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On May 03 2011 23:47 Yaotzin wrote:
Yes certainly true. I'd have it as Terran > Protoss > Zerg. I think the level of unit control in general is pretty appalling though. Stuck zealots, templar/infestors walking into deathballs. Even Terran players, despite having it easy with all ranged units, don't impress me at all with attempted viking/collo snipes and such.
Big area of improvement for pros to make IMO.
Agree 100%
I'd like an explanation as to why players are so bad at this micro. We see amazing marine splits vs banelings. We see great zergling surrounds. We see sick medivac drops vs forcefields and stuff.
But why the hell do we see infestors running into lines of marines EVER?
I'm gonna tweet artosis and tell him to ask the next team coach he interviews right now.
I MAD.
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Yeah, zergs players (on average) have the worst unit control in the game, in nearly every LR threads we talk about it because it's just shocking (like the infestors in game 1, total facepalm moment,). I don't know where this comes from, and I guess it will be less and less true with time, but except idra/morrow/july/(nestea ?), most zerg micro and "combat management" is just horrible.
Big J, you talk about stuff that NECESSITATE micro. Yeah, zerg race needs good micro, no, the average zerg programer (koreans included) doesn't have good micro (that's an understatement, most are plain awful in battle decisions, even July in his serie vs anypro when he let his roaches hug the forcefields for 15 seconds while being freely shot at was sad, he had burrow move, that would never happen to a T player)
And to add some, most of your statements are extremely subjective, to the point of complete bias (like comparing marine and baneling micro or including inject in micro, or talking about burrow micro like if anyone used it, which is not the case (unless you think burrow moving under a force field is a hard micro trick to pull....burrowing targeted roaches to micro a fight would be nice micro, but no zerg does it, which is another argument against your point))
Yes, a lot of this micro is hard (like baneling micro), but programers are mostly awful in it (banes to tanks, to thors is as common as banes to marines). Is the marine micro displayed in the average TvZ less impressive than the baneling micro ? You can't answer yes to that (I hope). Is it harder ? Perhaps, but that was not the point.
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Man I was going to bet sC, but both Losira and sC had sub 50% win/rates against each other's race 
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I had to leave after sC won the first game and now that I come back the results are surprising me, 3-0 didn't see that coming at all :O. Gogo Nestea!
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On May 04 2011 00:49 MrCon wrote:
Yeah, zergs players (on average) have the worst unit control in the game, in nearly every LR threads we talk about it because it's just shocking (like the infestors in game 1, total facepalm moment,). I don't know where this comes from, and I guess it will be less and less true with time, but except idra/morrow/july/(nestea ?), most zerg micro and "combat management" is just horrible.
Big J, you talk about stuff that NECESSITATE micro. Yeah, zerg race needs good micro, no, the average zerg programer (koreans included) doesn't have good micro (that's an understatement, most are plain awful in battle decisions, even July in his serie vs anypro when he let his roaches hug the forcefields for 15 seconds while being freely shot at was sad, he had burrow move, that would never happen to a T player)
And to add some, most of your statements are extremely subjective, to the point of complete bias (like comparing marine and baneling micro or including inject in micro, or talking about burrow micro like if anyone used it, which is not the case (unless you think burrow moving under a force field is a hard micro trick to pull....burrowing targeted roaches to micro a fight would be nice micro, but no zerg does it, which is another argument against your point))
Yes, a lot of this micro is hard (like baneling micro), but programers are mostly awful in it (banes to tanks, to thors is as common as banes to marines). Is the marine micro displayed in the average TvZ less impressive than the baneling micro ? You can't answer yes to that (I hope). Is it harder ? Perhaps, but that was not the point.
I was afraid to mention poor zerg army management, but it is really common. Min and viOlet both went fast broods against MVP and hit their timing perfectly (little to no vikings out upon reveal.) However, both times I watch them push out sloppily and lose their initial broodlords. Then MVP gets out enough vikings and gg.
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On May 04 2011 00:09 Big J wrote:
that post is just crap... Just because most of the zerg units dont have funky blink,FF,stim and whatever micro abilities that doesn't mean zergs have bad unit control.
No, but they do nonetheless!
baneling splits take more micro than marine splits
burrow micro is at least as hard as blink micro, but way less effective (not a QQ, just a fact why we don't see a lot of fancy roach burrow micro...)
muta harass takes a lot of micro
unit spreading takes a lot of micro
injecting during a battle takes some micro (and a lot of focus)
There are 2 areas where I feel like slapping pro Zerg players. Firstly, most of them DON'T show this difficult micro. Yeah, it's hard. But these are professional Zerg players. It's their job to do the hard stuff. I see far too many banelings exploding on tanks, or chasing small groups of split off marines or whatever. Even the shlub Terrans have OK marine splits, while some of the best Zerg players don't split their blings.
Then there's the straight up awful control, like walking 6 infestors into a marine stack because you have them on the same control group as your ling/bling. There's no excusing this at all. It would be bad play from a random diamond player. To see it from a professional is just appalling.
This isn't a pop at Zerg players in particular. Protoss players piss me off just as much with their godawful control - clumping sentries and templar with ghosts on the field, trapping zealots behind stalkers, colossi wandering off to get sniped etc etc.
I just find professional level unit control very, very unimpressive on the whole. Very occasionally they show glimpses of what's possible, but man is it rare. More often than not they control their units pretty much exactly like I do. And that's not good ^_^
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Only zergs who impressed me with micro of their meelee units are the fruitdealer and kyrix.
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Losira has said himself that he plays Zerg because it "doesn't require much micro", see the IM house interview Artosis did.
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The reason why we dont fight with our workers at the start of the game is because the better player knows that he can tech to marines/ling/zealots and they will own the workers. The reason why marine/ling/zealot battles shouldn't last 10 mins because the better player would tech to next tier and own the marine/ling/zealot. In the case of sc vs Losira game 1, Losira was able to tech and hold off the on comming aggression but I just don't think there was a zerg unit from tier 2 that would help in a situation like his. Sure infestors are great against marines but they are way too dependent on the energy and your opponent keeping marines together into a ball.
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Losira nooooooooooo, why you ruining my liquibets :@
Ah well atleast one of my favs went through 
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On May 03 2011 20:10 Moonwrath wrote:Stop whining about a zerg player losing to bunker all in. Cheese is part of the game ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YKFPi.gif)
ROFL what match was this from?
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On May 04 2011 01:49 Like a Boss wrote:
The reason why we dont fight with our workers at the start of the game is because the better player knows that he can tech to marines/ling/zealots and they will own the workers. The reason why marine/ling/zealot battles shouldn't last 10 mins because the better player would tech to next tier and own the marine/ling/zealot. In the case of sc vs Losira game 1, Losira was able to tech and hold off the on comming aggression but I just don't think there was a zerg unit from tier 2 that would help in a situation like his. Sure infestors are great against marines but they are way too dependent on the energy and your opponent keeping marines together into a ball.
Please get this mindset out of your brain. The Tier 1<Tier 2<Tier 3 setup that MANY RTS games do have, is simply not present in starcraft. All losira needed to clean up the marines is better infestor, zergling and baneling micro. Simple as that.
This idea of "well marines are Tier 1 so they should get stomped after 10 minutes into the game, this is dumb" is simply bad. Ever watch BW? There's a TvZ style called SK Terran, and guess what you make ALL GAME LONG....marine and medic. BW is the greatest game ever, and if they could make marines all game long and keep their effectiveness, then that's just how shit rolls.
Where the hell do people get this idea that the Tier relationship MUST hold true for the game to work? So god damn bad.
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People don't seem to realize just how stupid a unit like the infestor is to micro. It's huge and pretty squishy.
I haven't seen Losira's games, so I assume he really fucked up, by infestors, especially when going up against Colossi/Tanks are one of the stupidest units in the game when microing.
(Not hard per say, just stupid)
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On May 04 2011 02:39 1Eris1 wrote:
People don't seem to realize just how stupid a unit like the infestor is to micro. It's huge and pretty squishy.
I haven't seen Losira's games, so I assume he really fucked up, by infestors, especially when going up against Colossi/Tanks are one of the stupidest units in the game when microing.
(Not hard per say, just stupid)
He attacked marines lines with infestors leading the charge and tanking for the lings :D
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
On May 04 2011 02:39 1Eris1 wrote:
People don't seem to realize just how stupid a unit like the infestor is to micro. It's huge and pretty squishy.
I haven't seen Losira's games, so I assume he really fucked up, by infestors, especially when going up against Colossi/Tanks are one of the stupidest units in the game when microing.
(Not hard per say, just stupid)
He lost them to marines, which is peoples main annoyance.
In a throwback to Kyrix vs MKP on shakuras, sC rallied in almost pure marines (16 at a time, no medivacs, but some marauders) off 2 base and, with some good micro, kept Losira under constant pressure both at his nat and his third.
Losira had ling/bane/roach/infestors out and got off some decent fungals, but repeatedly just A moved his infestors forwards with the rest of his units while fungalling so they ran up onto the remaining/rallying bio with 0 energy, flailed around for a while, and then got slaughtered helplessly.
Had he fungalled and pulled them back, allowing them to sit in the back and regen energy between waves, he'd have had a lot more fungals available in the long run and may well have held off the constant barrage of attacks completely.
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On May 04 2011 02:37 N3rV[Green] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 01:49 Like a Boss wrote:
The reason why we dont fight with our workers at the start of the game is because the better player knows that he can tech to marines/ling/zealots and they will own the workers. The reason why marine/ling/zealot battles shouldn't last 10 mins because the better player would tech to next tier and own the marine/ling/zealot. In the case of sc vs Losira game 1, Losira was able to tech and hold off the on comming aggression but I just don't think there was a zerg unit from tier 2 that would help in a situation like his. Sure infestors are great against marines but they are way too dependent on the energy and your opponent keeping marines together into a ball. Please get this mindset out of your brain. The Tier 1<Tier 2<Tier 3 setup that MANY RTS games do have, is simply not present in starcraft. All losira needed to clean up the marines is better infestor, zergling and baneling micro. Simple as that. This idea of "well marines are Tier 1 so they should get stomped after 10 minutes into the game, this is dumb" is simply bad. Ever watch BW? There's a TvZ style called SK Terran, and guess what you make ALL GAME LONG....marine and medic. BW is the greatest game ever, and if they could make marines all game long and keep their effectiveness, then that's just how shit rolls. Where the hell do people get this idea that the Tier relationship MUST hold true for the game to work? So god damn bad.
SCfOu's game 1 strategy was an incredibly boring and shallow strategy that is much, much more difficult to defend than it is to execute. People want to see amazing depth from pro gamers - knowing when to tech, when to switch tech, how much to make, when to attack, when to defend, etc. If Losira made mistakes (which he did) it was game over. If sC made a mistake, he had a four barracks walloff protecting his base and the ability to build tons of bunkers to defend with
sC didn't even make a factory until game 3.
I'm not saying it's an illegitimate strategy and that it's unstoppable or imbalanced, but it's frustrating as a spectator to see a progamer use a strategy that has no strategical depth to it and win against a player who defended it rather well by using plenty of different units and strategies, all to no avail because the marines just kept streaming in and Losira didn't defend it absolutely perfectly.
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France13023 Posts
On May 04 2011 02:39 1Eris1 wrote:
People don't seem to realize just how stupid a unit like the infestor is to micro. It's huge and pretty squishy.
I haven't seen Losira's games, so I assume he really fucked up, by infestors, especially when going up against Colossi/Tanks are one of the stupidest units in the game when microing.
(Not hard per say, just stupid)
The main problem was at the "first" big encounter : he didn't flank with sync, so he ended up losing far too much, and things went worse and worse for him since sC was continually attacking with waves of 16 marines.
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oh my god.......... sC is LEGITT!!!
I always thought he was "anypro, san, jinro, huk" level (some good runs but not very good)
yes, i know i put jinro in there. he is a GREAT player but he is just not performing.
I thought LosirA was unstoppable and nobody but maybe Nestea could stop him. pretty cool
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So NaDa is indeed genious. Keeping up 3.0+ GPA on his college and also doing a very good job on a league. o.O
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i think the reason the Losira first game is disappointing is that it's just annoying to see someone produce pretty much the same unit over and over, Losira gets what I think is the natural counters banelings and infestors (i'm not a Zerg player, I could be wrong here), and this still loses.
I got no beef with SC, you should always play to win (and Losira has danced in the face of a losing opponent before, so no beef with the BM). I just find it sad to watch, it looked to me like Losira had to micro so much harder and have a better unit tech/mix, and still he couldn't stop it. saw a similar game Huk vs Drewbie (?) a while ago where Drewbie went mass marauders, and Huk had to massively outmicro him to win. I have noticed Losira's mistakes with infestors, but I cant see how he could have beaten SC without playing continuously flawlessly.
I don't really like a single unit en masse being so viable for so long, and so it makes me QQ to watch  sorry for whine post, just really disappoint by that game.
EDIT: I wanted to add, for a note of positivity, that I didn't find the first game (or the Huk-Drewbie game I mentioned) BORING at all, constant action is great.
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EPT
