a marine split takes a lot of micro
an equal baneling split takes the same, but you can only start it once the terran has started to split his marines, else you dont know in which directions to split your banelings

On May 04 2011 00:32 Goibon wrote:
But why the hell do we see infestors running into lines of marines EVER?

becaus even progamers have limited micro abilities, and a newly spawned infestor that used his fungal turns useless for 2-3mins, thats why in pressure situations like those, when losira defended, counterattacked and tried to intercept reinforcments at the same time, he doesnt have more than a few clicks to tell some zerglings to attack some marines, if by accident he boxes an infestor with them, the infestor will run into them too.
it's a serious waste of ressources but except for the first infestor, non of the others would have been able to fungal again in this game I believe, but I would have to rewatch it and check the times to be sure.

And to add some, most of your statements are extremely subjective, to the point of complete bias (like comparing marine and baneling micro or including inject in micro,

I do include inbattle injection to micro, because queens injections produce 6/10 of the zergs larva. A race that is designed to produce combat units "just in time"(zerg) having those larva is as crucial as for the race that has the slowest reinforcments (terran) to keep it's fighting units alive for as long as possible (shoot and scoot). If you miss an triple injection for 10starcraft seconds (3base zerg like in losiras case) you not only get your units later, but you will have ~5larva less for the rest of the game.

or talking about burrow micro like if anyone used it, which is not the case (unless you think burrow moving under a force field is a hard micro trick to pull....burrowing targeted roaches to micro a fight would be nice micro, but no zerg does it, which is another argument against your point))

yes Im referring to single burrow micro, and here are arguments why it is not used:
I have tried (and still try) using this kind of roachburrow micro in my ZvZs and ZvPs. it is OK (and I made a post about that on TL, that you can actually safe up to 20% of your roaches in small or mediumsized battles), but far less effective than blink micro:
- blink denies shots that are fired on the target, burrow not
- blinked stalkers keep on doing damage, burrowed roaches not
- "sloppily" blinking more than one stalker is no big mistake, "sloppily" burrowing more roaches than the wounded ones make you lose a lot of dps
- blink works instantly, burrow still allows more shots to be fired at the target, which means you cant let your roach get into the red before you burrow it, or it will die most of the time while burrowing

Note: the above should in no way be a statement about any imbalance or something like that, it should simply by an argumentation why this kind of micro just might not be effective compared to the amount of focus it takes. (still I will try to improve in it) It refers to my original post, about Zerg micro being harder/less effective/less impressive/more hidden, and therefore being seen less often. (again, not an imbalance whine, just a zerg characteristic)

Yes, a lot of this micro is hard (like baneling micro), but programers are mostly awful in it (banes to tanks, to thors is as common as banes to marines). Is the marine micro displayed in the average TvZ less impressive than the baneling micro ? You can't answer yes to that (I hope). Is it harder ? Perhaps, but that was not the point.

I don't say it's less impressive, but I have never seen anyone go like: "wow this zergplayer killed so many marines even though they were perfectly split and run faster then banelings when stimmed". all I hear/read is: "amazing marine split", "perfect marine micro", "good unit placement", "perfect Forcefields", "extreme blink micro","beautiful storm" and noone ever talks about what zergs have to do to still win battles in which a terran/protoss micros perfectly.

This isn't a pop at Zerg players in particular. Protoss players piss me off just as much with their godawful control - clumping sentries and templar with ghosts on the field, trapping zealots behind stalkers, colossi wandering off to get sniped etc etc.

yes, that's why I say Zergs dont micro worse than Terrans and protoss.
Just take hellions as an example: Top got ruined by Nadas hellions today because he clumped workers.
I don't know how often I have seen Terrans trying to stim through a choke with a sentry waiting behind, how often terrans lose banshees because they try to get 1more kill, how often marines run clumped up into siege lines or infestors.
Look how often terrans actually stop but dont shoot with units like vikings and hellions that are not as easy micro like marines.
drops getting lost because they were not pulled back fast enough.

I guess Im no the only one, that could give further examples for any race and nearly every player.

to sum up what I want to say: Zergs micro a lot too (at least they do things that I refer to as micro), mostly it just doesn't look as impressive as with P/T or it just isn't really effective that's why Zerg Players skip it and use their apm for counterattacks, injections, interceptions, harass, decision making instead

phisku

Belgium864 Posts

May 03 2011 19:04 GMT

#1770

On May 04 2011 03:47 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I just watched game 1 and noticed that Losira didn't have his infestors on a separate hotkey. Do most pro zergs not hotkey them separately?

he said that even the stim is too hard so he switched to zerg because it's only A move, i guess infestor is too hard 2 :D

TicketoHELL

Canada368 Posts

May 03 2011 19:19 GMT

#1771

Question! is both series epic to watch? i dont have time on weekdays to watch all so im planning to watch 1 or 2 games, but if the whole thing is epic might as well watch everything at once on weekend
i not a fan of spliting up series between days to watch it
your thoughts?

Benjef

United Kingdom6921 Posts

May 03 2011 19:24 GMT

#1772

Nice to see a FOU guy finally in the top 4 !

StarcraftKevin

United States285 Posts

May 03 2011 19:24 GMT

#1773

i put feather in your drink... lol

Itsmedudeman

United States19229 Posts

May 03 2011 19:26 GMT

#1774

none of the series as a whole were good, but there were a few games that were enjoyable like losira vs. sC game 1

and honestly, both those two rushes were holdable, I strongly dislike that losira opted to go a lot of banelings against a marine rush because when they're pressuring you that hard on 4 reactors with good splits it's hard to keep reproducing them; also ended up losing so many infestors after just 1 fungal... that's not cost effective

game 2 he really should've sent 2 drones right after the scv building the bunker but he seriously chased all the scvs/marines with all the drones/lings while the one scv had so much time to get that bunker up; if he sent 2 drones on that 1 scv and then chased he'd have held most likely

akaname

United Kingdom599 Posts

May 03 2011 19:26 GMT

#1775

On May 04 2011 04:19 TicketoHELL wrote:
Question! is both series epic to watch? i dont have time on weekdays to watch all so im planning to watch 1 or 2 games, but if the whole thing is epic might as well watch everything at once on weekend
i not a fan of spliting up series between days to watch it
your thoughts?

really enjoyed the first series, nada vs top. make sure you check it out.

Robje

Netherlands1044 Posts

May 03 2011 19:36 GMT

#1776

I think LosirA wasn't feeling 100% by the way, looking at him before the start of game1, he was adjusting his glasses for like a full minute, didn't look like him at all.

Anyway sad to see him lose in a 3-0, but he is very promising and if he works a bit on his terran game I am sure he can take Code S

MrCon

France29748 Posts

May 03 2011 19:40 GMT

#1777

The whole nada vs TOP is quite good, and the games aren't very long for TvT, so don't hesitate. Losira vs sC game 1 is very entertaining.

On_Slaught

United States12190 Posts

May 03 2011 19:42 GMT

#1778

People should stop defending "infestors into marine lines" stuff. It is indefensible. It is the result of lazy players putting them on the same hotkey as their army(sadly a byproduct of being able to group infinite units in this game).

You think Jaedong would run his infestors into suicidal deaths b/c they were on the same hotkey as his lings? Lol...

Mithriel

Netherlands2969 Posts

May 03 2011 19:46 GMT

#1779

O. M. G.

I soooooooooooo want Nada to fucking win this! Nada vs nestea final with a 4-3 score. That would be fucking amazing. Best birthday gift ever.

Leavzou

France156 Posts

May 03 2011 19:47 GMT

#1780

On May 04 2011 04:42 On_Slaught wrote:
People should stop defending "infestors into marine lines" stuff. It is indefensible. It is the result of lazy players putting them on the same hotkey as their army(sadly a byproduct of being able to group infinite units in this game).

You think Jaedong would run his infestors into suicidal deaths b/c they were on the same hotkey as his lings? Lol...

Do you really think it's lazyness from one of the best zergs in the world ?

It must be a troll.