Tyler on SotG) 2. Measurable numbers that indicate latency which don't even need player testimonials to be used as evidence To make an analogy, let's say there was a badminton match between two players, and one player had a pretty severely sprained ankle. He plays badly, and I insist that a sprained ankle is a big handicap. You're essentially telling me that we don't know for sure whether or not the sprained ankle was a big handicap without asking the player directly, even though everyone knows a sprained ankle hinders movement, causes pain that cuts into concentration, and any other pro player would say that it's a big deal. You see the absurdity? A firsthand account from Artosis is unneeded. That's not a good analogy. A strained ankle is obviously going to affect every part of that person's ability to play badminton. It's fundamental. Latency affects the time between input and what actually happens. You cant still outplay an opponent and make good decisions with lag. It would play a far bigger role in close games which neither of these were. You don't see other players playing with lag making such huge mistakes. I could guarantee you Artosis would not blame his result on lag. dont talk about what you dont understand, playing in latency throws everything off. its a massive distraction and it forces you to play different styles. especially for protoss, you literally cannot depend on forcefielding correctly and half of protoss' game is built around forcefield. not to mention the actual direct handicap of not being able to micro as well as your opponent. results of players playing cross server with korea are absolutely meaningless I understand it significantly affects micro to the point where you basically have no control and that the games are pretty much meaningless. I heard you say that last night on SOTG and I agree. I just don't see how it would make you macro badly, that's all I'm saying. It's nothing against Artosis. Kind of off-topic, but I support your argument with Day9. Nice to see someone not backing down to Day's kind of dodgy answers. Actually, you'd be surprised how much it can affect your ability to macro, I know from laddering v practicing in single player v ai how much it throws me going from 250ms down to none, I often find myself slipping on macro when i go back to ladder because things just don't respond the way you want and slips are alot easier to make.
When I played SC2 for the few months I played, I was playing on a tablet, that's like the definition of laggy play, lol, getting like 10-15 fps. The lag itself didn't cause me to forget injects, make units, etc, it just made it a little more difficult to do.
Oh well, no big deal. I feel like this is a pointless argument as it doesn't matter either way.
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EPT
